C2 Engine Swap Opinions
09-02-2015, 12:31 PM
#1
C2 Engine Swap Opinions
Anyone care to share their pro/con C2 engine swap experiences ?
I live in the Long Island NY area.
Currently I have a 275-300HP carbed 350 with small Summit AL heads & Muncie 4 speed. I was thinking of stroking this engine. It does have all the chrome goodies. But by the time I get done doing that (sell my drivetrain at fair price) it may be in the same price range as a crate motor. I'm thinking 383 450HP would be nice. I'd back that up with a 5 speed Tremec.
I live in the Long Island NY area.
Currently I have a 275-300HP carbed 350 with small Summit AL heads & Muncie 4 speed. I was thinking of stroking this engine. It does have all the chrome goodies. But by the time I get done doing that (sell my drivetrain at fair price) it may be in the same price range as a crate motor. I'm thinking 383 450HP would be nice. I'd back that up with a 5 speed Tremec.
09-02-2015, 01:02 PM
#2
Race Director
I think the first step is to define what your objectives and expectations are. Do you want a highway cruiser? A stop light hole shot champ? High rpm power, or mid range torque? Fuel economy? Don't forget that the transmission and rear axle gearing makes as big an impact as the engine!
Which Muncie and what axle ratio do you have?
I've been through 3 engines in 44 years and 90k+ miles with my '67.
Original was a L79 327/350, Muncie CR, and 3.36 axle when I got it. I pulled the L79 (before NCRS/matching #s, etc) and put in a built 1970 LT-1 with shaved and ported/polished heads, LT headers, etc. That thing was a beast, good to 7500 rpm. The 12:1 CR became problematic in the 90s, and I shut it down for about 7 years.
12 years ago now I got it back together, went with a built ZZ4 - roller cam, roller rockers, worked heads, making about 400 hp. About 7 years ago I pulled the Muncie and put in a Tremec TKO 500.
I love the combo - lower first gear than the CR Muncie, OD 5th gear, plenty of torque and good high end rpm power. It does 2000 rpm at 70 mph and will get 22 mpg on a trip if I behave myself. If I don't want to behave there are always the lower gears........
If I was doing it today I'd probably go with a ZZ383 or something similar, and the 5 spd.
Which Muncie and what axle ratio do you have?
I've been through 3 engines in 44 years and 90k+ miles with my '67.
Original was a L79 327/350, Muncie CR, and 3.36 axle when I got it. I pulled the L79 (before NCRS/matching #s, etc) and put in a built 1970 LT-1 with shaved and ported/polished heads, LT headers, etc. That thing was a beast, good to 7500 rpm. The 12:1 CR became problematic in the 90s, and I shut it down for about 7 years.
12 years ago now I got it back together, went with a built ZZ4 - roller cam, roller rockers, worked heads, making about 400 hp. About 7 years ago I pulled the Muncie and put in a Tremec TKO 500.
I love the combo - lower first gear than the CR Muncie, OD 5th gear, plenty of torque and good high end rpm power. It does 2000 rpm at 70 mph and will get 22 mpg on a trip if I behave myself. If I don't want to behave there are always the lower gears........
If I was doing it today I'd probably go with a ZZ383 or something similar, and the 5 spd.
09-02-2015, 05:23 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Jan 2002
Location: Redondo Beach CA
Posts: 1,200
Received 61 Likes
on
50 Posts
C2 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
Like txnharley says, you need to know your objectives. There's no replacement for displacement, but how you drive and what you like will direct you toward low RPM torque or high RPM power. The 383 is nice and torquey, but if you want lots of grunt and the feeling of acceleration you can go bigger and stay a small block. There are 406, 421, and 434 kits out there for the 400 small block.
If you like to wind it out to 6500 or 7500, then you want short stroke instead of long, and want to look at 327, 352, or 377 kits.
If you like to wind it out to 6500 or 7500, then you want short stroke instead of long, and want to look at 327, 352, or 377 kits.
09-03-2015, 10:49 AM
#4
Thanks for the replies guys....I'm new to this forum. First time Stingray owner at 62 years old...yahoo !
