Good definition of "NOM"
11-30-2004, 06:04 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Good definition of "NOM"
Would some one please provide me with a good definition of NOM? I understand the basic definition that the engine is not the original and most certainly not numbers matching. Is NOM meant to define a car that has a different engine that is not even the type intended for the car? When a salesman is selling a car and he tells you it is a 427 (but it is NOM) should he advise you if the engine is not even a 427?
Thanks,
Roy Brotherhood
Thanks,
Roy Brotherhood
11-30-2004, 06:22 PM
#2
NOM in my world simply means the current engine is not the original. The engine could be an identically configured date-correct engine to the original, or it could be a brand-new hybrid gas-electric from Hondaiyota. Either way it's not the original and never will be.
If a salesman advertises the car as a 427, and the engine is not in fact a 427ci engine, then he's lying. He may not be intending to lie, but he's still not telling the truth. Now, he may simply not be able to distinguish, as the seller of my '58 did when he called the engine a 350; he couldn't tell without pulling the engine apart that it was really a 327. But if the engine is really a small-block, and he's calling it a 427 big-block, he's either ignorant or slimy.
Cheers,
-Brian
If a salesman advertises the car as a 427, and the engine is not in fact a 427ci engine, then he's lying. He may not be intending to lie, but he's still not telling the truth. Now, he may simply not be able to distinguish, as the seller of my '58 did when he called the engine a 350; he couldn't tell without pulling the engine apart that it was really a 327. But if the engine is really a small-block, and he's calling it a 427 big-block, he's either ignorant or slimy.
Cheers,
-Brian
11-30-2004, 06:23 PM
#3
Team Owner
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all that means is it is not the motor that came with the car from the factory. that means the orginal motor was damaged, or just taken out for something beter or to be replaced. it happend to altot of cars in the 70's, and 80's when thoes cars were drivers.
12-01-2004, 08:34 AM
#5
Le Mans Master
and note the sub-category of engine included within the NOM appellation: "Restoration Motor" - denoting a NOM that has been configured to appear as the original engine, and usually restamped with what would have appeared on the original engine's stamp pad.
I have come to appreciate sellers who have what might otherwise appear to be the original motor, but who honestly describe it as a "restoration motor" - they are basically being honest about a restamped engine, although being shy about using that term.
I have come to appreciate sellers who have what might otherwise appear to be the original motor, but who honestly describe it as a "restoration motor" - they are basically being honest about a restamped engine, although being shy about using that term.
12-01-2004, 08:38 AM
#6
Melting Slicks
unfortunately, MOST of the big blocks out there are sold as being/having ORIGINAL MOTORS, when we can almost certainly consider them RESTAMPS!
FYI - this is really a SORE subject with me and the NCRS
FYI - this is really a SORE subject with me and the NCRS
12-01-2004, 11:36 AM
#7
Le Mans Master
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NCRS allows restamps as restoration pieces (just like seat covers). It only has to appear as when the car was delivered (just like carpets, or paint, or tops, or brakes..........).
12-01-2004, 09:00 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
don't have a problem with NCRS "allowing" restamps, what I have a problem with is the many members of the NCRS that will not FESS UP that the engines in some of the BB's are NOT ORIGINAL MOTORS - they keep selling/reselling cars underhandedly
FYI - my 1963 Z06, has a NOM, and I CHOSE not to restamp because everything else BUT the VIN is correct for my LADY
FYI - my 1963 Z06, has a NOM, and I CHOSE not to restamp because everything else BUT the VIN is correct for my LADY
12-02-2004, 09:27 AM
#9
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They won't fess up for another reason - if they do, the NCRS judge will take away points.
NCRS is a club with rules. Play by the rules and don't worry about people who use the club to increase the value of their cars for resale purposes.
When buying a used car, you get a used car. NCRS judging awards do not certify a vehicle as original. If you buy a used car and you have the money to spend for an old car that has an original engine and few miles, expect to pay more for one with documentation that verifies the originality.
NCRS is a club with rules. Play by the rules and don't worry about people who use the club to increase the value of their cars for resale purposes.
When buying a used car, you get a used car. NCRS judging awards do not certify a vehicle as original. If you buy a used car and you have the money to spend for an old car that has an original engine and few miles, expect to pay more for one with documentation that verifies the originality.
12-02-2004, 01:34 PM
#10
Dealers don't use the term NOM for restamped engines. What they say is it is numbers matching. When a dealer says it is NOM it is because the date code and sufix is wrong, or the engine is totally different then what came in the car.
Randy
Randy
12-02-2004, 09:36 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
Randy,
therein lies the major problem that I ahve - NOT ORIGINAL MOTOR, means that it is not the motor that came with the car when it left the factory - so, a restamp is a NOM and when a car is sold by anyone that is how it should be sold - unfortunatley, most folks are out for the $$$$$ and it just keeps escalating - can you say FRAUD!
therein lies the major problem that I ahve - NOT ORIGINAL MOTOR, means that it is not the motor that came with the car when it left the factory - so, a restamp is a NOM and when a car is sold by anyone that is how it should be sold - unfortunatley, most folks are out for the $$$$$ and it just keeps escalating - can you say FRAUD!
