Bluestripe67

I'm late to the party since I was away when this thread first posted. Being 'an early '63 I suspect it has a Borg Warner T-10. Did they stamp the vin on them as they have done on Muncies? If it's there that may help to tie things together. Yes, no? Dennis

Phil310

I took off the back wheel and found the last five of the VIN! I am not sure how many numbers are supposed to be there but these match the last of the remade VIN plate!

Phil310

That took a whole bottle of d40 for the lug nuts and the vin area

Vettrocious

That frame number looks pretty good, it would appear that you have at least the frame from the car listed on the OK title.

Now, you also have a 63 body of undetermined origin, a reproduction trim tag and no real VIN tag. The police don't care about the body origin (and trim tag doesn't matter for the resale, as it's clearly not the original). What you really need now (to sell the car) is for the police to verify the VIN from that frame number, (which they can do), then you can get a new OK vin tag, to replace the fake one you have. Once you have that tag to go with your current title, all is good to sell. Good luck...

Phil310

I guess I see it the glass as half full :-)

I have my FILs car, which is just like he said it was...someone put a different engine in it and "raced" it and lost the VIN plate.

There has been nothing fishy this whole time.
Title has always been clear. Now frame number verifies that the VIN was always correct.

Not even sure why I need the OK VIN tag, but I am going to do it to make a buyer feel confident in the car.

SonnyAK

It sounds like everything about your car is in good order except the VIN tag. Once a state issues a replacement tag, it will look similar to the one on this link:

http://chevellestuff.net/tech/state_vin/ia.htm

depending on the state issued. Until this is done, there will be some issues when selling, because buyers will expect to see this type of VIN tag as a replacement and not one that's been made as a replacement. Hope this helps explain a bit and doesn't seem more confusing. There's been a lot of great info on this thread, but I'm sure it's been quite overwhelming since you're not into these cars very much. Maybe by the time all of this is over you'll decide to keep it and become part of the mayhem!
Good luck with whatever you decide!

emccomas

The answer to your last question is simple. What you have on the car now is not legal. The car would be immediately impounded in some states until the issue was cleared up.

The VIN of this car not being a stolen car VIN is not the same as the car have a legal VIN tag on it.

Since you have now found the frame numbers, and can show them, you MIGHT get Oklahoma to issue a state issued replacement VIN tag with the correct VIN on it. This varies from state to state, but that would be your best option, if Oklahoma will allow it.

A state issued VIN tag will make the car legal, and sellable in the future.

Right now, there is a cloud over this car because of the homemade VIN tag.

VIN tags, and the rosette rivets that are used to attach them, are specifically protected by state laws.

Phil310

Thanks guys! I really appreciate all the help! I will get the police out to look at it and start that process.

Railroadman

TIME OUT!!!

OK look - I think some guys here are going at this all wrong.

You have a car which has been in the family for decades. It has a valid, legal title. It has a frame stamping which matches the title. There is a repro VIN tag which MAY have been made exactly for the reason stated - original lost by an owner previous to 1988 or whenever. You can prove your FIL is the current owner legal and in poor health.

WHY in the world would anyone suggest opening a can of worms saying go get a state issued VIN, tell the DMV all about what is wrong, etc? As stated, SOME states don't worry about inspecting the numbers. SOME cops will take your word for what the number is even if they come out to look. SOME cops or DMV people would not know the repro tag from the real one.

You have enough to show you are innocent of stealing the thing, it's not on a hot sheet since it is currently titled. Now true, a collector who cares about an original car will not want this vehicle but someone looking for a project or restomod will not care about originality.

I'd suggest you sell it as just what it is, being honest with the lookers about what you know is there, including the VIN tag. If they are willing to buy it, let THEM deal with the DMV in THEIR state if they even need to. Since many states don't require a detailed inspection, the replacement VIN tag is not necessarily the "kiss of death" at all.

Why borrow trouble?

emccomas

Your reply is based not on legality, but on the assumption that the OP "won't get caught".

Yes, there are many states that will not physically inspect the car, since the OP has a valid title, and the car is not listed as being stolen.

However, I would venture to say that anyone selling a car with a homemade VIN tag is violating the law, regardless of whether or not they get caught doing it.

No, I am not an attorney, and I do not play one on TV, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist (and I am one of those) to figure out that the seller is, in fact, borrowing trouble by selling this car as is.

And this thing can come back to bite the OP years later, and many owners down the road.

The OP knows the VIN tag is homemade, so even ignorance could not be later argued (and we all know that ignorance of the law is no excuse).

Also not resolving this issue will limit the sellers potential clients, because some states will not deal with this issue period, or the cost to resolve it would be cost prohibitive. And I seem to recall that there is one state that will impound the car until the issue is resolved.

