RagTop69

I put my car through an NCRS judging in October. WOW! Talk about a detailed inspection. I went through Drill Instructor School at Ft. Ord, CA back in the early 70s and I don't remember being as thouroughly picked apart during morning inspections as my Vette was. Amazing catches that I had no idea about included a trim ring that, while physically the same as the other three, must have come from a later model Vette. The retainer clamps were in a different place from those on the other three rings. This was ascertained using a compact mirror to peer into the gap between the rings and the wheels. One of my headlights was not a T3. A PO must have replaced a high beam with something from O'Reilly or AutoZone. Who knew! Of course, I do now. My dipstick "stuff" was flapping. Someone had replaced the loop topped BB stick with one that was "P" shaped. I had a locking gas cap which was, apparently, not original to the car. I've since purchased a correct twist on. The center console showed some wear from having the seat belt female latches moving across them for forty years. I also had an incorrect cigarette lighter (no white ring on the ***) and my driver's side courtesy light switch doesn't work. I knew about that one, but forgot because I seldom drive the car at night. Well, there were some more substantial problems (as in more expensive to remedy), like the radio is an aftermarket POS and the battery came directly from WalMart. My fan is also a replacement unit with six blades instead of the correct five blade model. Further, I confess to stupidly throwing out those spongy black GM shocks (apparently part of the original F41 option) and replacing them with KYB Gas-A-Justs. Oops! Having said all this, the car just missed a Top Flight award. The head exterior judge even opined that "on another day when the sun wasn't so bright and pleasant" he might find that the car was "over restored". Ya just can't satisfy some people.

Anyway, the experience was both amazing and frustrating. I have a lenghty punch list of things to address before the next NCRS judging in the area. The only thing that has me worried is, after spending money and time to correct my sins, what if they come up with a whole new list?

69427

I'm constantly amazed when people hand their car off to a complete stranger, and then are let down when that person has a completely different opinion of their car.

Mike Ward

That's exactly what will happen. That's why a person a can put his car through Flight Judging as often as they want.

Try getting more involved with the process than just showing up for a meet.

1974ta

I have a 70 Vert. that I may have judged in the spring.

NCRS is a great resource with all kinds of knowledge. I am a proud member and they have been a great help in learning how my vette looked when new and how to restore stuff.

My big problem will be that my paint is BC/CC and looks far too nice. Still debating whether to take the steps required to dull down door jambs and other areas that never met the buffing wheel at the factory.

It sounds like you did very well for a first time out. I hope to do at least as well. I do know all my headlights are T3? I am too cheap to buy a $175.00 correct RC-15 radiator cap. I am also too cheap to buy a factory correct dist.cap. I also did not want the lectric limited dated spark plug wires. They are not all that good.

Bill

7T1vette

The main purpose of going through such an exercise would be to identify things to work on....assuming you want to have a factory-exact car. Why would you feel bad because you found out things you didn't previously know? Additional knowledge is a good thing...not a bad thing.

LT1driver

don't feel bad, just use the info to correct the car to the level you want, personally I will take a hit on bc/cc to have more durable and better looking paint. get a judging guide which will spell out everything you need to know. paint needs to look original and bc/cc can be made to look like original by a good painter. You decide which and what point hits you are willing to take and what award you are going for ..top, second flight etc. Regional meets seem to be easier on judging than Bloomington and if you judge local first you score better at the big boy events ... that is what I have been told by those who judge and have been judged. good luck and enjoy you car....save the wave.
mike, ncrs member who appreciates bone stock and modified cars...to each his own

hunt4cleanair

Great comment and right on. If its a factory looking paint scheme you're looking for and the painter knows how to make bc/cc look like lacquer, it should do well in an NCRS judging event or BG. The judges are one in the same at the national events. BG does not have a judge development program so they borrow from NCRS, so to speak. I'm familiar with the 68-69 judges and they are car guys that restore cars so they have built their knowledge base of how the cars came from the factory.

hunt4cleanair

Bill

What is important here is you know what is typical for your car (or correct), what is not and made a conscious determination to balance cost versus correctness or points. And you are absolutely correct, some items aren't worth the cost when another will serve the same function.

I go with a group each year to Carlisle and they go to look for that RC-15 cap and other precious parts and find them at a bargain.

jaxlt1

In order to have your car Flight Judged at a Chapter, Regional or National event, one must be an NCRS member. It sounds as if you didn't take the time to prepare for the event. Going over the TIM&JG and using the NCRS Forum to gain additional knowledge would have better prepared yourself, perhaps for a different result.

I personally like the challange of getting it to "Top Flight" readiness. I have successfully achevied this for two of my cars. I have also prepared several cars that I eventually sold based on the "NCRS" standards. I always make sure I referred to the technical judging guides and enjoyed preparing the cars for judging. I do this at my own pace and entered them when I thought I was ready.

