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Has anyone had a horn button go bad. I installed a new turn signal switch last year. After fooling with the column a few times I finally got the column to sit correctly and everything lined up and worked, I thought. I tried to blow the horn the other day and it did not work. I pulled the center cap off of the steering wheel and pushed on the horn button to see if it would work that way. If I remember correctly (that is always questionable) the horn worked when I first got it back together. Can a horn button go bad? It is such a simple mechanism that it is hard for me to believe that is the problem. Any thoughts???
It's more likely an assembly problem than going bad. The fingered ring has to touch the metal of the wheel, and the arm that sticks down toward the turn signal switch has to touch the spring loaded horn contact, and the black wire from the horn relay has to be connected to that portion that the contact touches. The only function of the whole assembly is to provide a ground to that black wire. Use a jumper lead (or screw driver) from the metal part of the steering wheel and touch the thing that looks like this picture and see if it blows. Post back what happens and we can go from there. You may have this part rotated incorrectly to the parts don't touch, or it may not be depressing enough to touch the column to ground it.
It's more likely an assembly problem than going bad. The fingered ring has to touch the metal of the wheel, and the arm that sticks down toward the turn signal switch has to touch the spring loaded horn contact, and the black wire from the horn relay has to be connected to that portion that the contact touches. The only function of the whole assembly is to provide a ground to that black wire. Use a jumper lead (or screw driver) from the metal part of the steering wheel and touch the thing that looks like this picture and see if it blows. Post back what happens and we can go from there. You may have this part rotated incorrectly to the parts don't touch, or it may not be depressing enough to touch the column to ground it.
As usual 65GGvert is right on. I've had to tinker with my horn setup more than once due to the button being just a little bit off in its mounting..
When you push down on the horn cap which is held by the part with the red arrow, it moves it and causes it to touch the part with the blue arrow, which is held to ground by the three screws and thus grounded. Using a jumper from the ground to the part with the red arrow will tell you if the problem is in the top part or down where the horn button contacts the black wire connection. That horn button (looks similar to the inside of a ball point pen, but shorter and bigger around) has a spring in it, if that spring is too short, or missing, the horn won't blow either.
I'll probably have to tear it apart again. I checked to see if I had current at the copper ring, none!!!!! I then checked to see if I had current at the connector on the column. I have current there so it appears I either have a bad signal switch, cut wire or a grounded out wire to the horn.
I'll probably have to tear it apart again. I checked to see if I had current at the copper ring, none!!!!! I then checked to see if I had current at the connector on the column. I have current there so it appears I either have a bad signal switch, cut wire or a grounded out wire to the horn.
Here is some info (attached PDF) on the horn button/contact mechanism. It's based on our '65 non-tele column.
There should be no current unless the horn is blowing. If a wire was grounded out the horn would blow all the time. The purpose of the ring is to ground the black wire. You can connect a wire to ground and touch various parts in that column to see where the break is
I'll probably have to tear it apart again. I checked to see if I had current at the copper ring, none!!!!! I then checked to see if I had current at the connector on the column. I have current there so it appears I either have a bad signal switch, cut wire or a grounded out wire to the horn.
do a continuity test on the black wire in you column. did you touch the horn contact with a screwdriver pressed against the steering wheel. if it doesn't blow that way you have a broken wire some where
do a continuity test on the black wire in you column. did you touch the horn contact with a screwdriver pressed against the steering wheel. if it doesn't blow that way you have a broken wire some where
That's exactly what I did. No current. According to what I know about electrical the copper ring has current to it at all times. All I have to do is put a screwdriver ( or something like it) to the copper ring and hook a volt meter to it. Then touch ground and I should see current. I did not.....
That's exactly what I did. No current. According to what I know about electrical the copper ring has current to it at all times. All I have to do is put a screwdriver ( or something like it) to the copper ring and hook a volt meter to it. Then touch ground and I should see current. I did not.....
Maybe we're just using different terminology, but there is not any "current" anywhere around there constantly. The black wire comes from the horn relay, back up through the bulkhead connector, up to the connector to the turn signal ***'y and attaches to a plate in the column. There is a spring loaded button that touches that plate. The other side of that plate touches the ell shaped metal on the horn contact that is attached to, but insulated from the metal with the three screw holes that mount to the wheel. The only time anything has current is when you push the cap, which causes the fingered item to touch the metal item that's screwed to the column. That grounds the black wire that comes from the horn relay, closing the relay and putting 12v directly to the horns. None of that voltage or current goes back to the column. The most likely problem is the button that sits on the plate I mentioned isn't making contact with the ell shaped metal because the orientation of the top of the metal piece with three screws is off enough to miss the button. Also the button could be collapsed (it should be spring loaded) or corroded, it has to make good tight contact to provide the ground. Another possibility is that the column isn't grounded because the loop across the rag joint has opened or corroded. You can troubleshoot that by connecting a wire from one side of the rag joint to the other, or just running a jumper from anywhere on the column to the engine ground. If pressing the horn now works, you need to create a jumper around the rag joint.
To test the horn relay and horns, ground the black wire coming out of the horn relay where the white arrow is in this picture (right beside the green wire in the same connector, the horns should blow as long as the jumper is connected. If it does not, the relay is bad, or the horns are bad or not grounded. Ground this black wire to eliminate the relay and horns as a possibility
As a side note, am I able to pull the switch up out of the hub area without disconnecting the wires at the connector? It would make it easier to test the black wire for continuity.
As a side note, am I able to pull the switch up out of the hub area without disconnecting the wires at the connector? It would make it easier to test the black wire for continuity.