Fix it now and be done with it forever. It is not like this is going to cost a fortune to resolve.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Railroadman

No legal professional here either. But "getting caught" implies doing something shady. One question is - is it illegal to 1) apply a repro tag 2) own a vehicle with a repro tag and 3) sell a car with a repro tag. And are those answers the same in every state - per national regs - or do they vary? I'm guessing #1 is more likely a "yes" while the other two I have no idea.

Despite the OP doing the legwork, the actual seller would probably be the FIL. And he might not care about solving a problem years down the road.

I think that between the title paperwork and the frame VIN, it's a fairly safe bet the car actually IS what is is claimed to be. Not guaranteed, but probably. There are many cars with far more questionable provenance being bought, sold and driven every day.

Going to a DMV and asking for a state issued VIN is a one-way street - there's no going back. And since OP is obviously not going to restore and keep the car himself, and really isn't even the seller, I think it's reasonable to make an honest sale and let the buyer decide what he wants to do from there.

Railroadman

This is not Corvette related but illustrates exactly where I'm coming from on this so indulge me.

Many years ago I bought a machine in Michigan. Easiest route to NY was across Canada. Going west with the snowmobile trailer empty I stopped at US and Canadian Customs at Niagara Falls, both sides, Sarnia, and Port Huron, to ask what I had to do for transporting a US made machine across. It was not encouraging - customs brokers, bond money, paperwork and permits - all for an $800 machine.

With the thing chained on in Michigan, I rolled the dice and went south maybe 25 miles to Detroit, Windsor, Fort Erie and into the US at Buffalo. At that point I didn't trust my mirror, I turned around and looked straight back to be sure the damn trailer was still there. None of the various border people so much as glanced at the trailer at all.

Now the "legal" thing may well have been to jump through all the hoops. So maybe I didn't "get caught". But on some occasions, the letter of the law is over-ridden by common sense.

emccomas

Honestly, this debate has occurred many times in the past, and will continue to occur in the future....

So let me just address what "could" happen in my state, Alabama.

As many people know, Alabama is one of the most lenient states in the US when it comes to buying and selling of used cars. Alabama, at one time, was the place to bring stolen vehicles and sell them because Alabama did not title vehicles for many years.

Current Alabama law only requires a title for vehicles 35 year old or newer. IT is a moving target, so each year one more model year no longer requires a title. In fact, Alabama will NOT issue a title for vehicles older than 35 years. I know that many other states are much harsher than this.

Given all of that, here is the pertinent Alabama code that relates to this situation.

Code of Alabama 1975
Section 32-8-86

Removed, falsified or unauthorized identification number, registration or license plate; seizure of vehicle, part, etc., when number altered, etc.; disposition of forfeited property.

(a) A person who willfully removes or falsifies an identification number of a vehicle, engine, transmission or other identifiable component part of a vehicle is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor and shall be punished as required by law.

(b) A person who, willfully and with intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity of a vehicle, engine, transmission or other identifiable component part of a vehicle or removes or falsifies an identification number of the same is guilty of a Class C felony and shall be punished as required by law.

(c) A person who buys, receives, possesses, sells or disposes of a vehicle, or an engine, transmission or other identifiable component part of a vehicle, knowing that an identification number of the same has been removed or falsified, is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor and shall be punished as required by law.

(d) A person who buys, receives, possesses, sells or disposes of a vehicle, engine, transmission or other identifiable component part of a vehicle, with knowledge that an identification number of same has been removed or falsified and with intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity of same is guilty of a Class C felony and shall be punished as required by law.

(e) A person who removes a license plate or tag from a vehicle or affixes to a vehicle a license plate or tag not authorized by law for use on it, in either case with intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity of a vehicle or its owner, is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor and shall be punished as required by law.

....

(h) Any vehicle, engine, transmission, or other identifiable component part, wherein the identification number or numbers appear to be altered, or removed may be seized and detained by law enforcement officials for a reasonable period of time for determination of the true identity of the vehicle, engine, transmission, or other component parts. Any item seized by law enforcement officials, wherein ownership cannot be determined shall be contraband and subject to forfeiture.

OK, that is basically it. I have little doubt that the OP can "get away" with selling this car, even with the disclosure that the VIN tag is homemade. But somewhere down the line, this issue is almost certainly going to come up. It may be years, and many owners in the future, but it will eventually come up.

And let's be honest here, we all know what is going to happen to this car if it is sold as is, with the homemade VIN tag.

The numbers on the title match the numbers on the frame. A future owner is going to get a reproduction VIN tag made that matches a factory VIN tag as close as possible, and attach it to the car in the factory location. That person may or may not disclose this when they sell it.