12-03-2004, 08:51 AM
#12
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I disagree.
Restoration is restoration. By your definition repainting the body, replacing the radiator, or replacing the seats is fraud.
If someone sells a car as restored, and maintains that the radiator, seats, or engine is original, that is fraudulent if any have been replaced.
If they display the car as restored, or sell it as such, and make no claim as to the originality of the parts, that's a used car.
Caveat emptor applies to used cars. Having said that, you should know I have owned my c2 for 17 years and do not intend to sell it. I have no vested interest in my opinion.
PS Somewhere along the trail, people got the idea that swapping engines during restoration is a sin. The carb and the trans in a c2 should also carry the vin. I don't see car enthusiasts complaining about having restamped carbs on their engines. IMO the big deal with the engine is in the mind of people who have cars with documented original engines and want exclusivity, or people who buy these cars undocumented (and a lot cheaper) and find out they have more money than brains (if they think they are getting a steal on an original car). People who show or drive them shouldn't have a care. I don't.
The moral dilemma faced by sellers who do not want to disclose what parts they know have been replaced is easily solved by web/consignment sales. Those who choose to lie may also be breaking the law if they are selling, but keeping silent is only a sin of omission.
Restoration is restoration. By your definition repainting the body, replacing the radiator, or replacing the seats is fraud.
If someone sells a car as restored, and maintains that the radiator, seats, or engine is original, that is fraudulent if any have been replaced.
If they display the car as restored, or sell it as such, and make no claim as to the originality of the parts, that's a used car.
Caveat emptor applies to used cars. Having said that, you should know I have owned my c2 for 17 years and do not intend to sell it. I have no vested interest in my opinion.
PS Somewhere along the trail, people got the idea that swapping engines during restoration is a sin. The carb and the trans in a c2 should also carry the vin. I don't see car enthusiasts complaining about having restamped carbs on their engines. IMO the big deal with the engine is in the mind of people who have cars with documented original engines and want exclusivity, or people who buy these cars undocumented (and a lot cheaper) and find out they have more money than brains (if they think they are getting a steal on an original car). People who show or drive them shouldn't have a care. I don't.
The moral dilemma faced by sellers who do not want to disclose what parts they know have been replaced is easily solved by web/consignment sales. Those who choose to lie may also be breaking the law if they are selling, but keeping silent is only a sin of omission.
Last edited by magicv8; 12-03-2004 at 09:11 AM.
12-03-2004, 09:27 AM
#13
Melting Slicks
you are missing my entire point - restoration of anything is just that AS LONG AS PEOPLE admit that it is a restoration engine and not try to FRAUDALENTLY sell someone a car with said restoration engine as being the ORIGINAL. Why do you think there are MORE BIG BLOCK engines than were ever produced!? Because people have restamped, etc. and have RESOLD as being original. That is what I call FRAUD.
12-03-2004, 12:26 PM
#14
From the dealers standpoint they don't spend any time investigating a car. I in fact they will not ask the owner very many questions when buying a car. That way they can't be accused of fraud. If they glance at the numbers on an engine and the numbers match, then the investigation is over, it's numbers matching. When I traded in my 65 (big mistake) they did not ask any questions about the car. At the time I thought it was strange, but then it came to me why. The dealer will not put there self in a situation to lie, if they can help it.
Randy
Randy
12-03-2004, 02:15 PM
#15
Melting Slicks
Randy,
so true in what you say - again, my concern is that ONE of the primary reasons that "our hobby" (old cars, restoration, etc.,) keeps getting blown out of the water where no one can afford to buy them is this ENTIRE question of ORIGINAL.
A car is ORIGINAL only once and that is when it is sitting on the showroom floor. As soon as you drive it off the showroom it is no longer original - it has miles on it (tires, etc.) - so it is no longer original, which I think everyone will agree with.
We tear the car apart and replace worn parts, and basically "restore" parts to an "original-like" - notice what I said. IT is NOT original. No way, shape, manner, don't care how you slice and dice - NOT ORIGINAL.
A Not Original Motor (NOM) means just that - it is NOT the original motor that came with the car when it left the show room. It means that it could have been replaced under warranty for whatever reason, or it was just replaced because of whatever reason. Again, NOT ORIGINAL. This is where a RESTAMP falls also.
And, for anyone to be selling a car like this as ORIGINAL, MATCHING NUMBERS (my $.02 centavos) is committing FRAUD.
so true in what you say - again, my concern is that ONE of the primary reasons that "our hobby" (old cars, restoration, etc.,) keeps getting blown out of the water where no one can afford to buy them is this ENTIRE question of ORIGINAL.
A car is ORIGINAL only once and that is when it is sitting on the showroom floor. As soon as you drive it off the showroom it is no longer original - it has miles on it (tires, etc.) - so it is no longer original, which I think everyone will agree with.
We tear the car apart and replace worn parts, and basically "restore" parts to an "original-like" - notice what I said. IT is NOT original. No way, shape, manner, don't care how you slice and dice - NOT ORIGINAL.
