Biggus Blockus

I'm looking at 3 options from the generals crate motor offerings:

1) The HO 454 (425 hp) $4700.00 approx

2) The HO 502 (450 hp) $5400.00 approx

3) The ZZ 502 (502 hp) :eek: $7800.00 approx

My 65 looks very stock, no room to put real big tires on to hook up with, M21 4 speed, 3.55 rear end, no PS. I would like to paint the engine orange & get the correct 396 valve covers (orange also I think) and the black air cleaner to make this bad boy look like a period correct 396/425. Not trying to fool anyone here, but a nice stock look when you open the hood.

I'm leaning towrds the HO 454 for the following: will accept a mechanical fuel pump, it's cheaper, & it has nearly the same HP and torque of the 65 396 motor. It seems to be the most practical choice :sleep:

The 502/502 really gets my blood pumping, but is it too much for my car with the stock suspension, wheels & brakes? I fear I might twist the car up with that much horsepower. I have no intentions of modifying the car, but yet I don't want to do this and end up wishing I got more horsepower.

Any advice out there? Anone done this swap and care to share the results?
Anybody have any experience with the reliability/performance of the GM BB crate motors?

396 RAT

502 / 502
Have you shopped round?
I will check it out.......
Seems to me they were less than that?

Cruzmeisters

I just checked: http://www.paceparts.com and clicked "Crate Engines"; there were all KINDS of variations/prices for the 502/502, some cheaper, some more expensive :confused:
:steering: Cruz :steering:

396 RAT

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm
Part # 12496963

or http://www.highperformanceparts.net/...nes/index.html
Part # Part Name List Price

12496963 ZZ502 Base Kit - Fully Assembled $6,017.50
12371171 502/502 Deluxe Kit $6,767.50

achapman

We have a guy in our club that has a 66 Vert with a new 502/502 and he loves it. The body has not been modified, so he is using 225/70's on the rear. Yeah, traction with those tires is not great, but look at it this way, tires are a lot cheaper to replace than drivetrain parts..... :yesnod: The 502 is roughly the same weight as the 454, however he did put in PS to make life easier, as well as, Vintage Air to make life more bearable. Also, he did the carpets over and installed a complete "heat barrier" under the rugs. He is running under car chambered staintless exhaust, 3 inch I believe he said. Really looks nice in there, however it doesn't look stock...... but it does look and sound HEALTHY :auto: :thumbs:

MassVette

I used the HO 454 in the '67, along with tripower. Works great! all kinds of torque, mild manners, and runs reliably; looks like stock motor.
I used the ZZ/502 in the '79. Idles nasty, goes like HELL, and runs reliably.
Both have their 'merits'.
If you want a great boulevard cruiser (that'll fry the tires off on command!), go with the 454 HO. If you want a highway road-ripper, go with the ZZ/502.
my 2c.
:yesnod: :chevy :chevy :yesnod:
P.S.
The '67 has stock suspension. the '79 is updated. I would strongly recommend updated underpinnings for the 502. Also, Chevrolet recommends a 3" exhaust for the 502. I ignored their warning at first, and was horrified when there was a 95 h.p. loss on the baseline dyno runs! The HO 454 runs through the stock side exhaust, and doesn't seem to mind.

wallyknoch

The Ram Jet 502. Comes with injection, processor and a electric fuel pump. :thumbs:

Biggus Blockus

Thanks MassVette, that was exactly the info I was looking for. I'm going for the stock look, much like what you did (beautifully) with your '67. I leaning to the HO 454 just 'cause I think the 502 will be too much for the stock exhaust, driveline and chassis. I'm looking to get as close as I can to a period correct BB396. Do you remember what parts you bought to get that stock look (no tripower for me)
and what parts I'll need? I can use my current distributor I think, but I'm seeing a need for a new fuel pump, 750 cfm carb, braided plug wires, aluminum radiator, motor mounts. air cleaner (that nasty lookin black one).

