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Old 09-04-2002, 03:54 PM   #1
Viet Nam Vett
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St. Jude Donor '04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10, '14
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Default If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use

So I been thinking.... For the 50th coming up I might consider a BB GM crate motor in the 65CP. I think there are several types to choose from. Carbed.. and the 502 Ram jet and possibly another version. How may options are there in the GM BB series.

Also, I guess it would also require a front spring change and I know that I would have to add a BB radiator. And I have heard that the cutch cross shaft can also be a problem.

So what else am I getting into???? Lets hear from the experienced ..Did That Done That Crew........Anybody????? :cool:
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Old 09-04-2002, 04:44 PM   #2
threeimpalas
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

GM is supposedly releasing a new high-horse (700-ish) crate motor sometime soon. That's the one I'd choose. :D
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Old 09-04-2002, 05:20 PM   #3
TheOman
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

I never did this but I looked long and hard into what would be needed. The fast answer is MONEY . Money and MORE Money.

Well you already have the hood so that is a no brainer.

The Big Block radiator needs a different radiator support OR if originality is not your thing the brackets that attach the rad to the support can be purchased separately and all ya gotta do is drill a some holes to attach the brackets to your current support. Don't forget the BBC radiator shroud. Add about $200 for that little goodie.

Exhaust manifolds are EXPENSIVE. More of that Corvette only stuff that has been "investored to death" in tems of parts prices.

The cross shaft issue I think you are talking about is the issue that some BB's don't have a boss on the block for the cross shaft to mate with. Fear not Lakewood Industries make suct a thing. It bolts to two of the bolts tthat attach the bellhousing to the block.

Fuel pumps are another problematic area with some of the crate motors in that they don't have a boss for the pump. Electric pumps are the only answer but I never liked electric pumps. They just make too much nosie. A stock dia SB fuel line should be adequate in anything but an all out race car.

Lemme see what else?

Your tach drive distrib drops right into a BBC. ( About the only win in this deal)

You need all the brackets for the alternator and you gotta get a short water pump. The crate engines come with a long water pump. Oh yeah you need all the pulleys also.

The obligatory change the tach face (silly expense from my point of view). Change the oil pressure guage, again unnecessay since the internal workings of the high and low pressure guages are exactly the same. Higher pressure of the Big Block will just peg the guage at startup till things warm up.

Belhousing change might be required unless you have a large clutch (11 inch) already in your car. Flywheel is a must change since the 454's and 502's all use external balancing. Oh yeah the clutch might have to be changed to match the flywheel that has to be changed cause the engine is a 454. If you change the bellhousing you need a different starter. That can be acomplished by just changing the nose of your current starter over to the nose used with the large flywheel bellhousings. My LS-6 454 starts right up with a starter from a 72 Chevy 350 mouse motor. All I did was swap the nose over.

Now which engine are ya gonna choose? Two things I have heard about the 502. They run hot and they are shipped with low tension rings on the pistons. Sometimes this results in excess oil consumption. A speedy ring change can fix the oil problem BUT might cause more heat due to more friction.

I think the fuel injected engine might be VERY cool. It is also VERY expensive. Something different than the run of the mill stuff at every show. Check to see if The General supplies a wiring harness to support the install. Oh yeah if you go with the EFI Big Block ya gotta have a fuel pump in the tank and likely a bigger line will be required. That soon to be released 700 HP engine would be a bitch to live with on the street. Cantankerous and I suspect very hard to cool as in "custom cooling system" above and beyond just a std. BBS midyear radiator.

More reasonable answer for me is the 425 HP 454. More than enough grunt and you don't end up re-engineering the entire drive train to accomodate all the power of those other bigger brutes. They seem so cool when you read about em but the care and feeding is another story all together.
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Old 09-04-2002, 05:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (TheOman)

I like the Ram Jet 502, but holy heck is it expensive! I'm not sure that the Intake will fit under the hood of a Mid-Year either.
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Old 09-04-2002, 05:58 PM   #5
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

Hey Mark,

You could try putting in that new 700 HP BB and then contact DeWitts and become a guinea pig for a custom designed cooling system..... :smash:
or you could get a 1600 cc VW engine and put in a big bore kit with fart pipe and no overheating problems..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Old 09-04-2002, 06:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (achapman)

Yup nothin like being a pioneer. Ya know what happened to them don't ya???? They got scalped.

