Muncie M20 sticking in 2nd gear solutions
04-05-2016, 01:59 AM
#1
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Muncie M20 sticking in 2nd gear solutions
The Muncie in my 63, the original late 63' M20, will stick in 2nd gear at random times. I am looking for experience and advice on potentially why, and a solution.
When it sticks, I can stop and work the shifter and free it up with some force, but it will not free up unless stopped. I can also slide under the car (well, my son can) and much more easily free up the shift arms at the trans side cover.
I use the stock 63' shifter. I have adjusted the neutral gate to shift smoothly between 1/2 & 3/4 gates by matching the rod lengths for the best feel. The reverse rod has also been adjusted to assure reverse is not engaged. The shifter does not bind on either end of the console.
The neutral gate is wide and free when the trans is cold, and remains free up to the point when the trans sticks in 2nd. It only sticks after the trans warms up. Before the trans sticks, the neutral gate has felt uneven (as if one shift rod is too long or too short). The feel of the neutral gate returns to normal after the shifter is freed up, even with a warm trans.
A decade or two back I had a somewhat similar problem that progressed to having the trans stick in two gears at the same time, and found the end broke off of one of the shift detent plates inside the side cover. I replaced the plate and all has been well since (since 1994).
I plan to replace the trans lube. The mechanic who helped with my recent engine swap dumped the Mobil 1 75/140wt I had in the trans, and added dyno 90wt (in December). I want to eliminate the question of lubricant quality as a problem.
Can the trans be drained by removing a side cover bolt?
Can I remove the side cover with the trans in the car?
Does anyone have experience of what I should look for that could be the cause for sticking in 2nd gear?
Yes, it has been a long time since I last had to service the trans.
When it sticks, I can stop and work the shifter and free it up with some force, but it will not free up unless stopped. I can also slide under the car (well, my son can) and much more easily free up the shift arms at the trans side cover.
I use the stock 63' shifter. I have adjusted the neutral gate to shift smoothly between 1/2 & 3/4 gates by matching the rod lengths for the best feel. The reverse rod has also been adjusted to assure reverse is not engaged. The shifter does not bind on either end of the console.
The neutral gate is wide and free when the trans is cold, and remains free up to the point when the trans sticks in 2nd. It only sticks after the trans warms up. Before the trans sticks, the neutral gate has felt uneven (as if one shift rod is too long or too short). The feel of the neutral gate returns to normal after the shifter is freed up, even with a warm trans.
A decade or two back I had a somewhat similar problem that progressed to having the trans stick in two gears at the same time, and found the end broke off of one of the shift detent plates inside the side cover. I replaced the plate and all has been well since (since 1994).
I plan to replace the trans lube. The mechanic who helped with my recent engine swap dumped the Mobil 1 75/140wt I had in the trans, and added dyno 90wt (in December). I want to eliminate the question of lubricant quality as a problem.
Can the trans be drained by removing a side cover bolt?
Can I remove the side cover with the trans in the car?
Does anyone have experience of what I should look for that could be the cause for sticking in 2nd gear?
Yes, it has been a long time since I last had to service the trans.
04-05-2016, 05:04 AM
#2
Team Owner
I can't determine if you think its the shifter or an internal transmission problem. The shifter/rods might need to be taken off and repaired. When I first got my 63 the Muncie would grind pretty harshly when downshifting into 2nd. I put Amsoil Synthetic 90W GL4 in it and the problem cleared up in a few hundred miles. I don't know why you would run 140W.
Yes there is a drain plug on the early Muncies and a fill plug. Amsoil makes a nice plastic pump to fill the transmission from their plastic quart bottles - eliminates the mess. Yes the side cover will come off with the Muncie in the car but the two square headed bolts on the OTHER side are for fill/drain.
Sounds to me like you have a shifter/rod problem though.
Yes there is a drain plug on the early Muncies and a fill plug. Amsoil makes a nice plastic pump to fill the transmission from their plastic quart bottles - eliminates the mess. Yes the side cover will come off with the Muncie in the car but the two square headed bolts on the OTHER side are for fill/drain.
Sounds to me like you have a shifter/rod problem though.
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 04-05-2016 at 05:41 AM.