No, but you don't need to. The switch doesn't affect the black wire, it just happens to be close by. You can check continuity all the way from the black wire I showed you in the picture to the horn cap parts at one time if you have a long enough meter lead. You seem to be ignoring the tips I gave you to eliminate the relay and horns. If you'll pull the cap off, pull the three screws and lift the horn button assy off, you can see the horn contact that lifts out. Pull that out and stick your screwdriver down in the hole where the contact came out. Ground that screwdriver while keeping it in contact with the plate down in there. If the horn blows, your entire black wire circuit including the relay and horns are good, and the problem is in the parts you just pulled out. If it doesn't blow, you need to go back to my previous post and check the black wire at the relay and across the rag joint. I feel like you're more intent on pulling parts than you are troubleshooting. One step at a time will help you find the problem.
No, but you don't need to. The switch doesn't affect the black wire, it just happens to be close by. You can check continuity all the way from the black wire I showed you in the picture to the horn cap parts at one time if you have a long enough meter lead. You seem to be ignoring the tips I gave you to eliminate the relay and horns. If you'll pull the cap off, pull the three screws and lift the horn button assy off, you can see the horn contact that lifts out. Pull that out and stick your screwdriver down in the hole where the contact came out. Ground that screwdriver while keeping it in contact with the plate down in there. If the horn blows, your entire black wire circuit including the relay and horns are good, and the problem is in the parts you just pulled out. If it doesn't blow, you need to go back to my previous post and check the black wire at the relay and across the rag joint. I feel like you're more intent on pulling parts than you are troubleshooting. One step at a time will help you find the problem.
If the relay was bad would I get power to the black wire at the connector on the column????? I would think that it would not. I tested that and had power. If you read my post a 11:09 yesterday I indicated that I did put a screwdriver onto the brass ring and went to ground, I got nothing. In order for me to check continuity on the black wire I have to take it apart. The reason for this that the brass ring may have unplugged itself from the switch when I reset the column. I will give the jumper across the relay to ground but I believe that the relay is still good. I don't treasure the idea of pulling things apart but it may be the only way to solve this.
If the relay was bad would I get power to the black wire at the connector on the column????? I would think that it would not. I tested that and had power. If you read my post a 11:09 yesterday I indicated that I did put a screwdriver onto the brass ring and went to ground, I got nothing. In order for me to check continuity on the black wire I have to take it apart. The reason for this that the brass ring may have unplugged itself from the switch when I reset the column. I will give the jumper across the relay to ground but I believe that the relay is still good. I don't treasure the idea of pulling things apart but it may be the only way to solve this.
I'll try one more time in a little different way. You need to forget about "power" and "current" to the column. There is none. There is only a black wire which offers a ground to the horn relay on the radiator support. If you jump the black wire at the relay that I pictured and the horn blows, that means that your column isn't grounded, or the horn button in the picture with the red outlined arrow in the diagram isn't making contact, or the black wire is broken. If it does not blow, it means your problem is from the relay forward. The relay can absolutely be bad, having bad or corroded contacts, and the horn will not blow, regardless of how good everything else is. The black ground wire does not go through the relay contacts, only the green wire 12v to the horn does. The black wire only comes off the coil in the relay to provide a return (ground) for that coil which pulls the contacts closed to sent 12v to the horn. Nothing is sent to the column by those contacts. You can simply in five seconds eliminate the relay, horns and horn grounds by shorting that black wire to ground. Then, if it blows there, short the black wire going into the column to ground (not the column, but to ground). The horn should blow. If it does, short it to the column, if it does not blow now, your column isn't grounded to the frame. If it does blow when shorted to the column, your problem is in the horn button or horn contact at the top.
If you pulled the horn button out and measured with a voltmeter down in the hole to the plate, you would read 12v because it is an open circuit back through the coil to 12v source, but the instant you connect that to ground by short or by blowing the horn, that 12v will drop to zero and close the horn relay contacts up front. So if you actually measured 12v on the plate that the horn button touches down in the hole in the steering column, your black wire has to be good all the way through and the horn isn't working up around the relay due to either bad horns or bad ground up there, or bad relay contacts. If you had 12v there and shorting it to the column didn't blow the horns, but the 12v dropped to zero, that is a further indication that you have bad horns or a bad relay. Just jump the black wire where I put the white arrow in the horn relay picture to ground and post back what happened and we can take a step at a time.
Jumped it across the relay and horns worked. Pulled all of the wiring through the hub and I did not find a broken wire. Checked continuity and I did get 0.1 on a 200 ohm scale. Hooked the battery back up and shorted the brass ring across to the steering shaft and the horn worked. Put it all back together (except the horn contact ring and the steering wheel center cap) and checked it again. The horn worked. Thinking I need a new horn contact ring. Mine is kind of corroded and might be easier to replace that and go from there.
before buying a new one contact. remove the hold one and ground out the wire or plunger it connects too. if the horn blows then its the contact
That is what I did to determine that the contact button retainer may be suspect. I already ordered a new one from LIC. The original problem could not have been the contact button retainer as I did not have any type of power to the brass ring on the switch. Not sure exactly what the problem was but I hope I got it fixed now.
There should never be 12 volts to the horn contact. The contact is the ground. The horn relay has a full 12 volts at all times. But no ground or the horns would blow all the time. When you press the horn button it completes the ground circuit allowing the horns to blow.
There should never be 12 volts to the horn contact. The contact is the ground. The horn relay has a full 12 volts at all times. But no ground or the horns would blow all the time. When you press the horn button it completes the ground circuit allowing the horns to blow.
07-27-2016, 09:50 AM
Horn Button
As usual 65GGvert is right on. I've had to tinker with my horn setup more than once due to the button being just a little bit off in its mounting..