Not saying DeWitt would scalp him. Just saying the project would scalp anyone by the time it was finished.
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Old 09-04-2002, 08:07 PM   #7
Viet Nam Vett
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (TheOman)

Thanks Oman For the words of wisdom. I don't think I'm looking for 700 HP.
The Stock drive line wouldn't be able to handle that. I like the idea of that 454 Thang....A nice 450 to 500 hp would be just dandy. I have seen that 502 ram jet and it is :cool: , but like you say it's fule pump in the tank time with a return line. As far as the exhaust is concerned, since my car is a Frankenstien I was thinking of after market block hugger's to the side pipes. The cooling will be the exspensive part with the support and the rad.
and all the other small stuff you mentioned.

Or I could do what Andy suggested, Drop a Fart Pipe Motor in.
:U
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Old 09-04-2002, 08:12 PM   #8
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

hey mark,if you didnt want to put a fuel pump in the tank with the ramjet ,holley and aeroquip and few others make a inline pump for mpfi.Ive been looking into them for my fuel injection,but im gone to put one in the tank instead.


[Modified by pats406nitrovette, 7:13 PM 9/4/2002]
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Old 09-04-2002, 08:45 PM   #9
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

I never did this either but as to the exhaust system. I have always believed that if you are willing to fabricate a set of pipes from the manifolds down to the side pipes ( in your case ) then stock BBC Chevelle manifolds could be used.

Here is my logic. The clutch cross shaft is in the same place on all the blocks so the cross shaft must clear Chevelle headers in a Chevelle frame. It must therefore clear a BBC with Chevelle manifoilds in a Vette frame. The Chevelle manifolds are physically smaller than the Vette units. The Vette units can't fit in the Chevelle frame for just that reason. If one has access to a good welding guy and a tube bender it should be very easy to adapt the front of the side pipe to the Chevelle manifolds.

Purists will scream and the cost of the fabrication will eat into the savings but Chevelle manifolds are available for about 1/4 of the cost of the Vette Big Block exh manifolds.

The 454 425 HP motor is the one I have. It is relatively docile in town and even a little sluggish at lower RPM until it gets up to where the rectangle port heads start to work. Then things happen ptetty fast. The newer crate motors do have hydraulic cams with essentially the same profile as my solid liftr unit. I think that is a plus as far as adjustment but some folks love the sound of the solids and are willing to do an adjustment now and then.
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Old 09-04-2002, 09:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

Experience here with the 454HO put into my 66 conv. Basically the car was a big block to begin with so no change needed to the radiator/fan shroud areas, but I did need the bell crank bracket (Scoggins Dickey carries the part). I bought an 11" flywheel, required a different bell housing than the original (10.4"), but worth it, I suppose. Used a Centerforce clutch, required a small block clutch fork to bell crank rod to get the geometry right (could have been the Centerforce that necessitated this, not sure). Used a mechanical fuel pump (had to buy the pump rod because the 454 doesn't come with it). Had to buy the oil pressure fitting for the 454 (again no big deal). As far as the distributor, GM recommends using a "Melonized" or hardened distributor gear as the bronze gear is not supposed to be hard enough (again Scoggins Dickey has the part). Street manners are absolutely excellent, and the torque is there to break the wheels loose in all four gears (yes, I have done it), granted it does have a 4.11 rear, but the 454 is highly recommended on my part. IMHO, 502+ engines are great, but you can never get the power to the ground in a "stock" mid year so it is somewhat wasted.
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Old 09-04-2002, 11:09 PM   #11
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

Good thread, guys...!!

More than once I have wondered what I would do if I blew my original block L72 427 or if I just decide to yank and bag it, which certainly is a possibility. I have looked through my GM performance cats many times with the same question. I believe I also would go with the 454 HO.
:yesnod:

********************
Click the image to open in full size.
********************
Jeff
‘66. Modified L72
“The Silver Beast”
Keep on :cheers: :cheers: :seeya
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Old 09-05-2002, 12:29 AM   #12
Biggus Blockus
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (TheOman)

Oman,

Good post! Where might one obtain the BB radiator support brackets you mentioned. The ones that can be attached by drilling holes in a SB support. That sounds like just the ticket for my "low budget, big-block swap" in my 65. Please give me more details!

:yesnod:
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Old 09-05-2002, 12:57 AM   #13
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (NuckingFuts)

For all the time, money and effort, and headache, why not just build a wild small block. What is this "only big block" mantality of power. For all the time and money wasted trying to shoe horn a big block in you could build one hell of a small block. Nascar, sprint cars, run small blocks. Saw alot of 10-11 second cars running 350's at the drags.