At this time I'm considering rebuilding the stock rear which will include bigger half shafts.
A Tremec 500 or 600 is the transmission of choice especially for the 5th gear. If the first gear is 327 then the 500 would be cheaper. This car will not be raced and would only see an occasional red light burst. But I'd like respectable 450HP at 5800-6000rpm power. I have 295's out back and I am a big fan of MT DR's. If I was considering racing I'd opt for the longer Tremec 600 first gear and definitely a shop build balanced/BP'd motor with all forged internals. . I could see a 3.70 rear gear combo working well with a Tremec 500's first gear as this car will be driven but not beat on.
There's much to think about especially in the budget planning ! I was looking at a company called BluePrint engines which has it all from machining to engine dyno , cast or forged. Chevy Performance has some nice motors as well. I know with Ford stuff most crate motors are hyper pistons and not machine balanced builds.
At this time I'm considering rebuilding the stock rear which will include bigger half shafts.
A Tremec 500 or 600 is the transmission of choice especially for the 5th gear. If the first gear is 327 then the 500 would be cheaper. This car will not be raced and would only see an occasional red light burst. But I'd like respectable 450HP at 5800-6000rpm power. I have 295's out back and I am a big fan of MT DR's. If I was considering racing I'd opt for the longer Tremec 600 first gear and definitely a shop build balanced/BP'd motor with all forged internals. . I could see a 3.70 rear gear combo working well with a Tremec 500's first gear as this car will be driven but not beat on.
There's much to think about especially in the budget planning ! I was looking at a company called BluePrint engines which has it all from machining to engine dyno , cast or forged. Chevy Performance has some nice motors as well. I know with Ford stuff most crate motors are hyper pistons and not machine balanced builds.
09-03-2015, 12:22 PM
#5
Race Director
Congrats on your recent acquisition and welcome to the Forum!
Just some further thoughts on the trans gearing and axle ratio combinations -
With your 3.70 axle I think you might find the 3.27 1st gear of the TKO 500 results in an overall reduction ratio that is somewhat "short". 3.27 x 3.70 = 12.1. The ideal for street driving is said to be as close to 10.0 as possible. I tend to believe that advice, based on my experience, as follows.
I have a 3.36 axle, and with the 2.20 1st gear in my previous CR Muncie I was at 3.36 x 2.20 = 7.4. That was way too tall for good clean easy starts, especially on hills. I had to ether slip the clutch like crazy, lug/stall the engine, or light 'em up. The only good news was that 1st gear was good to about 65 mph!
Now with my TKO 500 I get 3.27 x 3.36 = 10.9, which is much easier to drive on the street. 1st gear is now good to about 45 mph.
So, I think with your 3.70 axle and for street driving you would be happier with the TKO 600 and its 1st gear of 2.87. That would give you an overall reduction of 2.87 x 3.70 = 10.6. Also with the TKO 600 you have a choice of 5th gears ratios of either .64 or .82. I'd go with the .64 for highway driving to get the biggest rpm drop when cruising. That combo ought to put you somewhere around 2100 rpm at 70 mph depending on your tire size etc.
Just some further thoughts on the trans gearing and axle ratio combinations -
With your 3.70 axle I think you might find the 3.27 1st gear of the TKO 500 results in an overall reduction ratio that is somewhat "short". 3.27 x 3.70 = 12.1. The ideal for street driving is said to be as close to 10.0 as possible. I tend to believe that advice, based on my experience, as follows.
I have a 3.36 axle, and with the 2.20 1st gear in my previous CR Muncie I was at 3.36 x 2.20 = 7.4. That was way too tall for good clean easy starts, especially on hills. I had to ether slip the clutch like crazy, lug/stall the engine, or light 'em up. The only good news was that 1st gear was good to about 65 mph!
Now with my TKO 500 I get 3.27 x 3.36 = 10.9, which is much easier to drive on the street. 1st gear is now good to about 45 mph.
So, I think with your 3.70 axle and for street driving you would be happier with the TKO 600 and its 1st gear of 2.87. That would give you an overall reduction of 2.87 x 3.70 = 10.6. Also with the TKO 600 you have a choice of 5th gears ratios of either .64 or .82. I'd go with the .64 for highway driving to get the biggest rpm drop when cruising. That combo ought to put you somewhere around 2100 rpm at 70 mph depending on your tire size etc.
