Problems with newly rebuilt Muncie - Page 2 - CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion



C1 & C2 Corvettes
General C1 Corvette & C2 Corvette Discussion, Technical Info, Performance Upgrades, Project Builds, Restorations
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Problems with newly rebuilt Muncie

Reply
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-14-2017, 11:27 AM   #21
GTOguy
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
GTOguy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2015
Location: Fresno California
Posts: 2,979
Thanked 275 Times in 252 Posts
Default

Shifting into neutral at a red light is common sense....it saves wear on the thrust bearing in the engine, the throw out bearing, and if you get rear ended, your foot won't slip off the clutch and shoot you into traffic. Professional drivers always take it out of gear at a light. Stop sign, not needed. From what I can determine, the mainshaft is turning when it shouldn't, and preventing the gears from engaging. So either the clutch isn't disengaging, or the pilot bushing/bearing is locked up on the mainshaft so that the crank is always turning it unless the crankshaft isn't turning itself (engine off). Could be anything, but I would start with clutch adjustment (removing free-play) or pilot bushing seizure.
GTOguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 01:20 PM   #22
DSR
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: Durham ON
Posts: 634
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouieM View Post
OP here. I didn't have a chance to get the Muncie attended to before the Thanksgiving and Christmas bombs hit. Then it started raining a lot here in northern Calif.

But, last week I was driving around town and the "Stuck in Neutral" thing happened several times in a row, as follows: Pull up to red light; push in clutch pedal and put shifter into Neutral; take foot off clutch pedal. When light turns green, push in clutch pedal and TRY to put shifter in First. Shifter won't go into First or any gear, including Reverse. After several attempts to put shifter into ANY gear, I turned off the engine (keeping the clutch pedal pushed down), upon which the shifter instantly went into First, Second, Third, Fourth and Reverse one after the other. This happened several times in a few minutes, so it is a big, fat clue to what is wrong with the rebuilt Muncie. Unfortunately, I don't know how to interpret this clue.

After getting stuck in Neutral several times, as described above, the Muncie shifter worked fine the rest of the day, which included a 50-mile drive with several stops.

Anyone have a clue about what is happening with this M20?

Lou
The motor is not dis-engaging completely from transmission. Clutch adjustment?

Last edited by DSR; 02-14-2017 at 01:21 PM.
DSR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 06:47 PM   #23
DUB
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Apr 2009
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 12,998
Thanked 884 Times in 811 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOguy View Post
Shifting into neutral at a red light is common sense....it saves wear on the thrust bearing in the engine, the throw out bearing, and if you get rear ended, your foot won't slip off the clutch and shoot you into traffic. Professional drivers always take it out of gear at a light. Stop sign, not needed. From what I can determine, the mainshaft is turning when it shouldn't, and preventing the gears from engaging. So either the clutch isn't disengaging, or the pilot bushing/bearing is locked up on the mainshaft so that the crank is always turning it unless the crankshaft isn't turning itself (engine off). Could be anything, but I would start with clutch adjustment (removing free-play) or pilot bushing seizure.
Shifting into neutral at a stop light is what I do...and I don't ride the clutch. Actually I keep the amount of time pressing in on the clutch to a minimum...so I shift rather quickly. IF people feel that riding the clutch is just fine......then maybe they will be like the one customer I had that had the end play of his crankshaft be so bad that the counter weights of the crankshaft were beginning to swipe on the side of the main bearing caps. That engine...if my memory serves me correctly had .065" end play...when the end play should be about .008".


This is what I wrote way back in POST #7.


I am still going with the input shaft and crankshaft are binding and thus...the car will not go into gear and it feels like you are hitting a wall when you try to shift...BUT...like he wrote...he shuts off the engine and it gores into gear...THAT is why I fell it is an input shaft and pilot bearing issue. I honestly feel it has NOTHING to do with clutch adjustment.

DUB
DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 06:54 PM   #24
GTOguy
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
GTOguy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2015
Location: Fresno California
Posts: 2,979
Thanked 275 Times in 252 Posts
Default

Dub, I too have seen and worked on too many customer engines that were absolutely trashed (particularly Fords for some reason) by drivers who rode the clutch and kept the pedal depressed at stop lights. These are the same drivers that complain of worn out syncros and drive with their hand resting on the shifter at all times....no concept of how mechanical things actually work. (and break!)
GTOguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 07:06 PM   #25
DUB
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Apr 2009
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 12,998
Thanked 884 Times in 811 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOguy View Post
Dub, I too have seen and worked on too many customer engines that were absolutely trashed (particularly Fords for some reason) by drivers who rode the clutch and kept the pedal depressed at stop lights. These are the same drivers that complain of worn out syncros and drive with their hand resting on the shifter at all times....no concept of how mechanical things actually work. (and break!)
YEP...and when I try to suggest a different way of doing something...that can actually save them MONEY.....then I get the response. "I have been doing it like this all my life...no need to change now"....and I tell them..."And you have been doing it wrong all that time".