Brodix Heads, Roller Cam, Holley pro-jection, Hooker Headers, After market rotables, 11:1 compresison. Sound like power to me.

Mark

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Old 09-05-2002, 02:13 AM   #14
Ih2lose
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/perform...s/frameset.cfm
I would use the ho454 to be the most practicle.for for the fun of it the 502 would be the ticket.I am trying to get a 1962 project going tube chassis with a c4 suspention.And the motor I would go with is the 502 I paln on running a auto in it so the clutch rod boss is no biggey for me.
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Old 09-05-2002, 03:30 AM   #15
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Ih2lose)

Hey IH2LOOSE

To spell check, draft your comments in a word document, then use the spell check. Then highlight it, and select copy. Then just past it into the reply box.

But, in any event, we here you clucken big chicken. ;)
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Old 09-05-2002, 06:52 AM   #16
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

The new GM 572 CI big block will supposedly be offered in two versions, a streetable version (620 HP) and a race version (720 HP). A local Chevy parts guy told me that he had heard that when (and if) they are available, there would only be a limited supply of these engines manufactured, like the ZZ 430. Here is a link with the specs: http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Sneak/Previews.html

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Old 09-05-2002, 07:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

I personally like the 502's and haven't experienced any of the problems that somebody else mentioned. I've got 2 of the old 440 horse ones that were sold by Mercury Marine for sterndrive packages before they were readily available from GM. One of my best friends has a ZZ502 (I think it's called) in a 69 Camaro and it's been trouble free also and it's pure stock. It hits a pretty good lick at idle and's got excellent power. His is a carb motor that came with alum. heads and I think they rate it at 502HP. I don't see any reason to buy a 454 when these are available and I think if the price of the ZZ is an issue with it's alum. heads GM still builds some cast iron stuff. I think standard big block Corvette stuff would cool it fine. If I were sticking a late big block in one I'd probably run headers also instead of manifolds unless you're real stuck on the originality look. I feel there's a good bit of difference performance wise. As far as the Chevelle manifolds, we had a car in the shop (when I had a shop in the 80's) that somebody'd tried it on and it was a mess exhaust wise. I can't remember the specifics now, but I remember we ended up puttin' the right stuff back on it before we built the pipes.

Speedomotive has what looks like some excellent crate motor packages, price wise, on their website also. I don't know much about them except that they've been around a while and I've never heard anything negative about em.
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Old 09-05-2002, 08:20 AM   #18
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

I popped a 502/502 in a 67 about 2-3 months ago, ran the stock 400hp 3X2's, manifolds ect. no heating problems at all. Very smooth engine that actualy had decent traction in the car. I was very pleased with it.
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Old 09-05-2002, 08:20 AM   #19
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

Mark

Kahuner installed/de-installed a 502 in his 66. You may want to send him an email. He may still have the engine for sale. Hmmmmmmmmmm !!

john lolli
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Old 09-05-2002, 08:30 AM   #20
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Default Re: If You Wanted To Drop In A BB Crate Motor Which GM BB Crate Would you use (Viet Nam Vett)

Quote:
So I been thinking.... For the 50th coming up I might consider a BB GM crate motor in the 65CP. I think there are several types to choose from. Carbed.. and the 502 Ram jet and possibly another version. How may options are there in the GM BB series.

Also, I guess it would also require a front spring change and I know that I would have to add a BB radiator. And I have heard that the cutch cross shaft can also be a problem.

So what else am I getting into???? Lets hear from the experienced ..Did That Done That Crew........Anybody????? :cool:
I have both the 454 HO crate motor and the ZZ/502 crate motor.
The 454 is in the '67, and the 502 is in the '79. Apples and oranges here, IMHO. The 454HO is a nice, mild-mannered motor with plenty of torque.
It also has a mechanical fuel pump boss, and cast iron rectangular port heads, with 2.19" intake valves and a fairly mild cam.
THe ZZ/502 is a thumping beast with 100 more H.P.
It has aluminum oval-port heads, with 2.25" intake valves and a hot cam, along with a 9.6:1 C/Ratio.
There is also a substantial weight difference because of the aluminum heads.
The only problem usually is the pulleys. You will need the short water pump, and the crank pulley setup from the 1969-74 BB Corvette motor(427,454), NOT the C-2 crank setup.
It's a GREAT swap, and you will be THRILLED at the performance difference!
I LOVE mine, and wouldn't trade them for the world! They are what a Corvette SHOULD be, IMHO.
:yesnod: :chevy :chevy :yesnod:
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