200-4R Trans swap
09-20-2010, 06:59 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
200-4R Trans swap
My experience thus far with converting a 1979 Corvette THM350 to a THM 200-4R transmission. Granted, this is probably not your typical experience with a transmission shop, but it could happen to someone else.
I met and spoke with the owner of Central Converter about my plans to change the transmission in a project car I own to a Turbohydramatic 200-4R for the added advantage of the overdrive gear to increase gas mileage. At this time, the owner enthusiastically told me he could supply and set up a transmission for me. He tried to dissuade me from the use of a TH 200-4R to the Turbohydramatic 700R4; however, I stated that research indicated my choice was a virtual bolt-in swap with the gear ratios I was seeking and, in contradiction to shop owner argument that I would need to change the yoke on my driveshaft, I also told him my research indicated the yoke was the same one (size and spline teeth count) used on my car, thus not needed. I also said that I had read the 700R4 would need to have additional work done to the car to fit properly. I was given a verbal estimate of ~ $350.00 and indicated to him my desire to purchase.
Before work commenced, I went to Central Converter with a computer printout from the internet DRW transmission site that outlined their procedures to prepare the TH 200-4R transmission for increased load and longevity. At this time, I requested installation of the ‘Trans Go’ (brand name) shift kit with the rebuild. Also left my home phone number with instructions to call should the need arise.
After making appointments with shop owner, he was only there about half the time he said he would be at his shop. At no time did he call to say he would not be there when we had had agreed to meet.
Transmission was not ready at stated time, necessitating more trips to shop unnecessarily, and absent phone calls to inform me of progress.
When transmission was finally ready, I was told the price was now $950.00. I paid cash. I asked if the ‘Trans Go’ shift kit was installed and was told a B&M shift kit was used and that:”all those shift kits are the same”.
I was given a talk about how the owner had gone to the trouble of supplying the yoke for the driveshaft, but when I attempted to again explain how I did not believe in the need for the yoke, I was told to “take it just in case”. The transmission did not need the yoke supplied by Central Converter.
The transmission was given to me with a dirty housing; the outside had not been cleaned of year’s worth of dirt and grease accumulation. The owner explained that “most places just paint over the dirt to make it look clean”.
I was told the transmission came out of a V8 powered car, thus making it sound like it was up to the task of powering my car with no problem. Upon inquiry, I was also told it would safely handle up to 400 horsepower, well above the amount my car produces. When I asked about a warranty, I was told the transmission was warranted: “for as long as I owned the car”.
Before installing the transmission, I discovered that the dipstick tube supplied with the transmission was for a Buick, not for a Chevrolet as the transmission shop knew I was building with and as I was expecting. When I went back to Central Converter and told the owner that he supplied the wrong dipstick tube, he tried to charge me for a correct one, which I declined, believing I had already paid for a correct tube, and subsequently found the correct one on my own. Then, while attempting to fit the newly acquired dipstick tube to the transmission housing, the rubber seal or sleeve that the dipstick tube goes into that has the job of preventing transmission fluid from leaking past, came out with the dipstick tube, which is usually no big deal, as it is a push fit in its proper place. What caught my eye and raised red flags was the fact that the outside of the rubber sleeve had dirt stuck to it, which indicated to me that the sleeve had been pushed into place with dirt around the hole it goes into, which translates into dirt being pushed into the transmission when it was installed.
While installing the transmission, I had to drop the fluid pan to remove the large throttle valve spring and put in the one required by a professional Transmission dealer that supplied the correct carburetor linkage . At this time, I noticed the fluid pan had pinholes through the cover which would have drained all fluid had I filled the transmission. I returned the fluid pan to Central Converter with my findings and was told the pan would be replaced. The pan I retrieved a week later from Central Converter was coated inside with paint primer and other gunk which necessitated a thorough cleaning on my part before installation.
I returned to Central Converter and asked for a written warranty. I was rebuffed with an attitude that made me feel as if I was bothering the owner. However, he agreed to do the write up and asked me to return another day for the warranty. When I arrived at the agreed upon time for the warranty, the owner asked me to wait while he retrieved a written invoice and which contained a very vague listing of items used and no prices for the items listed, no name of the shop anywhere on the paper, no phone number, etc. When the owner noticed my scrutiny of his invoice, and before I could question the now written warranty of only 12 months, he quickly said the transmission had “a standard warranty of 12 months” in contradiction to his before stated verbal warranty when he took money without a written guarantee. I had him hand write the name of the shop on the invoice. I had also asked for a wiring diagram so that I could connect the 3-wire lock-up converter feature on the transmission. I was told a wiring diagram would be supplied but as of yet have not received, so I went on the internet for the missing information.