People like that...when stuff goes bad....I have no mercy on them...I don't gouge them...but they will pay for every second of my time......because they MUST OBVIOUSLY know better than I do. I had customer in a 1996 that wiped out the new clutch in less than 300 miles....and I know this because he rode with me so I could show him how I wanted him to drive it ...and when he pulled out of the parking lot...he was already romping on it..and the car had not even had 5 miles on the new clutch i installed. Needless to say...that warranty went right out the window on the day of him picking it up.

DUB
DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 07:10 PM   #26
hope2
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta Georgia
Posts: 1,368
Thanked 42 Times in 32 Posts
Default

problem before and after transmission work, kinda leads right to Dub. input shaft/pilot bushing.
hope2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 07:33 PM   #27
LouieM
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
LouieM's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2002
Location: NorCal CA
Posts: 6,026
Thanked 67 Times in 62 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUB View Post
Shifting into neutral at a stop light is what I do...and I don't ride the clutch. Actually I keep the amount of time pressing in on the clutch to a minimum...so I shift rather quickly. IF people feel that riding the clutch is just fine......then maybe they will be like the one customer I had that had the end play of his crankshaft be so bad that the counter weights of the crankshaft were beginning to swipe on the side of the main bearing caps. That engine...if my memory serves me correctly had .065" end play...when the end play should be about .008".


This is what I wrote way back in POST #7.


I am still going with the input shaft and crankshaft are binding and thus...the car will not go into gear and it feels like you are hitting a wall when you try to shift...BUT...like he wrote...he shuts off the engine and it gores into gear...THAT is why I fell it is an input shaft and pilot bearing issue. I honestly feel it has NOTHING to do with clutch adjustment.

DUB
I think you're right. We've already tried adjusting free play and it did nothing. Next step will be pulling the tranny and putting in a new Centerforce II and bronze pilot bushing. I've never heard of input shaft/crankshaft binding, but enough others here have; it's about the only thing left to look into.
LouieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 07:45 PM   #28
DUB
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Apr 2009
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 12,998
Thanked 884 Times in 811 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouieM View Post
I think you're right. We've already tried adjusting free play and it did nothing. Next step will be pulling the tranny and putting in a new Centerforce II and bronze pilot bushing. I've never heard of input shaft/crankshaft binding, but enough others here have; it's about the only thing left to look into.
Make sure the pilot bushing is NOT magnetic...even if it looks like bronze. Test it. It needs to be the oilite bronze type,

To prevent the pilot bushing from damage....special care MUST be used when installing the transmission and not just slamming it in place. NOT 'saying' that you would do that...I am just saying. Do not let the transmission 'hang' when you get it to go into the clutch disc also.

And...I know if it were me ..and I had your car at my shop...I would preform the bore concentricity check to make sure the bell housing is correctly positioned and centered. I know Centerforce puts that paper work in with their clutch.

Not that you asked...but you might want to look ta SPEC clutches and flywheels. They are who I use and I am not making a red cent off of this endorsement. They have proven to be all that they say and my choice for one major reason. Their balancing of the assembly is better than what other companies do....which is Detroit specs.....which as I have been told is 50 grams.

DUB
DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 09:40 PM   #29
LouieM
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
LouieM's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2002
Location: NorCal CA
Posts: 6,026
Thanked 67 Times in 62 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUB View Post
Make sure the pilot bushing is NOT magnetic...even if it looks like bronze. Test it. It needs to be the oilite bronze type,

To prevent the pilot bushing from damage....special care MUST be used when installing the transmission and not just slamming it in place. NOT 'saying' that you would do that...I am just saying. Do not let the transmission 'hang' when you get it to go into the clutch disc also.

And...I know if it were me ..and I had your car at my shop...I would preform the bore concentricity check to make sure the bell housing is correctly positioned and centered. I know Centerforce puts that paper work in with their clutch.

Not that you asked...but you might want to look ta SPEC clutches and flywheels. They are who I use and I am not making a red cent off of this endorsement. They have proven to be all that they say and my choice for one major reason. Their balancing of the assembly is better than what other companies do....which is Detroit specs.....which as I have been told is 50 grams.

DUB
DUB, thanks for being so concerned about my tranny issues. I would never dream of using anything but an oilite bronze bushing and being gentle when installing the Muncie, and my mechanic feels the same way. Check with a magnet for sure, even if the package says "oilite." I'm not 100% certain he checked bell housing concentricity/centering this time, but this has been done in the past. I'll ask the mechanic about his experience with SPEC clutches; I've had very good experience for many years with Centerforce II.