1970 Dave

Now that you have heard the "cheerleading" let me show you the other side. I went through about the same process as you. Year 1 judged 2nd flight--- spent the next fall, winter and spring plus about 3,000 dollars fixing addressed areas----year 2 OOPS still 2nd Flight--they deducted points the 2nd year the first year judges passed and passed
things first year judges deducted and I couldn't fix or find the correct part. I got the very distinct feeling there is a tight knit group that you are either a part of, and receive the benefits or an outsider. Just another point of view that you should be aware of. Go the direction of your heart, just keep eyes wide open!

Semper Fi
1970 Dave

Roscoe

If you want the points you have to spend the $$.

Mike Ward

Wow- it took 10 posts for somebody to come up with a conspiracy theory. That usually happens by post 5.

I'll tell you a little secret that is supposed to be only for us insider master judges- you can go to a ribbon manufacturing place and get them to make you a bogus blue one for about 20 bucks. Then you can photoshop a certificate and put your own name on it for only a couple hours time.

This is much simpler and cheaper than dealing with us evil judges and our secret handshakes and winks that keep you from getting your hard earned award.

Talk about sour grapes

Easy Mike

I commend you on your attitude, RagTop69. There are those who would go through Flight Judging, then bad mouth the experience, blame the judges, and bash the NCRS.

No one should know more about your car than you; what is correct; what is not; what functions; what doesn't.

I agree with Mike - it would not hurt to become more involved.

Change a few things and you might get Top Flight the next time around.

Good luck.

1970 Dave

You make my point exactly--question the "inner circle" and receive instant cheap rhetoric and blah blah blah

72ls5fla

NCRS serves a specific purpose - to provide us a blue print for restoring our cars to a condition that was obtained durring the manufacturing and assembly process.

It is true that what is judged today as good/correct could be judged differently at another meet.

Having your car judged at the Chapter level event will likely not yeild the same rsults if you were to take the car to Kissimme for the Winter Regional.
The judging level in some Chapter events may not be as high as the levels at the National and Regional events.

I would use the Chapter event as a 1st pass - see what it makes the grade for and what it fails for. Make some corrections and enter the car in a Regional event.

If it fails for an item that passed previously, ask the judging team to explain why they felt it was incorrect. Most all judges are more than happy to answer questions, I know that I will make time to provide any answer/insight that I can.

A top-flight is an outstanding award, but you can still have an awsome Corvette without it. If you have a car that is truely numbers matching and mostly correct - that is a great thing. It really does not matter if you get a 2nd Flight or a Top-Flight.

The friendships that you make along the way are much more important than a piece of paper - trust me.

Mike Ward

Please re-read post #3, especially the second sentence until you 'get it'. I've often considered putting a motion forward at the national level requiring that a person must be a member of the NCRS for a certain period of time and acquire a certain amount of judging experience and knowledge of the rules and process before they can have their own cars judged.

This would eliminate a lot of the 'one day wonders' that join up just to get their blue ribbon and ride off into the sunset once they've got it, or moan 'it's not fair, they're all a-holes' when they don't.

The down side is that it would also discourage many real enthusiasts who join for the all the right reasons, so is a non-starter.

I'll be glad to repeat the story of the infamous 'Kissimmee Foot Kicker' next Friday or Saturday if anybody is going to be there.

7T1vette

NCRS also provides the opportunity to create a number of proclaimed "experts" who can then wield power wisely...or find fault without the risk of being questioned. I think most NCRS qualified judges are in the 'former' category; but there is no question that some take advantage of their position and abuse their authority at times.

[P.S. This is no different than any other structure that allows 'authoritarian rule' in its charter. This will happen when the word of one person is considered the ultimate rule.]

Mike Ward

Exactly- and given that there's no minimum requirement to be given the title of judge or be awarded the honour of judging at any level of meet up to and including a nationals, assuming that one judge's opinion or interpretation of the rules is correct is foolish indeed- hence my urging that the detractors learn how the system works and take advantage of the opportunities offered.

The organizers do their best to match up the best possible judges with the variety of cars present, but there are examples where the 'FOS windbags' can somewhat unfairly exert influence over the other judge in the team. That's human nature.

The judging process does allow plenty of opportunity to discuss the results and protest/appeal the decisions. If the owner doesn't speak up then please don't blame the system.

There's other examples where the judges are just plain wrong possibly due to ignorance or inexperience with the either the rules or the cars or all of the above. The system allows for re-judging a car as many times as the owner wants- he gets to pick the results he likes the best if that suits him.

Anybody with experience will strongly suggest NOT to make large changes to a car based on the results of one judge or one meet unless it's a well documented no brainer- like the locking gas cap mentioned above.

redvetracr

[QUOTE=Mike Ward;1576591765

I'll tell you a little secret that is supposed to be only for us insider master judges- [/QUOTE]



an old doctor once told me becoming a master judge only requires two things...
a. you show up enough and b. you know how to read a judging manual

Mike Ward

Doing enough of the first one by itself will also get you there. Knowing how to do the second might get you there faster.

What might come as a complete shock to some is that's theres some judges that don't know a from b, and guys that are NOT judges that do know the difference. How about that.