After installing the transmission and scouring the internet for missing information concerning the correct way to go about setting up the controlling features of the THM200-4R transmission, I located and purchased necessary control hardware and completed installation. I then began a series of start-up tests designed to determine if the transmission is ready for road testing. A company on the west coast offers a consulting and diagnostic service in which I can call in my test results (utilizing a special pressure gauge hook-up to the transmission) and recommendations made on the results. I was informed that my pressure gauge readings were “on the low side, but sufficient enough to continue on to road testing”.
Road testing consists of running easily through the gears a number of times to warm up the transmission and fluid. The first test is to check the transmission’s ability to downshift from 2nd to 1st gear from as low a speed as possible after the transmission has shifted into second. The transmission seemed to have trouble shifting into 2nd gear, as I had to let off the accelerator before it would shift. The test states to ‘aggressively accelerate’ to force the transmission to downshift. The transmission supplied by Central Converter failed this first test. The engine revved, but the transmission did not engage any gear at all, seeming to jump into a neutral so I let off the gas before the engine over-revved. Once back to an idle, it felt as though the transmission was again engaged in gear and I carefully drove home. I parked the car, disgusted. When I went to move the car inside the garage two days later, I noticed a large puddle of automatic transmission fluid under the car. I moved the car inside and again, a couple days later noticed a spreading puddle of transmission fluid on the floor of the garage.
Subsequent research on my part shows the transmission supplied by Central Converter is not as touted. The factory code tag on the tail shaft of the transmission indicates the transmission originally was supplied in low-powered Buick V-6 cars from the early 1980s.
I met and spoke with the owner of Central Converter about my plans to change the transmission in a project car I own to a Turbohydramatic 200-4R for the added advantage of the overdrive gear to increase gas mileage. At this time, the owner enthusiastically told me he could supply and set up a transmission for me. He tried to dissuade me from the use of a TH 200-4R to the Turbohydramatic 700R4; however, I stated that research indicated my choice was a virtual bolt-in swap with the gear ratios I was seeking and, in contradiction to shop owner argument that I would need to change the yoke on my driveshaft, I also told him my research indicated the yoke was the same one (size and spline teeth count) used on my car, thus not needed. I also said that I had read the 700R4 would need to have additional work done to the car to fit properly. I was given a verbal estimate of ~ $350.00 and indicated to him my desire to purchase.
Before work commenced, I went to Central Converter with a computer printout from the internet DRW transmission site that outlined their procedures to prepare the TH 200-4R transmission for increased load and longevity. At this time, I requested installation of the ‘Trans Go’ (brand name) shift kit with the rebuild. Also left my home phone number with instructions to call should the need arise.
After making appointments with shop owner, he was only there about half the time he said he would be at his shop. At no time did he call to say he would not be there when we had had agreed to meet.
Transmission was not ready at stated time, necessitating more trips to shop unnecessarily, and absent phone calls to inform me of progress.
When transmission was finally ready, I was told the price was now $950.00. I paid cash. I asked if the ‘Trans Go’ shift kit was installed and was told a B&M shift kit was used and that:”all those shift kits are the same”.
I was given a talk about how the owner had gone to the trouble of supplying the yoke for the driveshaft, but when I attempted to again explain how I did not believe in the need for the yoke, I was told to “take it just in case”. The transmission did not need the yoke supplied by Central Converter.
The transmission was given to me with a dirty housing; the outside had not been cleaned of year’s worth of dirt and grease accumulation. The owner explained that “most places just paint over the dirt to make it look clean”.
I was told the transmission came out of a V8 powered car, thus making it sound like it was up to the task of powering my car with no problem. Upon inquiry, I was also told it would safely handle up to 400 horsepower, well above the amount my car produces. When I asked about a warranty, I was told the transmission was warranted: “for as long as I owned the car”.
Before installing the transmission, I discovered that the dipstick tube supplied with the transmission was for a Buick, not for a Chevrolet as the transmission shop knew I was building with and as I was expecting. When I went back to Central Converter and told the owner that he supplied the wrong dipstick tube, he tried to charge me for a correct one, which I declined, believing I had already paid for a correct tube, and subsequently found the correct one on my own. Then, while attempting to fit the newly acquired dipstick tube to the transmission housing, the rubber seal or sleeve that the dipstick tube goes into that has the job of preventing transmission fluid from leaking past, came out with the dipstick tube, which is usually no big deal, as it is a push fit in its proper place. What caught my eye and raised red flags was the fact that the outside of the rubber sleeve had dirt stuck to it, which indicated to me that the sleeve had been pushed into place with dirt around the hole it goes into, which translates into dirt being pushed into the transmission when it was installed.