04-05-2016, 07:48 AM
#3
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When the problem occurs I would remove the 1st-2nd shift lever from the trans.
Try and move the shifter rod out of 2nd, if it moves freely then it is not the shifter. It is difficult then it is the shifter.
If it moves freely then using a small wrench or pliers try and move the shift shaft out of 2nd.
If it is now difficult to move then it is internal and it is worth a shot as Frankie stated try the Amsoil.
Joe
Try and move the shifter rod out of 2nd, if it moves freely then it is not the shifter. It is difficult then it is the shifter.
If it moves freely then using a small wrench or pliers try and move the shift shaft out of 2nd.
If it is now difficult to move then it is internal and it is worth a shot as Frankie stated try the Amsoil.
Joe
04-05-2016, 05:20 PM
#4
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Thank for the tips.
The shift rods and stalk move free. No problem with the shifter or rod linkage. The shifter gate is there, just the trans will not release from 2nd.
The shafts for the shift forks feel OK, except when the trans sticks in 2nd. Wiggle the rods and its all good again.
I can knock off a few 6000 rpm plus shifts, and drive easy or hard, and its smooth as silk. I can do this for a few days with no problem. Then out of nowhere it sticks in 2nd.
The trans is the original VIN numbered case, and the drain boss has never been drilled or tapped. I watched an expert rebuild the trans for me about ten years back. The 63' has some unique features, a snap ring in addition to the small input shaft bearing and other better known one year details. It has the improved 65-66 side cover. At the time all was well after the assembly.
I was hoping I could accomplish drain access by removing a side cover bolt (easy), or by removing the side cover (harder, but not as hard as removing the trans).
The shift rods and stalk move free. No problem with the shifter or rod linkage. The shifter gate is there, just the trans will not release from 2nd.
The shafts for the shift forks feel OK, except when the trans sticks in 2nd. Wiggle the rods and its all good again.
I can knock off a few 6000 rpm plus shifts, and drive easy or hard, and its smooth as silk. I can do this for a few days with no problem. Then out of nowhere it sticks in 2nd.
The trans is the original VIN numbered case, and the drain boss has never been drilled or tapped. I watched an expert rebuild the trans for me about ten years back. The 63' has some unique features, a snap ring in addition to the small input shaft bearing and other better known one year details. It has the improved 65-66 side cover. At the time all was well after the assembly.
I was hoping I could accomplish drain access by removing a side cover bolt (easy), or by removing the side cover (harder, but not as hard as removing the trans).
04-05-2016, 06:35 PM
#5
Team Owner
Is this a newly rebuild transmission
Being run for the first time after the work was done 10 years ago?
When you say sticking, it won't come out of gear or just isn't easy to move? And could that be heat related? Is the problem happening when cold and hot?
New, it just might need to get used some to break it in more!
You said your linkage is all clear and moves with ease!
When you say sticking, it won't come out of gear or just isn't easy to move? And could that be heat related? Is the problem happening when cold and hot?
New, it just might need to get used some to break it in more!
You said your linkage is all clear and moves with ease!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 04-05-2016 at 06:37 PM.
04-05-2016, 09:10 PM
#6
Team Owner
Thank for the tips.
The shift rods and stalk move free. No problem with the shifter or rod linkage. The shifter gate is there, just the trans will not release from 2nd.
The shafts for the shift forks feel OK, except when the trans sticks in 2nd. Wiggle the rods and its all good again.
I can knock off a few 6000 rpm plus shifts, and drive easy or hard, and its smooth as silk. I can do this for a few days with no problem. Then out of nowhere it sticks in 2nd.
The trans is the original VIN numbered case, and the drain boss has never been drilled or tapped. I watched an expert rebuild the trans for me about ten years back. The 63' has some unique features, a snap ring in addition to the small input shaft bearing and other better known one year details. It has the improved 65-66 side cover. At the time all was well after the assembly.
I was hoping I could accomplish drain access by removing a side cover bolt (easy), or by removing the side cover (harder, but not as hard as removing the trans).
The shift rods and stalk move free. No problem with the shifter or rod linkage. The shifter gate is there, just the trans will not release from 2nd.