Lou
LouieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 07:12 PM   #30
DUB
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Apr 2009
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 12,998
Thanked 884 Times in 811 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouieM View Post
DUB, thanks for being so concerned about my tranny issues. I would never dream of using anything but an oilite bronze bushing and being gentle when installing the Muncie, and my mechanic feels the same way. Check with a magnet for sure, even if the package says "oilite." I'm not 100% certain he checked bell housing concentricity/centering this time, but this has been done in the past. I'll ask the mechanic about his experience with SPEC clutches; I've had very good experience for many years with Centerforce II.

Lou


Like I wrote...not selling you anything...just a suggestion.

DUB
DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 07:20 PM   #31
Frankie the Fink
Hobbyist..
Support Corvetteforum!
 
Frankie the Fink's Avatar
 
Member Since: Aug 2007
Location: Winter Garden Florida
Posts: 34,342
Thanked 821 Times in 718 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOguy View Post
Shifting into neutral at a red light is common sense....it saves wear on the thrust bearing in the engine, the throw out bearing, and if you get rear ended, your foot won't slip off the clutch and shoot you into traffic. Professional drivers always take it out of gear at a light. Stop sign, not needed. From what I can determine, the mainshaft is turning when it shouldn't, and preventing the gears from engaging. So either the clutch isn't disengaging, or the pilot bushing/bearing is locked up on the mainshaft so that the crank is always turning it unless the crankshaft isn't turning itself (engine off). Could be anything, but I would start with clutch adjustment (removing free-play) or pilot bushing seizure.
Done it that way since I was 14. I always arrive at a stop light in neutral and NEVER use the shifter **** as a hand rest for all of the above reasons.
Frankie the Fink is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 09:47 PM   #32
OldKarz
CF Senior Member
 
OldKarz's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2007
Location: On the bank of the Columbia River..... Washington State
Posts: 3,886
Thanked 23 Times in 23 Posts
Default

At this point I would follow the input that DUB has offered, as most everything else has been ruled out...Good luck!
OldKarz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 11:51 PM   #33
LouieM
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
LouieM's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2002
Location: NorCal CA
Posts: 6,026
Thanked 67 Times in 62 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTOguy View Post
Shifting into neutral at a red light is common sense....it saves wear on the thrust bearing in the engine, the throw out bearing, and if you get rear ended, your foot won't slip off the clutch and shoot you into traffic. Professional drivers always take it out of gear at a light. Stop sign, not needed. From what I can determine, the mainshaft is turning when it shouldn't, and preventing the gears from engaging. So either the clutch isn't disengaging, or the pilot bushing/bearing is locked up on the mainshaft so that the crank is always turning it unless the crankshaft isn't turning itself (engine off). Could be anything, but I would start with clutch adjustment (removing free-play) or pilot bushing seizure.
Thanks for your succinct summary of the situation. Once we get some dry days locally I'll have the car in the shop. Obviously, the clutch & pilot bushing will get changed. Free play adjustment, done already, hasn't affected the situation.
LouieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 12:08 AM   #34
65Pearl
Junior Member
 
Member Since: Jul 2007
Location: Troy Pa
Posts: 6
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I have the identical problem. I tried various things over the past summer with no success including adjusting the clutch, inspecting the linkage, pulled the Trans again to replace the pilot bearing with a bushing. It's so frustrating ... One other thing I've yet to try is to replace the synthetic oil with regular gear oil.
Please post the answer to your problem when you fine it. I suspect we have the same problem as the circumstances you've described sound exactly what I've experienced.
65Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 01:51 AM   #35
LouieM
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
LouieM's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2002
Location: NorCal CA
Posts: 6,026
Thanked 67 Times in 62 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Pearl View Post
I have the identical problem. I tried various things over the past summer with no success including adjusting the clutch, inspecting the linkage, pulled the Trans again to replace the pilot bearing with a bushing. It's so frustrating ... One other thing I've yet to try is to replace the synthetic oil with regular gear oil.
Please post the answer to your problem when you fine it. I suspect we have the same problem as the circumstances you've described sound exactly what I've experienced.
Sorry to hear you are experiencing the same frustrating problem. You put in a new (oilite?) bronze bushing, and the problem didn't go away .... uh-oh, that's the fix I'm focused on right now.

Early in this thread I mentioned that I replaced the synthetic oil that the mechanic put in with AGL4 dino oil and it didn't help. This problem in my car also happened BEFORE I had the tranny rebuild, although it didn't happen much. I also had the shift linkage replaced. So, the only thing left untouched was the clutch and existing oilite pilot bushing.