While installing the transmission, I had to drop the fluid pan to remove the large throttle valve spring and put in the one required by a professional Transmission dealer that supplied the correct carburetor linkage . At this time, I noticed the fluid pan had pinholes through the cover which would have drained all fluid had I filled the transmission. I returned the fluid pan to Central Converter with my findings and was told the pan would be replaced. The pan I retrieved a week later from Central Converter was coated inside with paint primer and other gunk which necessitated a thorough cleaning on my part before installation.
I returned to Central Converter and asked for a written warranty. I was rebuffed with an attitude that made me feel as if I was bothering the owner. However, he agreed to do the write up and asked me to return another day for the warranty. When I arrived at the agreed upon time for the warranty, the owner asked me to wait while he retrieved a written invoice and which contained a very vague listing of items used and no prices for the items listed, no name of the shop anywhere on the paper, no phone number, etc. When the owner noticed my scrutiny of his invoice, and before I could question the now written warranty of only 12 months, he quickly said the transmission had “a standard warranty of 12 months” in contradiction to his before stated verbal warranty when he took money without a written guarantee. I had him hand write the name of the shop on the invoice. I had also asked for a wiring diagram so that I could connect the 3-wire lock-up converter feature on the transmission. I was told a wiring diagram would be supplied but as of yet have not received, so I went on the internet for the missing information.
After installing the transmission and scouring the internet for missing information concerning the correct way to go about setting up the controlling features of the THM200-4R transmission, I located and purchased necessary control hardware and completed installation. I then began a series of start-up tests designed to determine if the transmission is ready for road testing. A company on the west coast offers a consulting and diagnostic service in which I can call in my test results (utilizing a special pressure gauge hook-up to the transmission) and recommendations made on the results. I was informed that my pressure gauge readings were “on the low side, but sufficient enough to continue on to road testing”.
Road testing consists of running easily through the gears a number of times to warm up the transmission and fluid. The first test is to check the transmission’s ability to downshift from 2nd to 1st gear from as low a speed as possible after the transmission has shifted into second. The transmission seemed to have trouble shifting into 2nd gear, as I had to let off the accelerator before it would shift. The test states to ‘aggressively accelerate’ to force the transmission to downshift. The transmission supplied by Central Converter failed this first test. The engine revved, but the transmission did not engage any gear at all, seeming to jump into a neutral so I let off the gas before the engine over-revved. Once back to an idle, it felt as though the transmission was again engaged in gear and I carefully drove home. I parked the car, disgusted. When I went to move the car inside the garage two days later, I noticed a large puddle of automatic transmission fluid under the car. I moved the car inside and again, a couple days later noticed a spreading puddle of transmission fluid on the floor of the garage.
Subsequent research on my part shows the transmission supplied by Central Converter is not as touted. The factory code tag on the tail shaft of the transmission indicates the transmission originally was supplied in low-powered Buick V-6 cars from the early 1980s.
09-20-2010, 07:25 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
Sorry to hear what youve been through. With as much research as you did i was surprised you didnt run when he quoted you $350 for the rebuild. That is way below market price. Sometimes you get what you pay for. Ive also learned over the years to always pay by credit card. That way you can protect the transactions should things go bad.
I would go back to the guy and ask for a refund. Ifnhe says no tell him you will bring the car to another shop and sue for the cost of the new trans and the installation.
I feel bad for ya.
I would go back to the guy and ask for a refund. Ifnhe says no tell him you will bring the car to another shop and sue for the cost of the new trans and the installation.
I feel bad for ya.
09-20-2010, 09:59 PM
#4
Racer
Member Since: Aug 2010
Location: bethpage NY
Posts: 263
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i would suggest bowtieoverdrives if you are going to consider to swap.. again. many people here have had positive experiences with them and i just ordered a crossmember from them for my 700 r4 swap. i dont think there are ANY good reliable trustworthy shops around
09-20-2010, 10:38 PM
#5
Drifting
I use to buy rebuilding trans kits and rebuilt T/C's from central conv. He has a very strange buisness practice. Never there during buisness hours, make appointment to pick up parts. It just became a hassle. I deal with Transtar Warehouse in Raratain Center for my kits and NAN Converter in Belford NJ builds my convertors. I only use a shift reprogrammer kit from CK Performance. Chris supplys the Turbo Buick crowd with billet parts for the 2004r from NY. You should have asked about Central Convertor I would have told you bad news
09-21-2010, 12:54 AM
#6
Team Owner
I would not be surprised to find out that NO work had been done to the inside of that transmission. I would bet that it was bought as a working unit from a junk yard and installed as-is. (I hope I'm wrong...)
