Originally Posted by LouieM

OP here. I didn't have a chance to get the Muncie attended to before the Thanksgiving and Christmas bombs hit. Then it started raining a lot here in northern Calif.

But, last week I was driving around town and the "Stuck in Neutral" thing happened several times in a row, as follows: Pull up to red light; push in clutch pedal and put shifter into Neutral; take foot off clutch pedal. When light turns green, push in clutch pedal and TRY to put shifter in First. Shifter won't go into First or any gear, including Reverse. After several attempts to put shifter into ANY gear, I turned off the engine (keeping the clutch pedal pushed down), upon which the shifter instantly went into First, Second, Third, Fourth and Reverse one after the other. This happened several times in a few minutes, so it is a big, fat clue to what is wrong with the rebuilt Muncie. Unfortunately, I don't know how to interpret this clue.

After getting stuck in Neutral several times, as described above, the Muncie shifter worked fine the rest of the day, which included a 50-mile drive with several stops.

Anyone have a clue about what is happening with this M20?

Lou

Originally Posted by GTOguy

Shifting into neutral at a red light is common sense....it saves wear on the thrust bearing in the engine, the throw out bearing, and if you get rear ended, your foot won't slip off the clutch and shoot you into traffic. Professional drivers always take it out of gear at a light. Stop sign, not needed. From what I can determine, the mainshaft is turning when it shouldn't, and preventing the gears from engaging. So either the clutch isn't disengaging, or the pilot bushing/bearing is locked up on the mainshaft so that the crank is always turning it unless the crankshaft isn't turning itself (engine off). Could be anything, but I would start with clutch adjustment (removing free-play) or pilot bushing seizure.

Originally Posted by GTOguy

Dub, I too have seen and worked on too many customer engines that were absolutely trashed (particularly Fords for some reason) by drivers who rode the clutch and kept the pedal depressed at stop lights. These are the same drivers that complain of worn out syncros and drive with their hand resting on the shifter at all times....no concept of how mechanical things actually work. (and break!)

Originally Posted by DUB

Shifting into neutral at a stop light is what I do...and I don't ride the clutch. Actually I keep the amount of time pressing in on the clutch to a minimum...so I shift rather quickly. IF people feel that riding the clutch is just fine......then maybe they will be like the one customer I had that had the end play of his crankshaft be so bad that the counter weights of the crankshaft were beginning to swipe on the side of the main bearing caps. That engine...if my memory serves me correctly had .065" end play...when the end play should be about .008".


This is what I wrote way back in POST #7.


I am still going with the input shaft and crankshaft are binding and thus...the car will not go into gear and it feels like you are hitting a wall when you try to shift...BUT...like he wrote...he shuts off the engine and it gores into gear...THAT is why I fell it is an input shaft and pilot bearing issue. I honestly feel it has NOTHING to do with clutch adjustment.

DUB

Originally Posted by LouieM

I think you're right. We've already tried adjusting free play and it did nothing. Next step will be pulling the tranny and putting in a new Centerforce II and bronze pilot bushing. I've never heard of input shaft/crankshaft binding, but enough others here have; it's about the only thing left to look into.

Originally Posted by DUB

Make sure the pilot bushing is NOT magnetic...even if it looks like bronze. Test it. It needs to be the oilite bronze type,

To prevent the pilot bushing from damage....special care MUST be used when installing the transmission and not just slamming it in place. NOT 'saying' that you would do that...I am just saying. Do not let the transmission 'hang' when you get it to go into the clutch disc also.

And...I know if it were me ..and I had your car at my shop...I would preform the bore concentricity check to make sure the bell housing is correctly positioned and centered. I know Centerforce puts that paper work in with their clutch.

Not that you asked...but you might want to look ta SPEC clutches and flywheels. They are who I use and I am not making a red cent off of this endorsement. They have proven to be all that they say and my choice for one major reason. Their balancing of the assembly is better than what other companies do....which is Detroit specs.....which as I have been told is 50 grams.

DUB

Originally Posted by LouieM

DUB, thanks for being so concerned about my tranny issues. I would never dream of using anything but an oilite bronze bushing and being gentle when installing the Muncie, and my mechanic feels the same way. Check with a magnet for sure, even if the package says "oilite." I'm not 100% certain he checked bell housing concentricity/centering this time, but this has been done in the past. I'll ask the mechanic about his experience with SPEC clutches; I've had very good experience for many years with Centerforce II.

Lou

Originally Posted by GTOguy

Shifting into neutral at a red light is common sense....it saves wear on the thrust bearing in the engine, the throw out bearing, and if you get rear ended, your foot won't slip off the clutch and shoot you into traffic. Professional drivers always take it out of gear at a light. Stop sign, not needed. From what I can determine, the mainshaft is turning when it shouldn't, and preventing the gears from engaging. So either the clutch isn't disengaging, or the pilot bushing/bearing is locked up on the mainshaft so that the crank is always turning it unless the crankshaft isn't turning itself (engine off). Could be anything, but I would start with clutch adjustment (removing free-play) or pilot bushing seizure.

Originally Posted by GTOguy

Shifting into neutral at a red light is common sense....it saves wear on the thrust bearing in the engine, the throw out bearing, and if you get rear ended, your foot won't slip off the clutch and shoot you into traffic. Professional drivers always take it out of gear at a light. Stop sign, not needed. From what I can determine, the mainshaft is turning when it shouldn't, and preventing the gears from engaging. So either the clutch isn't disengaging, or the pilot bushing/bearing is locked up on the mainshaft so that the crank is always turning it unless the crankshaft isn't turning itself (engine off). Could be anything, but I would start with clutch adjustment (removing free-play) or pilot bushing seizure.

Originally Posted by 65Pearl

I have the identical problem. I tried various things over the past summer with no success including adjusting the clutch, inspecting the linkage, pulled the Trans again to replace the pilot bearing with a bushing. It's so frustrating ... One other thing I've yet to try is to replace the synthetic oil with regular gear oil.
Please post the answer to your problem when you fine it. I suspect we have the same problem as the circumstances you've described sound exactly what I've experienced.

Originally Posted by LouieM

Sorry to hear you are experiencing the same frustrating problem. You put in a new (oilite?) bronze bushing, and the problem didn't go away .... uh-oh, that's the fix I'm focused on right now.

Early in this thread I mentioned that I replaced the synthetic oil that the mechanic put in with AGL4 dino oil and it didn't help. This problem in my car also happened BEFORE I had the tranny rebuild, although it didn't happen much. I also had the shift linkage replaced. So, the only thing left untouched was the clutch and existing oilite pilot bushing.

BTW the Muncie rebuilt parts were bought from Auto Gear, a top supplier. By any chance, did your rebuild parts come from the same place?

Originally Posted by Frankie the Fink

Done it that way since I was 14. I always arrive at a stop light in neutral and NEVER use the shifter **** as a hand rest for all of the above reasons.

Originally Posted by 65Pearl

I know you replaced your oil with no resolution but I need to at least try it out of desperation. Since there is no drain plug on my 65 I will probably drain and replace twice.

Keep us posted on your progress.