I predict that the homemade VIN tag will disappear, the car will appear in the future with a reproduction factory style VIN tag, and either a reproduction or a used original trim tag.

By the way, here is an excerpt from Oklahoma code on this subject...

(b) A person who buys, receives, possesses, sells or disposes of a vehicle or an engine for a vehicle, knowing that the identification number of the vehicle or engine has been removed or falsified, shall, upon conviction, be guilty of a misdemeanor.

(c) A person who buys, receives, possesses, sells or disposes of a vehicle or an engine for a vehicle, with knowledge that the identification number of the vehicle or engine has been removed or falsified and with intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity of the vehicle or engine, shall, upon conviction, be guilty of a felony.

One other thing, now that I think about it. The trim tag on this car is not original. Replacement of a trim tag that is not properly identified as a replacement trim tag is illegal in Oklahoma. I belive that Oklahoma is the only state that regulates the trim tag as well as the VIN tag.

I wish the owner the best of luck in whatever he decides to do.

OK, that is all I need to say on this topic.

Railroadman

OK! OK!

emccomas

I want to learn some more about mid-year trim tags, which is an area I have never spent any real time in.

Now, knowing that the trim tag on this car is a reproduction / homemade, I still want to see if I understand this information correctly (picture below).

Date code: C2
Style: 63 867
Trim: 490C
Body: 1714
Paint: 923

Please correct me if I have any of this wrong....

Date code of C2: decodes to November, 1962 (C), 2nd week (2)
Style of 63 867: decodes to 1963 (63), convertible body (867)
Trim of 490C: decodes to red vinyl for a coupe
Body of 1714: decodes to the body number
Paint of 923: decodes to paint color Riverside Red

The VIN of this car #5062 would indicate a build date on Monday, Dec 17, 1962.

So, this body was assembled in the second week of November, 1962, and the car was built about a month later (Dec 17, 1962). Does that make sense?

Also, the TRIM code of 490C indicates red vinyl for a coupe (not a convertible). Is this correct?

I am thinking that we would never expect to see a style of 63 867 combined with a trim code of 490C, since the body style is convertible, but the trim code is specific to a coupe.

Is that correct?

Last, wouldn't the paint code of 923 be followed by the letter A?

Remember, I am trying to learn about mid year trim tags, so bare with me on this.

And to the OP, no criticism is intended, I am using this trim tag to help me learn some things.

OK, how badly did I mess this up?

Phil310

Great discussion! Thank you!

I don't ever want to do anything illegal --or cause any hassle for the next owner-- so I will proceed down the dmv vin path.

FIL had the VIN plate made decades ago with no internet, maybe he just had the title and used the vin on it and then the aftermarket plate company put the rest on there. I think he said he paid $100 for it.

He told me the style/trim stuff on the tag might be inaccurate.

Right after his wife died young of cancer, he used to take my wife (his only child-- who was 8-12 yrs old) driving around to parts shows looking for parts for it while enjoying it.

This would have been like 1981. It reminds him of his wife's death and that why he garaged it in the mid 80s and there it has sat.

No malice or deception, just liked the car and the time with her and now wants it sold since he is in assisted living.

MOXIE62

Not to put you out any but if you could, post a picture of where the original tag would of been. Curious what that area looks like, hammer hits, drill or screwdriver scratches. It would be a few inches down towards the passenger door, assuming he put the trim tag back in the same place. Just hard to understand how a vin tag in this area would get lost. Unless someone remove it on purpose.

KC John

When I moved to KS in '93 from NY I ran into this nightmare. My VIN was removed for paint sometime around '80. When I went to get it registered I had to bring the car to the State Police to inspect the car.

This is when I regretted going to the police before I knew what was going to happen. Once they saw the VIN had been removed and then replaced, they told me they might have to confiscate the car and park it outside in a gated area until they can get to it. Then if they couldn't find the VIN they might have to cut a small hole in the trunk and if not there then they would cut a small hole in the front floor by the driver's seat. They scared the heck out of me!

I told them I have owned this car for the last 12 years and it wasn't stolen. I know it can hail around here, and I certainly didn't want them to cut into my car either. I actually told the cop I feel like getting in my car and heading back to NY. They finally told me to go straight back home and they better not catch me driving the car until I find that number and have someone come out to my house to verify it.

It was the beginning of January, so it took me almost 3 more months to be able to find the numbers and wait for them to come out and give me the paperwork I needed to get the car registered.

The reason for this story is so that you know how different some states handle something like this. I'm glad you found the numbers you needed. I'm surprised that they put so much effort into finding a needle in a haystack, knowing how financially broke all the states are. Good luck with everything.

Phil310

JV04 had asked for a better pic of the number on the engine...here it is:



Looks like it might say F0204S ??

Phil310