BTW the Muncie rebuilt parts were bought from Auto Gear, a top supplier. By any chance, did your rebuild parts come from the same place?
LouieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 10:58 AM   #36
65Pearl
Junior Member
 
Member Since: Jul 2007
Location: Troy Pa
Posts: 6
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouieM View Post
Sorry to hear you are experiencing the same frustrating problem. You put in a new (oilite?) bronze bushing, and the problem didn't go away .... uh-oh, that's the fix I'm focused on right now.

Early in this thread I mentioned that I replaced the synthetic oil that the mechanic put in with AGL4 dino oil and it didn't help. This problem in my car also happened BEFORE I had the tranny rebuild, although it didn't happen much. I also had the shift linkage replaced. So, the only thing left untouched was the clutch and existing oilite pilot bushing.

BTW the Muncie rebuilt parts were bought from Auto Gear, a top supplier. By any chance, did your rebuild parts come from the same place?
Yes we put in a new oilite bronze bushing. The Muncie rebuild parts came from D&L transmissions. My mechanic had called centerforce about the problem and they told him that they had experienced the same problem in some of their race cars that had synthetic oil in their trannys and resolved the problem with regular gear oil. I know you replaced your oil with no resolution but I need to at least try it out of desperation. Since there is no drain plug on my 65 I will probably drain and replace twice.

Keep us posted on your progress.
65Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 11:54 AM   #37
babbah
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
babbah's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,601
Thanked 78 Times in 73 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie the Fink View Post
Done it that way since I was 14. I always arrive at a stop light in neutral and NEVER use the shifter **** as a hand rest for all of the above reasons.
Ive been doing the same since I was a teenager when I got my 1967 Vette.

I have changed the clutch ONCE in 1969 and that same clutch is still in it TODAY and still works perfectly like new. My clutch is now 48 years old - "They don't build 'em like they used to". (It's a stock GM 11" HD Big Block Diaphragm Unit)

If you know how to drive a 4 speed properly, and don't ride the clutch and stay in neutral without pressing the clutch in at red lights, you will have the same result as I have.
babbah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 02:12 PM   #38
LouieM
CF Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
LouieM's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2002
Location: NorCal CA
Posts: 6,026
Thanked 67 Times in 62 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65Pearl View Post
I know you replaced your oil with no resolution but I need to at least try it out of desperation. Since there is no drain plug on my 65 I will probably drain and replace twice.

Keep us posted on your progress.
"desperation" -- I know the feeling well! I'll be sure to keep the group posted. This time around I had the mechanic add a drain plug to my M20, after thinking about it for a couple decades.
LouieM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 04:07 PM   #39
427Hotrod
CF Senior Member
 
427Hotrod's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jan 2000
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 9,949
Thanks: 0
Thanked 187 Times in 150 Posts
Default

Even though freeplay has been played with...and chance the clutch pedal is coming apart?

It's a very common issue for the pedal to get loose where it is pressed onto the pivot shaft under the dash. When you push on it, it feels/looks like it's going all the way, but in reality the pedal is moving to the left and you lose a lot of travel. Just a thought...I've had it happen on a couple of C-2's. Actually same thing happened on my 5.0 Mustang years ago..but it was a nut/bolt under there.

JIM
427Hotrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 07:41 PM   #40
GTOguy
CF Senior Member
Support Corvetteforum!
 
GTOguy's Avatar
 
Member Since: Apr 2015
Location: Fresno California
Posts: 2,979
Thanked 275 Times in 252 Posts
Default

Getting under the car and having a helper depress the pedal all the way would be a quick and easy way to check for full actuation of the clutch release arm......He should try this first, and eliminate ALL free play and see what happens. That's what I'd do before yanking the trans out. If the clutch isn't releasing, though, it has to be the pilot and mainshaft staying engaged.
GTOguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Go Back   CorvetteForum - Chevrolet Corvette Forum Discussion >
Reload this Page
  • Problems with newly rebuilt Muncie
  •  
     
    Reply

    Related Topics
    Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
    Muncie Problems Trent McInturff C3 Tech/Performance 11 02-08-2016 10:19 PM
    Trans Linkage Questions/Issues Chinaski C3 Tech/Performance 2 09-02-2014 02:47 PM
    Transmission shifter and linkage delima dharris45 C1 & C2 Corvettes 4 03-30-2012 07:02 PM
    Issue with Rebuilt M21 Muncie 4 Speed 1981Z06Vette C3 Tech/Performance 4 09-01-2010 09:16 AM
    muncie problem - synchros? PRNDL C3 Tech/Performance 17 07-12-2006 01:55 PM


    Thread Tools Search this Thread
    Search this Thread:

    Click for Advanced Search

    Posting Rules
    You may not post new threads
    You may not post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are Off
    Pingbacks are Off
    Refbacks are Off

    Forum Jump


    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:31 PM.


     
    • Ask a Question
      Get answers from community experts
    What's your question?
    Send