A Not Original Motor (NOM) means just that - it is NOT the original motor that came with the car when it left the show room. It means that it could have been replaced under warranty for whatever reason, or it was just replaced because of whatever reason. Again, NOT ORIGINAL. This is where a RESTAMP falls also.
And, for anyone to be selling a car like this as ORIGINAL, MATCHING NUMBERS (my $.02 centavos) is committing FRAUD.
12-03-2004, 02:55 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
I think the real problem lies in the fact that many of these cars are sold and resold every few years, and innocent or not-very-well-informed buyers who buy a car that is represented as "numbers matching" from the seller who perhaps innocently restamped the block ("hey, the guy didn't ask me if it was the ORIGINAL engine - and hell yeah, those numbers sure do match!") later become innocent resellers, and another restamped Corvette gets sold as "numbers matching" by a seller who certainly didn't restamp it himself and has no reason to believe otherwise, because he didn't look at the block casting date and compare it to the engine assembly date, or he didn't look at the block casting number and confirm it was appropriate, etc. etc.
Even if the restamp was done by an NCRS-er as part of "that Top Flight Game" (no offense to NCRS-ers, I am one too and we are all free to compete in little games as we see fit) that "game" throws off restamped engines that make it to the outside marketplace and get ascribed a huge (~30% of car's value) mark-up in value if treated as an original engine.
First-hand experience - I bought my 65 from a dentist in Baton Rouge, nice guy and former member of this forum, who really just dipped his toe into the C2 world for less than two years - he was selling it as numbers matching because he was told it was when he bought it from a significant Corvette sales shop in AZ - he had never even looked at the engine pad, didn't know where it was (how do I know he wasn't feigning ignorance? Let's just say I sat on here and watched him ask for help locating these "numbers" the prospective buyer [me] was asking for). Turns out the engine and tranny are absolutely original to the car, the cast date, engine assembly date, body build date from the trim tag, and birthday all sequence nicely, but before I forced him to get educated on his last day of ownership, he might have had ANYTHING in the engine compartment - possibly not even bearing the VIN, restamped or otherwise. (No offense John if you are reading this, I do not expect everybody in this hobby to be getting his hands dirty conducting all kinds of engine history investigations like I do). And that's the point.
Even if the restamp was done by an NCRS-er as part of "that Top Flight Game" (no offense to NCRS-ers, I am one too and we are all free to compete in little games as we see fit) that "game" throws off restamped engines that make it to the outside marketplace and get ascribed a huge (~30% of car's value) mark-up in value if treated as an original engine.
First-hand experience - I bought my 65 from a dentist in Baton Rouge, nice guy and former member of this forum, who really just dipped his toe into the C2 world for less than two years - he was selling it as numbers matching because he was told it was when he bought it from a significant Corvette sales shop in AZ - he had never even looked at the engine pad, didn't know where it was (how do I know he wasn't feigning ignorance? Let's just say I sat on here and watched him ask for help locating these "numbers" the prospective buyer [me] was asking for). Turns out the engine and tranny are absolutely original to the car, the cast date, engine assembly date, body build date from the trim tag, and birthday all sequence nicely, but before I forced him to get educated on his last day of ownership, he might have had ANYTHING in the engine compartment - possibly not even bearing the VIN, restamped or otherwise. (No offense John if you are reading this, I do not expect everybody in this hobby to be getting his hands dirty conducting all kinds of engine history investigations like I do). And that's the point.
12-03-2004, 05:04 PM
#18
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St. Jude Donor '05
Rick,
And the good news is..after a visit to Tony, my BB is original motor. The car has other issues, however, and I'm going to be seeing Tony more often. My first repair appointment is Jan 29th.
What a great shop and Tony is an unbelievably gracious guy. I got the whole tour and I've never seen any operation like his. We even spoke about your decision not to restamp. I admire your integrity and I got the definite impression he did, also.
Hope to see you at NCRS, that other club lost a prospective member with their bogus treatment.
Dennis
And the good news is..after a visit to Tony, my BB is original motor. The car has other issues, however, and I'm going to be seeing Tony more often. My first repair appointment is Jan 29th.
What a great shop and Tony is an unbelievably gracious guy. I got the whole tour and I've never seen any operation like his. We even spoke about your decision not to restamp. I admire your integrity and I got the definite impression he did, also.
Hope to see you at NCRS, that other club lost a prospective member with their bogus treatment.
Dennis
12-03-2004, 05:54 PM
#19
Pro
On this same thread note, has anyone else noticed that the incentive for claiming a vehicle (specifically, 60s muclecars) to be 'original' is starting to fall by the wayside, as vehicles being sold up front as clones are starting to rake in the big bucks, almost as much as some of the originals they are replicating?
I know that auctions such as Barrett-Jackson are not necessarily reflective of the real world (although it seems as if all of us in the hobby feel the repercussions), but I can't help but notice the trend towards clones - and that the selling price of these clones are also going stratospheric!
I know that auctions such as Barrett-Jackson are not necessarily reflective of the real world (although it seems as if all of us in the hobby feel the repercussions), but I can't help but notice the trend towards clones - and that the selling price of these clones are also going stratospheric!
