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NCRS Concours judging rollout Lakeland

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Old 01-13-2017, 03:29 PM   #21
Frankie the Fink
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I watched the judging of two concourse restomods today, yes, cleanliness is a factor.
The judges used typical judging sheets and apparently are going to cover the five areas just like "Flight" judging but with different criteria.

The judges are master level in some cases and not joking around. There is a dead serious attempt to have this new category get "legs" under it. I'm guardedly optimistic it may gain traction and would consider my car for the "Stock" division next year..

I left in early afternoon as I had shot my allotted bankroll for some original '63 parts and then some...

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Old 01-13-2017, 11:38 PM   #22
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So is there a deduction for American Mags Torq-Thrust D wheels and radial tires?
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Old 01-14-2017, 02:05 AM   #23
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One of the team leaders and a judge for the concours class told me Friday that he expects only one judge per car as opposed to the flight judging teams. He also said the judging sheets were still in a state of flux and wasn't sure how they will be filled out. Sure seems like a test run to me!

edit: apparently FTF saw it differently than I was told...

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Old 01-14-2017, 05:30 AM   #24
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OK, all rumors aside, here is how it went down.

My car was judged in the building, with the "flight judged" cars. The 5 concours cars were included, and treated as "part of the process". All of the judges were master level. There were two judges per section (mechanical, interior, exterior, and chassis). I would say that the judging was just as intense, with no concern for originality. The judging sheets were well done, with a single column for "Appearance". The the judging sheets were laid out just like a flight judged sheet, with specific line items. As and example: On the exterior, you had fit and finish overall. Front and rear bumpers, lightning, glass, trim, etc., with much detail in some areas. Points were assigned to each, with deducts taken (subjectively, of course). The total points available are 2,200 for all 4 sections, plus operations. There are two levels of award in each class. Just like the flight system, if you score 94% or better, of the 2,200, you receive a "427" Concours award. Then there is the "327" Concours ribbon/certificate for 83% to 93%.

Here are some observations. Judging was very well done, and fair. This is NOT NCCC judging. The key work here is "Appearance", which includes "dirt and bugs", but is not entirely "dirt and bugs". To give some examples, I lost points for the bolts holding my lower hood hinges, as the "washer heads" hung slightly over the edge of the hinge. I should have used a "better fitting bolt/washer". I agree with that. I lost points for wiring under the front valance that could have been "tighter", and maybe wrapped. I agree with that. I lost points for holes in the body, and the rocker moldings that were intended to hold the heat/splash shields in the corners of the engine bay. I should have plugged the holes, or installed a shield. I agree with that. I also lost points for rust, crumbs, dirt, and dents in various places (very NCCC like), and I agree with that. I lost other points, which I also agree with. Workmanship, fit and finish, dents and scratches, rust and dirt, are all part of "appearance".

The score sheets were detailed enough to allow the judges to apply deductions for "appearance" for very specific areas of the car. There was a "general cleanliness category in each judging section worth 20 points. You can have a radial tires, mags, tinted windows, and a pink dipstick....

I was asked to remove one fuel rail cover on my LS3. I was asked to roll up the windows, and open the doors.

There was a LOT of interest in this process. There are still some old timers that don't support it, but my general impression is that the majority of the membership is behind this. It was a blast. I hope I answered all the questions.

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Old 01-14-2017, 06:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by survivor66 View Post
One of the team leaders and a judge for the concours class told me Friday that he expects only one judge per car as opposed to the flight judging teams. He also said the judging sheets were still in a state of flux and wasn't sure how they will be filled out. Sure seems like a test run to me!

edit: apparently FTF saw it differently than I was told...
I watched the judging for 40 minutes, saw the codified scoring sheets, talked to judges (two judges for Mike's '67 interior) and owners quite a bit and watched the interior judging on one car and the mechanical judging on another. This is what I observed in person. Of course its a 'test run'.....

I hope this takes off; it makes more sense to people like me that drive their cars, do slight mods for comfort/safety, use modern paint, but retain 95%+ of the originality in the 'stock' division.

As I dropped by the Judging Class standing around a split window on the tarmac I heard at least three things completely different from the latest 63/64 JG. Not trivial things as some pose either.

How the hell are newbies supposed to figure Flight judging out ?
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Old 01-15-2017, 02:30 PM   #26
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I asked Dave Brigham, the NCRS Judging Chairman, what will determine whether a Corvette is judged in the stock or modified class

**************************************** ***********

Dave,
Has it been decided yet, how many non-RPO changes will be allowed before a Corvette is no longer eligible to be judged in the Stock class? (Headers, 5 speed trans, extra gauges, aluminum heads for 327, etc).
I have a 1965 Corvette with a few non-RPO items (as well as correct size radial tires), that I'd like to prepare for judging.
Thanks,
Joe Ciaravino

Joe,
Appearance of exterior body when everything is closed up is the determinant. Under the hood changes are not a factor.
Dave

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Old 01-15-2017, 03:47 PM   #27
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Thanks for sharing this detail regarding the new Concours judging criteria.
This is MUCH better than the attempt NCRS made many years ago with the Sportsman class and is one I would consider attending with my 64 Restomod next year.

I always skipped attending the NCRS Winter Regionals because it was (to me) mostly about original Corvettes ONLY.

May see you guys next year......

Dan
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Old 01-15-2017, 04:17 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dcaggiani View Post
Thanks for sharing this detail regarding the new Concours judging criteria.
This is MUCH better than the attempt NCRS made many years ago with the Sportsman class and is one I would consider attending with my 64 Restomod next year.

I always skipped attending the NCRS Winter Regionals because it was (to me) mostly about original Corvettes ONLY.

May see you guys next year......

Dan
I'm sure that I'm not alone in this. I have openly suggested, to the point of ruffling feathers, being ignored, and even being temporarily banned from the NCRS website over this issue. I've been advocating for this since about 2005. I'm very excited that it is finally becoming a reality. This will hopefully supplant the LAME Sportsman award, and will bring enjoyment and competition to a huge number of beautiful, functional, and really better-than-new Corvettes out there that deserve recognition, and whose owners deserve to be offered the opportunity to participate in the same rigorous process that has been denied to them for far too long.

This should, hopefully, prolong the life of the NCRS, perhaps indefinitely because this new class of judging will surely attract a younger group of participants. I'm sure that most would agree that without Concours judging, the NCRS will be extinct with the demise of the boomers. Now, it's open to Gen X and Millennials.

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Old 01-15-2017, 04:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie the Fink View Post
I hope this takes off; it makes more sense to people like me that drive their cars, do slight mods for comfort/safety, use modern paint,
?
And have paint jobs that don't look like **** with orange peel and thin areas at the bottom, with properly matte (dry spray ) door jams??


Doug
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Old 01-15-2017, 04:46 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65tripleblack View Post
This should, hopefully, prolong the life of the NCRS, perhaps indefinitely because this new class of judging will surely attract a younger group of participants. I'm sure that most would agree that without Concours judging, the NCRS will be extinct with the demise of the boomers. Now, it's open to Gen X and Millennials.
You were ahead of your time.
NCRS was probably arm-twisted into this as a matter of long term survival. Regardless of how, I am glad they are changing with the times. There is room for all of us - survivors, restored to original, and RestoMods......
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Old 01-17-2017, 12:30 AM   #31
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I have daytime running lights, and use the running light sockets/ turn signal sockets. The circuit needed to be present to "cancel" the non-turn side, on the front lights, as to not confuse an on coming driver.

Interesting. Freightliner has had turn-signal DRL's for at least 15 years. They do NOT cancel the opposite side. After the turn signal stops, there is a delay in OFF, then the lamp resumes DRL function.
Because DRL's are NOT a Federal requirement (true. They are not required to be there.) there isn't much about them other than they can't obscure the front turn signals. Absolutely nothing about the other side needs to go off too. Freightliner, Porsche, and scores of others don't. A Restomod Corvette probably doesn't either. I'm thinking that someone had a personal opinion as to how DRL's are supposed to work, not how they need to work.


I'm a Level 300 NCRS judge. I know nothing about the Concours class yet. I'll be in Laughlin, and will check it out. Seems interesting, and enthusiasm like yours will help it to become a success. Thanks for participating.
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Old 01-17-2017, 12:44 AM   #32
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I'm sure that most would agree that without Concours judging, the NCRS will be extinct with the demise of the boomers. Now, it's open to Gen X and Millennials.
NCRS has always been open to "Gen-X and Millennials".


The common refrain is that Flight-Quality Corvettes aren't "affordable" to younger enthusiasts. Flight Quality C4's can be purchased for less than 10 grand. Less than 20 for really nice Flight Quality rubber-bumper C3's. Younger people have trouble affording any car, and for the most part aren't interested in cars anyway. I don't think the issue is "affordability" at all. Younger peeps just aren't interested in cars other than for utility and transportation.

I doubt Gen X and Millenials will be showing up in 250K Restomods because these are more "affordable" than Flight Quality cars. This class is going to go the way every "new" class in NCRS has gone. We saw it with C4, are seeing it with C5, and will see it with this one. Current members will bring out the cars they already own at the inception. But eventually the participation tapers off, as the cars get taken through the system. Very few "new" owners are drawn in. It's been mostly existing members with cars they've owned for a long time.