The shafts for the shift forks feel OK, except when the trans sticks in 2nd. Wiggle the rods and its all good again.
I can knock off a few 6000 rpm plus shifts, and drive easy or hard, and its smooth as silk. I can do this for a few days with no problem. Then out of nowhere it sticks in 2nd.
The trans is the original VIN numbered case, and the drain boss has never been drilled or tapped. I watched an expert rebuild the trans for me about ten years back. The 63' has some unique features, a snap ring in addition to the small input shaft bearing and other better known one year details. It has the improved 65-66 side cover. At the time all was well after the assembly.
I was hoping I could accomplish drain access by removing a side cover bolt (easy), or by removing the side cover (harder, but not as hard as removing the trans).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-5L-Hand-Op...174873&vxp=mtr
I also run the improved side cover in my 63 with the improved rooster combs and bronze bushings for the shifter shafts - a nice upgrade and doesn't leak.
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 04-05-2016 at 09:12 PM.
04-05-2016, 10:05 PM
#7
Originally Posted by Frankie the Fink
I also run the improved side cover in my 63 with the improved rooster combs and bronze bushings for the shifter shafts - a nice upgrade and doesn't leak.
Did you also get new shift levers, forks, heavy comb spring etc. ?
04-05-2016, 11:03 PM
#8
Drifting
One thing you can try to do with the shifter is adjust the stops (if so equipped) to make sure it isn't going to far into second gear.
But, I think you have a transmission issue. It sounds like the keys are "popping" up while you have it in second making it almost impossible to get the slider to move out of second or they are worn and binding up. Or the rings are worn and the insets are binding up on them. ........just my .02
But, I think you have a transmission issue. It sounds like the keys are "popping" up while you have it in second making it almost impossible to get the slider to move out of second or they are worn and binding up. Or the rings are worn and the insets are binding up on them. ........just my .02
04-06-2016, 01:13 AM
#9
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The trans had a few thousand trouble free miles since the rebuild, including a few laps at Willow Springs on big Willow. It also sat in the garage too much, for years.
The recent difference is the guys took the linkage off and dumped the fluid during the engine swap in December.
Where I had years to fine tune the shift linkage and everything else in the past, I have been getting into lots of fine tuning in only a few weeks. This is the state of affairs after having someone else work on the car. I always did my own work, for decades, until this swap. My hands do not work so well, so the help was welcome, but like any project you want done to a personal preference the tuning remains personal. I should not complain.
Since the swap my son and I have rebuilt the distributor & revised the advance curves, installed new pulleys & belts, revised the carburetor floats and jetting & accelerator pump cams and shooters, installed a new fuel pump, replaced the Pertronix trigger, added new mufflers and adjusted the shift linkage and clutch linkage. We added front caster to match the new power steering box, and will be adjusting the level of the rear suspension soon with revised rear camber settings. We will also be retiring the original 63' seats to attic storage with the addition of Scat Rally seats this month. My son is learning a lot in a short time. All of this is good and successful, all slow but steady improvements, all except the trans sticking in 2nd.
I agree that I may be expecting too much too soon. An oil change in the trans, and more miles, may be the solution. The shifts and action are usually smooth as silk (typical Muncie goodness). The factory shiftier has no limit stops, so if a problem exists it is likely in the shift folks or the detent plates inside the side cover.
I must admit the sound and feel brings on a smile, shifting at 6500 rpm and watching the needle waiving in front of triple digits. The car sat too much of the past decade in the garage. The remaining little things will work out.
The recent difference is the guys took the linkage off and dumped the fluid during the engine swap in December.
Where I had years to fine tune the shift linkage and everything else in the past, I have been getting into lots of fine tuning in only a few weeks. This is the state of affairs after having someone else work on the car. I always did my own work, for decades, until this swap. My hands do not work so well, so the help was welcome, but like any project you want done to a personal preference the tuning remains personal. I should not complain.
Since the swap my son and I have rebuilt the distributor & revised the advance curves, installed new pulleys & belts, revised the carburetor floats and jetting & accelerator pump cams and shooters, installed a new fuel pump, replaced the Pertronix trigger, added new mufflers and adjusted the shift linkage and clutch linkage. We added front caster to match the new power steering box, and will be adjusting the level of the rear suspension soon with revised rear camber settings. We will also be retiring the original 63' seats to attic storage with the addition of Scat Rally seats this month. My son is learning a lot in a short time. All of this is good and successful, all slow but steady improvements, all except the trans sticking in 2nd.
