Noland Adams
11-09-2003, 07:54 PM
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Noland Adams
I recently e-mailed Noland Adams about a question I had and thought it might be of interest to some of you.
Noland, I know this is not a question about a solid axle car but I was told your book had some pictures of c2 corvettes with vin# and engine date codes that were not in sequence. I have a 1965 with a vin# 19467S120992 which is a June 28 build date but my pad #FO712H(O,C,Q) the last letter is very hard to see. Bell housing 3782870,and G85. Exhaust manifold 3846559 intake 3844457 with a C94 cast date. Powerglide pan # T7T08N. The whole powertrain is a July 8 and 12 build date. Anyway I know your a busy guy so my question is have you run into a dilemma like this before. Thanks for any reply.
Roland,
Engines for 1965 Corvettes were assembled in two plants. The 327 cid engines were assembled in Flint Motor in Flint, Michigan (prefix code F). 396 cid engines were assembled in Tonawanda, New York (prefix T) Since your engine number begins with F (F0712), we know it was a 327 cid engine assembled in Flint.
GM's engine assembly plants built 100 to 300 Corvette engines per work day: enough to keep ahead of the demand at the Corvette assembly plant in St. Louis. All of the engines built on any certain day would have the same date code in their engine number. For example, all 1965 Corvette engines assembled in Flint on July 4th would have the engine number F0704XX, the XX being the engine number suffix. (This is only an example, because July 4th is a national holiday, and the plant would not be in operation.)
While the engine assembly plants are producing engines coded with their assembly date, the Corvette plant in St. Louis is building Corvettes in sequence with an individual serial number. An engine built July 4th would probably arrive in St Louis about July 10th or 11th, and get installed in a new Corvette within a few days. Although the new engines were built using their assembly date as a reference, the dates were not kept in sequence after they left the engine assembly plant.
Perhaps it will be useful to examine the production and shipping procedures in use by GM back in the sixties. As the completed engines came off of the assembly line, they were installed on a special shipping pallet which held six (6) engines. The engines produced on day one of our example are stacked in the shipping area. Soon they are joined by engines assembled day two, three, and maybe four. Next, a railcar is moved to the siding beside the engine plant. As the pallets of engines are loaded into the rail car, their assembly dates become mixed (out of sequence).
When the engines arrived in St. Louis, they were moved to the receiving storage area. However, perhaps there was an immediate need for L75 engines. Instead of moving the pallet of new L75 engines to the storage area, they might be moved directly to the assembly line. Let's suppose that they were from day three of our example. The next fork lift driver selects a pallet of engines that were built the previous week. The engine's assembly date codes have been mixed, and Corvettes built the next work day might get engines with several different assembly date codes.
That explains how Corvettes with close serial numbers have engines that vary in their assembly dates. However, that is not the case with your engine. The block's casting number of 3782870 is correct for 1965. However, the block was cast G85 (July 8, 1965) and assembled 0712 (July 12th). Since your car was built on June 28, this could not have been the original engine in your Corvette.
The intake manifold (casting number 3844457) is correct for a 1965 250 hp Corvette with air conditioning and a Powerglide transmission. However, it was cast C94, which translates to March 9, 1964, 15 months before your Corvette was built. Having such an old casting date on an intake manifold for a new engine is possible, but highly unlikely. It should be noted that 1964 Corvette 250 hp engines used this same intake manifold's casting number.
You noted that the suffix on your engine number was H(0,C, or Q) It would have been HQ on your engine. It appears that your original engine suffered a fatal failure shortly after the Corvette was delivered. The engine was replaced under warranty, and the dealer ordered a replacement engine. It came with the partial engine number F0712, and the dealer stamped the HQ suffix or maybe just the "Q" portion on it. This was a somewhat standard practice at the time, although not every Chevrolet dealer adhered to the same procedure.
Also, the power train must have been replaced at some time. You stated that it was dated between July 8 and July 12. This would be impossible in a Corvette that left the assembly building on June 28th. There are definitely some unexplained issues here.
I do hope that this helps a little.