Last edited by tuxnharley; 09-03-2015 at 07:39 PM. Reason: typo
09-04-2015, 08:22 AM
#6
Thanks Bud...I will follow your advice as I've also recently determined the 600's first gear (2.97) is optimal if I stay with the 3.70's which I will because then 2nd/3rd/4th will have more pull than a taller gear ratio. I also like the .64 OD ratio.
Yesterday was research day ! What puzzled me is the TKO 500 and 600 are the same price at every vendor ! I would have guessed the 500 to be a bit cheaper given the different torque ratios. I found Hurst makes a complete conversion package from Muncie to Tremec including the driveshaft if stock rear is used.....awesome !
That sure does make things simpler !
http://www.hurst-drivelines.com/?page_id=119
Yesterday was research day ! What puzzled me is the TKO 500 and 600 are the same price at every vendor ! I would have guessed the 500 to be a bit cheaper given the different torque ratios. I found Hurst makes a complete conversion package from Muncie to Tremec including the driveshaft if stock rear is used.....awesome !
That sure does make things simpler !
http://www.hurst-drivelines.com/?page_id=119
Congrats on your recent acquisition and welcome to the Forum!
Just some further thoughts on the trans gearing and axle ratio combinations -
With your 3.70 axle I think you might find the 3.27 1st gear of the TKO 500 results in an overall reduction ratio that is somewhat "short". 3.27 x 3.70 = 12.1. The ideal for street driving is said to be as close to 10.0 as possible. I tend to believe that advice, based on my experience, as follows.
I have a 3.36 axle, and with the 2.20 1st gear in my previous CR Muncie I was at 3.36 x 2.20 = 7.4. That was way too tall for good clean easy starts, especially on hills. I had to ether slip the clutch like crazy, lug/stall the engine, or light 'em up. The only good news was that 1st gear was good to about 65 mph!
Now with my TKO 500 I get 3.27 x 3.36 = 10.9, which is much easier to drive on the street. 1st gear is now good to about 45 mph.
So, I think with your 3.70 axle and for street driving you would be happier with the TKO 600 and its 1st gear of 2.87. That would give you an overall reduction of 2.87 x 3.70 = 10.6. Also with the TKO 600 you have a choice of 5th gears ratios of either .64 or .82. I'd go with the .64 for highway driving to get the biggest rpm drop when cruising. That combo ought to put you somewhere around 2100 rpm at 70 mph depending on your tire size etc.
Just some further thoughts on the trans gearing and axle ratio combinations -
With your 3.70 axle I think you might find the 3.27 1st gear of the TKO 500 results in an overall reduction ratio that is somewhat "short". 3.27 x 3.70 = 12.1. The ideal for street driving is said to be as close to 10.0 as possible. I tend to believe that advice, based on my experience, as follows.
I have a 3.36 axle, and with the 2.20 1st gear in my previous CR Muncie I was at 3.36 x 2.20 = 7.4. That was way too tall for good clean easy starts, especially on hills. I had to ether slip the clutch like crazy, lug/stall the engine, or light 'em up. The only good news was that 1st gear was good to about 65 mph!
Now with my TKO 500 I get 3.27 x 3.36 = 10.9, which is much easier to drive on the street. 1st gear is now good to about 45 mph.
So, I think with your 3.70 axle and for street driving you would be happier with the TKO 600 and its 1st gear of 2.87. That would give you an overall reduction of 2.87 x 3.70 = 10.6. Also with the TKO 600 you have a choice of 5th gears ratios of either .64 or .82. I'd go with the .64 for highway driving to get the biggest rpm drop when cruising. That combo ought to put you somewhere around 2100 rpm at 70 mph depending on your tire size etc.
09-04-2015, 12:04 PM
#7
Race Director
Thanks Bud...I will follow your advice as I've also recently determined the 600's first gear (2.97) is optimal if I stay with the 3.70's which I will because then 2nd/3rd/4th will have more pull than a taller gear ratio. I also like the .64 OD ratio.
