Critter1

For NCRS members that are able to search their archives, I posted a good discussion on engine stamp character size. Search for a discussion called Engine Stamp Pad Characters, posted by Michael Hanson on 4 Dec 2005 at 2:10 AM.

John Hinckley read it at that time and agreed with me.

For a long time NCRS showed the incorrect size of the stamp character size and soon after the discussion, they corrected their manuals.

I think a lot of folks still think the Flint/Tonawanda characters are 1/4" tall. They're not.

I have the entire discussion copied but I don't think we're allowed to copy/paste posts from their site here.

If someone does look it up, copy the link and post it here

EDIT: Here's the link to the original post from 2005. Thanks PT.

http://www.ncrs.org/forums/showthrea...Pad-Characters

http://www.ncrs.org/forums/archive/i...p/t-35694.html

Mike Terry

For a long time NCRS showed the incorrect size of the stamp character size and soon after the discussion, they corrected their manuals.

What, take my breath away. You mean to tell me that the NCRS made a mistake for a long time and all the cars that they judged were judged incorrectly? I am sure that makes the guy who had an all original car think twice about trusting the NCRS and there judging ability. How do you go back to all the car they miss judged and say I am sorry I made a mistake?????

Frankie the Fink

They don't do it on individual items on a specific car, so I doubt they do it for gross mistakes affecting lots of cars. And don't talk to me about the post-judging, scoring appeals process, been there, done that, and, did NOT get the T-shirt...

Critter1

My posts on stamp characters here and at the NCRS site years ago were not meant to be taken negatively. It wasn't bashing the organization, at all. The difference in dimensions are subtle and easily mistaken. The discussions are meant to be educational.

Frankie the Fink

Duly noted!

kenba

I believe you need to measure a steel stamp from point to point not the base. One would need a actual original stamp to tell. Also NCRS has made MANY changes and have revised all the guides numerous times. I'm on my third 1967 one so how can one say that NCRS doesn't change.

Critter1

Yes, that's correct. I discussed this in detail in the original discussion. If you're an NCRS member, look up the discussion in their archives. I posted the date and topic in my first post so it will be easy to find.

It's good information for everyone. Not just the Bloomington Gold and NCRS judges. It's also for those looking to buy a car and would like to know more about how to detect a fake engine number stamp.

Mike Terry

Some one get Frankie a Tee Shirt.

Patrick67

Cranky, is this it? PT

http://www.ncrs.org/forums/archive/i...p/t-35694.html

Critter1

Yup, that's it. Thanks PT. I'll copy and add the link to my original post. I'll also add the images that are not shown in that discussion. I suppose images are deleted in archived discussions.

kenba

The stamps were tapered at about 30 degrees so there is NO way to judge the height of the character as the deeper the impression the wider it gets when stamped. Not rocket science. Total width of all characters would be hard to judge also.

Critter1

If you read the entire post at that link, you would know that I addressed that topic.

You would also know that if the Flint or Tonawanda characters were actually 1/4" instead of the correct 3/16", as most people thought, the length of the group would be at least one character too long.

The entire engine plant seven character stamp length using 1/4" tall characters would be 1.625" long. It would be 1.218" long using the correct 3/16" character stamp. Do the math.

Below is the ratio of dimensions on each character slug. The slug is as wide as the character is tall. I used 3/8" because the math is easier.

Critter1

I don't think anyone here is getting this.

SW Vette

I think I get it. If I wanted to take a measurement, I ought to measure the length of the entire group of characters, not just each one individually, is that correct?

Critter1

Exactly. You are correct.

Critter1

When David Burroughs of Bloomington Gold decided he wanted me to be the "Stamp Inspector" in the late 80's, I made a few tools to quickly measure the length of the stamped numbers on the blocks. Crude but they worked. I could immediatly see if a stamp was a home brew or original. Many were at least 1/4" too long or too short. (because they were individually hand stamped) The real stamp characters fit perfectly in the home made tool.

ejboyd5

I wonder how many original blocks may have been restamped to conform to the erroneous standard of the day. To me, any such alteration or "correction" of truly original items to match a judging book is one of the biggest failures of the system. Over the years many nonstandard, yet original, parts such as appear in any production run have been sacrificed to gather judging points at the expense of preserving anomalies that should be celebrated and added to the judging standards as accetable.

emccomas

The late Dale Pearman taught me how to check VIN derivatives and engine stamps.

He would put a piece of scotch tape on the engine pad, then run a #2 pencil over the numbers. The numbers would appear on the scotch tape.

He then removed the scotch tape, put it in his notebook, and covered it with a clean piece of scotch tape.

He then took out a vernier caliper and measured the height and width of the entire engine stamp, and the entire VIN derivative stamp of the scotch tape.

It was fascinating to watch him check numbers.