Cheers, Noland Adams
Noland, I know this is not a question about a solid axle car but I was told your book had some pictures of c2 corvettes with vin# and engine date codes that were not in sequence. I have a 1965 with a vin# 19467S120992 which is a June 28 build date but my pad #FO712H(O,C,Q) the last letter is very hard to see. Bell housing 3782870,and G85. Exhaust manifold 3846559 intake 3844457 with a C94 cast date. Powerglide pan # T7T08N. The whole powertrain is a July 8 and 12 build date. Anyway I know your a busy guy so my question is have you run into a dilemma like this before. Thanks for any reply.
Roland,
Engines for 1965 Corvettes were assembled in two plants. The 327 cid engines were assembled in Flint Motor in Flint, Michigan (prefix code F). 396 cid engines were assembled in Tonawanda, New York (prefix T) Since your engine number begins with F (F0712), we know it was a 327 cid engine assembled in Flint.
GM's engine assembly plants built 100 to 300 Corvette engines per work day: enough to keep ahead of the demand at the Corvette assembly plant in St. Louis. All of the engines built on any certain day would have the same date code in their engine number. For example, all 1965 Corvette engines assembled in Flint on July 4th would have the engine number F0704XX, the XX being the engine number suffix. (This is only an example, because July 4th is a national holiday, and the plant would not be in operation.)
While the engine assembly plants are producing engines coded with their assembly date, the Corvette plant in St. Louis is building Corvettes in sequence with an individual serial number. An engine built July 4th would probably arrive in St Louis about July 10th or 11th, and get installed in a new Corvette within a few days. Although the new engines were built using their assembly date as a reference, the dates were not kept in sequence after they left the engine assembly plant.
Perhaps it will be useful to examine the production and shipping procedures in use by GM back in the sixties. As the completed engines came off of the assembly line, they were installed on a special shipping pallet which held six (6) engines. The engines produced on day one of our example are stacked in the shipping area. Soon they are joined by engines assembled day two, three, and maybe four. Next, a railcar is moved to the siding beside the engine plant. As the pallets of engines are loaded into the rail car, their assembly dates become mixed (out of sequence).
When the engines arrived in St. Louis, they were moved to the receiving storage area. However, perhaps there was an immediate need for L75 engines. Instead of moving the pallet of new L75 engines to the storage area, they might be moved directly to the assembly line. Let's suppose that they were from day three of our example. The next fork lift driver selects a pallet of engines that were built the previous week. The engine's assembly date codes have been mixed, and Corvettes built the next work day might get engines with several different assembly date codes.
That explains how Corvettes with close serial numbers have engines that vary in their assembly dates. However, that is not the case with your engine. The block's casting number of 3782870 is correct for 1965. However, the block was cast G85 (July 8, 1965) and assembled 0712 (July 12th). Since your car was built on June 28, this could not have been the original engine in your Corvette.
The intake manifold (casting number 3844457) is correct for a 1965 250 hp Corvette with air conditioning and a Powerglide transmission. However, it was cast C94, which translates to March 9, 1964, 15 months before your Corvette was built. Having such an old casting date on an intake manifold for a new engine is possible, but highly unlikely. It should be noted that 1964 Corvette 250 hp engines used this same intake manifold's casting number.
You noted that the suffix on your engine number was H(0,C, or Q) It would have been HQ on your engine. It appears that your original engine suffered a fatal failure shortly after the Corvette was delivered. The engine was replaced under warranty, and the dealer ordered a replacement engine. It came with the partial engine number F0712, and the dealer stamped the HQ suffix or maybe just the "Q" portion on it. This was a somewhat standard practice at the time, although not every Chevrolet dealer adhered to the same procedure.
Also, the power train must have been replaced at some time. You stated that it was dated between July 8 and July 12. This would be impossible in a Corvette that left the assembly building on June 28th. There are definitely some unexplained issues here.
I do hope that this helps a little.
Cheers, Noland Adams
11-10-2003, 04:19 PM
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Le Mans Master
Re: Noland Adams (ro.co3)
nice to see that our collective thoughts were not all that different from what Noland A had to say, but of course he put some real sweet "you are right there" flavoring in there! Hope you have found some peace on this issue.
11-10-2003, 06:55 PM
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Re: Noland Adams (ctjackster)
When I had brought this subjct up quite awhile ago I got some great awnswers to my questions. I had also had some feedback that in Nolands book he had some mid years with numbers that were out of sequence. So I wrote to furthere my own education. I found his awnswer really in depth and informative and thought some of you might be interested in reading it. If I kicked a dead horse, excuse me.