Anything else? I'm getting a little exited! :cheers: :D :thumbs:

Hank

In my 66 vert I had the 502/450 and am now upgrading to brodix heads, bigger cam / intake, headers etc. to get up above 600hp. I loved the torque of the 502 in stock trim but it didn't pull hard above 5000 rpm.

If you go with the iron head 502, my advice is to buy the short block and put on closed chamber heads -- you'll get up around 9.7:1 compression that way. With the open chamber heads the engine is down around 8.7:1. Saves money too.

Gerry

PS -- I have rectangular port, closed chamber heads I took off the engine, they worked great but I wanted ported Brodix aluminum heads and so went that way.

Dr.T

I put a 502/502 in a 69 chevelle. I also upgraded everything including brakes, wheels,tires,etc. Yes it makes a 427 feel like a small block with an extra 100 hp and 150lb.ft torque but I think you will find the 454 more than enough without doing expensive upgrades, If I was doing it again I would have settled for the 454.

Dr.T

One more word of advice don"t trust the engine right out of the crate. take it to a reliable engine shop for dismantling reassembly and then break-in .It should ideally be dynoed as well. Total cost will be around $1500 and is well worth it .Crate motors are notorious for sloppy assembly.

427Hotrod

For the kind of money you're talking, I think you can do a little better. I would look into buying a nice shortblock based on a Merlin or Dart block. Much better pieces and they use stock fuel pumps. No reason you couldn't assemble a 509 or 540 for the same or less $$.

Second choice is to buy a 502 shortblock, but it will require the fuel pump you mentioned, a different oil pan, a bracket for clutch linkage and a few other little details.

Third choice is a 454 HO shortblock with different heads. Unless you use a serious cam and exhaust, the big heads are wasted on the 454 size motor. And with the low compression it is just compounded.

I'd get a shortblock from someone and install a better flat tappet cam or mild street roller if you feel a little richer. Then I would buy a set of CNC AFR or Dart CNC heads and bolt them on. You could use a stock looking 427/425 intake, or an Edelbrock C-427 intake that looks very similar to a stock one yet is larger to feed the extra cubes.

You can never have too much HP!! The bigger you build it, the milder the rest of the parts can be and still make great power. Then later, if you need more, it just takes more cam to do it...you already have the cubes....you just have to decide how much to feed them.

JIM

MassVette

The biggest deal are the pulleys. I used the harmonic balancer pulley from a '69 BB vette, and the rest from the '67 BB. Also, I used a Mallory Unilite tach-drive distributor (buried under stock shielding).
P.S.
427 Hotrod is probably right- if i had it to do again, it would most likely be a Merlin (same as MK IV- everything fits). But then again, you need to do chassis and driveline upgrades with that package....
:crazy: :lol: :lol: :crazy:

427390

I recently finished a 502/502 install in a 67 Coupe - almost all is done now - There are some issues to deal with as you point out including the install of an electric fuel pump, pressure regulator and guage, the need for a clutch cross shaft bracket (bolts to bellhousing), re-locating the oil pressure line to the top of the engint (it should be where the new clutch cross shaft bracket winds up), won't take the clutch cover (on bellhousing, but no big deal - lots of people run without them even on stock cars), new flywheel, 11" clutch, the smaller oil pan must be swapped for the 6 qt., etc. Also, I have the stock BB exhaust manifolds and sidepipes and am certain these are choking off power.

All the BB pulleys, brackets, etc. bolt right up. My first plan was very similar to yours - buy the 454 HO, dress it like my original 427/390 and have fun....the big problem here is that no GMPP dealer in the country has ANY 454HOs or 502HOs in stock - I was told various stories such as there was a head casting issue, etc. - I called over 20 dealers and searched all over the Internet. Finally bought the 502/502 from gmpartsdirect.com because spring was here and all my brackets. pulleys, etc. were detailed and I was getting itchy.

One little final, but PIA, detail that I am hoping to deal with this weekend is that the aluminum water pump on the 502 seems to weap a little coolant, though I am not entirely sure if its the pump or if I had the system slightly overfilled and its coming out of the weep hole - I am really not looking forward to taking the fan, pulley, hoses, etc. off to do this (and then start dealing with GMPP warranty BS)

Let me know if you have any questions - I've just been through this.