Yesterday was research day ! What puzzled me is the TKO 500 and 600 are the same price at every vendor ! I would have guessed the 500 to be a bit cheaper given the different torque ratios. I found Hurst makes a complete conversion package from Muncie to Tremec including the driveshaft if stock rear is used.....awesome !
That sure does make things simpler !
http://www.hurst-drivelines.com/?page_id=119
Yesterday was research day ! What puzzled me is the TKO 500 and 600 are the same price at every vendor ! I would have guessed the 500 to be a bit cheaper given the different torque ratios. I found Hurst makes a complete conversion package from Muncie to Tremec including the driveshaft if stock rear is used.....awesome !
That sure does make things simpler !
http://www.hurst-drivelines.com/?page_id=119
Just to be clear - and my apologies if this sounds like nitpicking - but I'm pretty sure the 1st gear in the TKO 600 is 2.87, not 2.97. All the sources I have seen show it that way. Maybe just a typo?
09-04-2015, 01:46 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
Thanks for the replies guys....I'm new to this forum. First time Stingray owner at 62 years old...yahoo !
At this time I'm considering rebuilding the stock rear which will include bigger half shafts.
A Tremec 500 or 600 is the transmission of choice especially for the 5th gear. If the first gear is 327 then the 500 would be cheaper. This car will not be raced and would only see an occasional red light burst. But I'd like respectable 450HP at 5800-6000rpm power. I have 295's out back and I am a big fan of MT DR's. If I was considering racing I'd opt for the longer Tremec 600 first gear and definitely a shop build balanced/BP'd motor with all forged internals. . I could see a 3.70 rear gear combo working well with a Tremec 500's first gear as this car will be driven but not beat on.
There's much to think about especially in the budget planning ! I was looking at a company called BluePrint engines which has it all from machining to engine dyno , cast or forged. Chevy Performance has some nice motors as well. I know with Ford stuff most crate motors are hyper pistons and not machine balanced builds.
At this time I'm considering rebuilding the stock rear which will include bigger half shafts.
A Tremec 500 or 600 is the transmission of choice especially for the 5th gear. If the first gear is 327 then the 500 would be cheaper. This car will not be raced and would only see an occasional red light burst. But I'd like respectable 450HP at 5800-6000rpm power. I have 295's out back and I am a big fan of MT DR's. If I was considering racing I'd opt for the longer Tremec 600 first gear and definitely a shop build balanced/BP'd motor with all forged internals. . I could see a 3.70 rear gear combo working well with a Tremec 500's first gear as this car will be driven but not beat on.
There's much to think about especially in the budget planning ! I was looking at a company called BluePrint engines which has it all from machining to engine dyno , cast or forged. Chevy Performance has some nice motors as well. I know with Ford stuff most crate motors are hyper pistons and not machine balanced builds.
If you are on Long Island you must go to Oak Beach during summer time or
spring & fall at Captree every sunday morning early! If you havent been there yet you do not know what you have been missing.You will see everything from rat rods to 6 figure exotics and everything in between. It is informal just a grass roots thing but go early because the lots fill quick. Enjoy!
09-04-2015, 02:23 PM
#9
tuxnharley....my mistake bud. My '08 GT500 had a 2.97 first. The 2.87 in the 600 is even better !
Phil.....aren't they still bustin chops about front plates at the beach ?
Phil.....aren't they still bustin chops about front plates at the beach ?
Congratulations on the car! You are going to love owning it.
If you are on Long Island you must go to Oak Beach during summer time or
spring & fall at Captree every sunday morning early! If you havent been there yet you do not know what you have been missing.You will see everything from rat rods to 6 figure exotics and everything in between. It is informal just a grass roots thing but go early because the lots fill quick. Enjoy!
If you are on Long Island you must go to Oak Beach during summer time or
spring & fall at Captree every sunday morning early! If you havent been there yet you do not know what you have been missing.You will see everything from rat rods to 6 figure exotics and everything in between. It is informal just a grass roots thing but go early because the lots fill quick. Enjoy!
09-04-2015, 03:28 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