I agree that I may be expecting too much too soon. An oil change in the trans, and more miles, may be the solution. The shifts and action are usually smooth as silk (typical Muncie goodness). The factory shiftier has no limit stops, so if a problem exists it is likely in the shift folks or the detent plates inside the side cover.
I must admit the sound and feel brings on a smile, shifting at 6500 rpm and watching the needle waiving in front of triple digits. The car sat too much of the past decade in the garage. The remaining little things will work out.
04-06-2016, 05:38 AM
#10
Team Owner
Quite easy to change - some claim you have to loosen the transmission and 'twist' it sideways. You do not. Shifter rods have to come off and removed, speedometer cable has to be removed and bungied out of the way. Reverse rod can remain in place.
I have the whole procedure written down (attached) -- shifter fork position has to be exact when dis-assembling and assembling - that's the only tricky part at all.
Side cover leaked badly around the shifter fork rods (first pic) and somebody's RTV job didn't help (second pic).
The new unit has bronze bushings and heavier rooster combs. (third/fourth pics). No more leaks - smoother shifts.
IIRC - I got everything from Manchester Muncies
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 04-06-2016 at 05:47 AM.
04-06-2016, 07:52 AM
#11
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I don't think a Muncie got a drain plug until 70 or 71. Took the side over off of mine with it in the car. Best way to remove it and a must to put it back on is to have it in second gear. Push the rear most slider all the way forward and put the lever in the cover detent into 2nd as well. Will go back on easily only in this position.��
04-06-2016, 12:21 PM
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I don't think a Muncie got a drain plug until 70 or 71. Took the side over off of mine with it in the car. Best way to remove it and a must to put it back on is to have it in second gear. Push the rear most slider all the way forward and put the lever in the cover detent into 2nd as well. Will go back on easily only in this position.��
I just realized what I call the shift detent plates are called rooster combs. These plates prevent the 1/2 shift fork from being placed in a gear when the 3/4 fork is in a gear (and vice versa). The end of one of the combs broke off in 94', allowing a trans shift fork to slide and get stuck in gear at the same time the other fork was positioned in gear. Maybe another one is failing. I have a spare comb in a package (somewhere).
Has anyone else experienced a broken rooster comb?
04-06-2016, 12:36 PM
#13
To Frankie - Can you help me with these questions. I need you expertise:
Thank you so much.
Frankie, Regarding your side cover , combs, etc where did you buy them? Was it easy to change the side cover hardware?
Did you also get new shift levers, forks, heavy comb spring etc. ?
Thank you so much.
Originally Posted by Frankie the Fink
I also run the improved side cover in my 63 with the improved rooster combs and bronze bushings for the shifter shafts - a nice upgrade and doesn't leak.
Did you also get new shift levers, forks, heavy comb spring etc. ?
Last edited by babbah; 04-06-2016 at 12:37 PM.
04-06-2016, 12:59 PM
#14
Team Owner
To Frankie - Can you help me with these questions. I need you expertise:
Thank you so much.
Frankie, Regarding your side cover , combs, etc where did you buy them? Was it easy to change the side cover hardware?
Did you also get new shift levers, forks, heavy comb spring etc. ?
Thank you so much.
Frankie, Regarding your side cover , combs, etc where did you buy them? Was it easy to change the side cover hardware?
Did you also get new shift levers, forks, heavy comb spring etc. ?
The side cover came with rooster combs and the center pin...the shifter shafts and forks I bought separately. All of it came from Manchester Muncie. Here is a partial invoice. The side cover came with shifter shaft seals too -- so I didn't really need the extras I bought for $6.
Let me know if there is something else you require
Last edited by Frankie the Fink; 04-06-2016 at 01:00 PM.
04-06-2016, 01:04 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Frankie the Fink
I thought I covered that in post #10 - that post also has an attachment with PRECISE instructions for R&Ring the side cover.