Maybe the Concours Class will be different as far as attracting and retaining NEW members; of any age.

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Old 01-17-2017, 05:30 AM   #33
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Interesting. Freightliner has had turn-signal DRL's for at least 15 years. They do NOT cancel the opposite side. After the turn signal stops, there is a delay in OFF, then the lamp resumes DRL function.
Because DRL's are NOT a Federal requirement (true. They are not required to be there.) there isn't much about them other than they can't obscure the front turn signals. Absolutely nothing about the other side needs to go off too. Freightliner, Porsche, and scores of others don't. A Restomod Corvette probably doesn't either. I'm thinking that someone had a personal opinion as to how DRL's are supposed to work, not how they need to work.


I'm a Level 300 NCRS judge. I know nothing about the Concours class yet. I'll be in Laughlin, and will check it out. Seems interesting, and enthusiasm like yours will help it to become a success. Thanks for participating.
although this is with the 4-ways flashing, the same principle applies to turnsignals; just picture the non-turnsignal side as solid and not flashing; obviously someone doesn't understand the principle (even common sense applies to this...)...

Bill
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Old 01-17-2017, 02:25 PM   #34
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Mike: It was great to finely meet you in person. My son and I enjoyed speaking with you. Congrats on the cars, they showed very well. I can see in years to come that this new judging class will do well. I can also see that the class will evolve into something like a modern day hot rod. Not just for Corvettes, but for other GM, Chrysler and Ford lines. In the 1930's could anyone foresee how the duce coupe or roadster would evolve into the ultimate street rod? I think this may save our hobby. Just my two cents. Jerry
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:11 PM   #35
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NCRS has always been open to "Gen-X and Millennials".

Younger peeps just aren't interested in cars other than for utility and transportation.
Yes and no. They keep showing up for the Fast and Furious movies, and we are up to movie #8 now.
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Old 01-18-2017, 12:27 AM   #36
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Yes and no. They keep showing up for the Fast and Furious movies, and we are up to movie #8 now.
I have to say I have not run across many young people interested in the car hobby. My nephew is 19 years old. He doesn't seem to be remotely interested in Corvettes or old car hobby. He drivers a 2015 Mustang GT convertible he bought new. He likes the fact it gets pretty good gas mileage, stops, and steers much better than any car made in the 60's. When it needs work he brings it back to the dealership to have it fixed..

My nephew generation want is NOW.. they don't want to strip a Corvette apart clean and paint it to put it back together.

Plus these cars aren't exactly cheap these days.. I hope the Corvette hobby doesn't go away like the Model T ford car shows that were so popular in the 70s. I loved going to these shows when I was kid. My uncle who is 94 years young would take me
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Old 01-18-2017, 09:56 AM   #37
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In my humble opinion (IMHO) - there is a difference between interest in the hobby and active participation among our nation's youth. My teenagers appreciate the artistic designs of the classic cars and have even joined me for the local car & coffee events to see the diversity - from rat rods to the Italian exotics and have enjoyed the trips. The problem is that they have ZERO passion to pursue active participation in terms of buying/restoring or even driving a classic car.

What really puzzles me is - when I briefly discussed selling the 64 Restomod or the 55 Nomad (momentary insanity moments), it was my son who pleaded with me that I should never sell them - go figure.

The kids may end up more interested in Teslas and BMW I8s where technology rules the roost over classic design. Only time will tell but it is clear that kids are not running out to buy C3s/C4s/C5s (the more affordable Corvettes).
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Old 01-18-2017, 11:04 AM   #38
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I read somewhere that 50% of kids don't get their driver's license when they are first eligible nowadays. They'll ogle your C1/C2, post a picture on Facebook, and then go back to tweeting about their latest unrequited love or Old Navy shoe sale.

May as well get over it...
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Old 01-18-2017, 11:11 AM   #39
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[QUOTE=Frankie the Fink;1593892884]I read somewhere that 50% of kids don't get their driver's license when they are first eligible nowadays. [QUOTE]

my daughter didn't, my son did...; I guess that's 50%...

Bill

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Old 01-18-2017, 11:57 AM   #40
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I read somewhere that 50% of kids don't get their driver's license when they are first eligible nowadays. They'll ogle your C1/C2, post a picture on Facebook, and then go back to tweeting about their latest unrequited love or Old Navy shoe sale.

May as well get over it...


In our house though - the kids MUST get their licenses at 16 as it is a life skill - no negotiation about it.
What I have not done though is teach them how to drive a stick yet.....
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