No one (who is reputable, that is) would leave a main case filthy before reassembling an auto tranny. Dirt in the unit is a definite NO-NO. So, I just don't believe that it was ever rebuilt...or even opened up.
Your choices are to "live and learn" and hope that the tranny survives (the fact that it's from a Buick should not be a concern for you); take it to a 'reputable' shop and ask them for an opinion of what transpired (they will probably decline to comment...unless they want that shop 'axed'); or, call an attorney to file a lawsuit (expensive...unless you win the case). $950 for an installed tranny that works is not totally out of reason; but telling you it was rebuilt to upgraded condition is dubious, at best. Good luck.
No one (who is reputable, that is) would leave a main case filthy before reassembling an auto tranny. Dirt in the unit is a definite NO-NO. So, I just don't believe that it was ever rebuilt...or even opened up.
Your choices are to "live and learn" and hope that the tranny survives (the fact that it's from a Buick should not be a concern for you); take it to a 'reputable' shop and ask them for an opinion of what transpired (they will probably decline to comment...unless they want that shop 'axed'); or, call an attorney to file a lawsuit (expensive...unless you win the case). $950 for an installed tranny that works is not totally out of reason; but telling you it was rebuilt to upgraded condition is dubious, at best. Good luck.
09-21-2010, 09:08 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
Sorry to hear you were scammed. For what it's worth, I think I'd look for a refund from the guy and let him keep the trans. BTW, it doesn't matter if the trans was behind a V8 or a V6 (unless it was out of Buick Grand National, then it's got a few heavier pieces and a better valve body). I used CK Performance out of New York, for my 200-4R. Chris is a great guy and would answer any questions you have about the 200-4R. I put a 2004R in my 81 and it's a good way to go.
09-21-2010, 12:00 PM
#8
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thank you all for your input. I'm really trying to decide on the best course of action and want to weigh as many options as possible. Sometimes the correct way eludes me and hope to resolve this to get back on the road. If I don't actually do the work myself, I'll consider those you've been kind enough to endorse in your replies. Ride on. D~
09-21-2010, 02:34 PM
#9
Team Owner
If you were provided a warranty on the transmission (90 days, maybe), your best alternative [given all the circumstances] would be to just drive it and hope for the best. If the tranny was a low mileage unit from a V8 car, it may last a long time. I would hope that the shop at least put a new filter on the tranny. If so, the pan bolts should look like they have recently been installed with a new-looking gasket in place. If that is not the case, I would recommend that you take it to a "reputable" oil change place and have them drain and replace the tranny fluid and put a new filter and gasket on it. But, the choice is yours. There is a case to be made for "if it ain't broke [yet], don't fix it".
09-21-2010, 03:18 PM
#10
From experience...if there is a strong recommendation that is local then always go "local" such as they suggest Chris with the turbo Buick community.
Sorry to hear about your troubles...we all have had or will eventually get taken for our monies for the most part being in this hobby dealing with others.
Sorry to hear about your troubles...we all have had or will eventually get taken for our monies for the most part being in this hobby dealing with others.
09-22-2010, 07:54 AM
#11
Le Mans Master
Did you have any references on this shop? Are they known locally to be a good shop? It sounds like you bought this over the counter and installed it yourself. Are you sure the TV cable is adjusted correctly? 200R4 and 700R4 absolutely depend on a correctly adjusted TV cable or they won't shift right-or last long.
As far as the rest, it sounds to me that they sold you a pullout unit (core). Probably the yoke they sent was not even a Corvette yoke I bet. If I couldn't adjust the TV cable and make it work, I'd ask for a refund. If he won't give you money back, then take it somewhere better and have it built right. You just bought a very expensive core. Chalk it up to lessons learned. The 200R4 will not live long bone stock behind a V8 with any power. It is a good transmission with all the upgrades, but stock is a bit weak. This is why it was never used by GM stock behind anything bigger than a 307 Olds. The 700R4 was used behind 454s stock. But you are here now, the swap work is done, just do what it takes to make it work. Sorry for your bad experience.
As far as the rest, it sounds to me that they sold you a pullout unit (core). Probably the yoke they sent was not even a Corvette yoke I bet. If I couldn't adjust the TV cable and make it work, I'd ask for a refund. If he won't give you money back, then take it somewhere better and have it built right. You just bought a very expensive core. Chalk it up to lessons learned. The 200R4 will not live long bone stock behind a V8 with any power. It is a good transmission with all the upgrades, but stock is a bit weak. This is why it was never used by GM stock behind anything bigger than a 307 Olds. The 700R4 was used behind 454s stock. But you are here now, the swap work is done, just do what it takes to make it work. Sorry for your bad experience.