The side cover came with rooster combs and the center pin...the shifter shafts and forks I bought separately. All of it came from Manchester Muncie. Here is a partial invoice.
Let me know if there is something else you require
The side cover came with rooster combs and the center pin...the shifter shafts and forks I bought separately. All of it came from Manchester Muncie. Here is a partial invoice.
Let me know if there is something else you require
they sell the cover plate assembled?
I didn't see the cover plate on the invoice.
Thanks Frankie
I am more interested in the parts - what to order and from where.
04-06-2016, 01:15 PM
#16
Team Owner
I can't find the side cover invoice for some reason (and I keep EVERYthing)...but here is an interesting (but pricey) option. 1/2 way down this page a side cover with needle bearings: http://www.tbtrans.com/muncie_4_speed.htm
04-06-2016, 01:15 PM
#17
Race Director
I can't determine if you think its the shifter or an internal transmission problem. The shifter/rods might need to be taken off and repaired. When I first got my 63 the Muncie would grind pretty harshly when downshifting into 2nd. I put Amsoil Synthetic 90W GL4 in it and the problem cleared up in a few hundred miles. I don't know why you would run 140W.
Yes there is a drain plug on the early Muncies and a fill plug. Amsoil makes a nice plastic pump to fill the transmission from their plastic quart bottles - eliminates the mess. Yes the side cover will come off with the Muncie in the car but the two square headed bolts on the OTHER side are for fill/drain.
Sounds to me like you have a shifter/rod problem though.
Yes there is a drain plug on the early Muncies and a fill plug. Amsoil makes a nice plastic pump to fill the transmission from their plastic quart bottles - eliminates the mess. Yes the side cover will come off with the Muncie in the car but the two square headed bolts on the OTHER side are for fill/drain.
Sounds to me like you have a shifter/rod problem though.
04-06-2016, 01:17 PM
#18
Originally Posted by Frankie the Fink
I can't find the side cover invoice for some reason (and I keep EVERYthing)...but here is an interesting (but pricey) option. 1/2 way down this page a side cover with needle bearings: http://www.tbtrans.com/muncie_4_speed.htm
04-06-2016, 01:26 PM
#19
Originally Posted by Frankie the Fink
I found when I bought the improved side cover that I didn't get the best deal, I paid about $30 more than i could have gotten it for elsewhere. I did also get new shift levers and forks.
Quite easy to change - some claim you have to loosen the transmission and 'twist' it sideways. You do not. Shifter rods have to come off and removed, speedometer cable has to be removed and bungied out of the way. Reverse rod can remain in place.
I have the whole procedure written down (attached) -- shifter fork position has to be exact when dis-assembling and assembling - that's the only tricky part at all.
Side cover leaked badly around the shifter fork rods (first pic) and somebody's RTV job didn't help (second pic).
The new unit has bronze bushings and heavier rooster combs. (third/fourth pics). No more leaks - smoother shifts.
IIRC - I got everything from Manchester Muncies
Quite easy to change - some claim you have to loosen the transmission and 'twist' it sideways. You do not. Shifter rods have to come off and removed, speedometer cable has to be removed and bungied out of the way. Reverse rod can remain in place.
I have the whole procedure written down (attached) -- shifter fork position has to be exact when dis-assembling and assembling - that's the only tricky part at all.
Side cover leaked badly around the shifter fork rods (first pic) and somebody's RTV job didn't help (second pic).
The new unit has bronze bushings and heavier rooster combs. (third/fourth pics). No more leaks - smoother shifts.
IIRC - I got everything from Manchester Muncies
one question why does the speedo cable have to be removed to install the side plate?
and did you buy new grand shift levers as well?
04-06-2016, 04:08 PM
#20
Team Owner
I did not buy new shift rods -- if that's what you mean by levers. My car has a competition Hurst shifter but I did buy new bushing and rebuilt the shifter ad rods.
IIRC the speedo cable just seemed to get in the way every time I was using a ratchet or box end wrench and pissed me off so I bungied it out of the way. It really didn't interfere with the side cover removal directly...
IIRC the speedo cable just seemed to get in the way every time I was using a ratchet or box end wrench and pissed me off so I bungied it out of the way. It really didn't interfere with the side cover removal directly...