Finally, the thing does have a rumpy idle, but what would you expect from 502ci. and 502 HP??

MassVette

QUOTE]I recently finished a 502/502 install in a 67 Coupe - almost all is done now - There are some issues to deal with as you point out including the install of an electric fuel pump, pressure regulator and guage, the need for a clutch cross shaft bracket (bolts to bellhousing), re-locating the oil pressure line to the top of the engint (it should be where the new clutch cross shaft bracket winds up), won't take the clutch cover (on bellhousing, but no big deal - lots of people run without them even on stock cars), new flywheel, 11" clutch, the smaller oil pan must be swapped for the 6 qt., etc. Also, I have the stock BB exhaust manifolds and sidepipes and am certain these are choking off power.

All the BB pulleys, brackets, etc. bolt right up. My first plan was very similar to yours - buy the 454 HO, dress it like my original 427/390 and have fun....the big problem here is that no GMPP dealer in the country has ANY 454HOs or 502HOs in stock - I was told various stories such as there was a head casting issue, etc. - I called over 20 dealers and searched all over the Internet. Finally bought the 502/502 from gmpartsdirect.com because spring was here and all my brackets. pulleys, etc. were detailed and I was getting itchy.

One little final, but PIA, detail that I am hoping to deal with this weekend is that the aluminum water pump on the 502 seems to weap a little coolant, though I am not entirely sure if its the pump or if I had the system slightly overfilled and its coming out of the weep hole - I am really not looking forward to taking the fan, pulley, hoses, etc. off to do this (and then start dealing with GMPP warranty BS)

Let me know if you have any questions - I've just been through this.

Finally, the thing does have a rumpy idle, but what would you expect from 502ci. and 502 HP??[/QUOTE]

My 502/502 did the same weeping with the water pump!
I installed an Edelbrock reverse hi-flow w/p along with a Street and Performance serpentine setup- mostly because I couldn't get the stock pulley setup right.
If memory serves me right, there is a change in the GM 454 HO crate motor; namely that it was supposed to have aluminum heads now.
:yesnod: :yesnod:
Gotta love those Big Blocks!
:smash: :chevy :chevy :yesnod:

66427-450

well.....

i was right where you are, and i decided to build my own replacement engine, and i made it EXACTLY the way i wanted it. i was going to go with the 502/502 long block, but i would have had to: change cam, all the valve gear, compression (to low), etc...then no clutch hole, no stock type fuel pump, etc. also, i wasn't to thrilled about the current GM 502 rods for hi rpm use....... and added to that, i would have been stuck with GM "production line" engine tolerances (deck, bearings, piston/wall, etc).

my advice? if you're serious about a HP engine, build one, or have someone build one, to HP spec's, you'll be $ ahead..... the GM crate motors aren't really setup for SHP (6500 rpm red line) use, and most perf oriented guys end up re-doing the things anyway. now, if a guy is into low rpm crusing (and that's cool) maybe the 454/425?..... it'd be a smooth torquer motor, but then you'd want it to look/sound/act like a SHP 396 right? (see my point ?)

:seeya

66427-450

oh, by the way....... i have a new in the box holley repo 396 carb (with the choke can, correct hookups, etc...... it would look very correct on your 65).

it's has the 396/375 chevelle #'s on it, but like i said, same cfm and hookup as the vette carb.

drop me an e-mail if you're interested, the price will be right.......

Biggus Blockus

:lurk:

396 RAT

Not trying to undercut anyone, but I may be intrested in a spare 396 carb.
Is it a 3124 ? My orig is a R3124A 3868826 S 14. Again, if someone needs it,
don't want to get into te way. But a spare would be nice! Its a 780 cfm as I recall.
Thanks!

Denney

I have the 454HO in my 66 vert (to replace the original 427/425) and am very happy with it. Bottom line is that I could never get enough tire under the rear to get the torque to the ground (the 454HO is rated at 500 lb-ft) without modifying the rear fenders. So for economical and driveability I would recommend the 454HO. But that is just my 2 cents... :cheers: