StingrayLust

My rubber bushings are shot, and with the car pulling hard left when driving, it's something I cannot put off until next summer like I was hoping. So I'm about to make my RockAuto order for all of the parts and was looking for input on anything I might have missed as this is my first attempt at the front suspension. The front desk "jockey" at my local AdvanceAuto balked at my price list of parts from RockAuto and said "these are great prices" and didn't seem to want to match them even though their online help says they will price match.

Suspension : Ball Joint
MOOG Part # K6034 [qty 2]
Frt Susp; Upper

MOOG Part # K6035 [qty 2]
Frt Susp; Lower

Suspension : Control Arm Bushing
MOOG Part # K304 Package Quantity As Shown In Image Control Arm Bushing Kit [qty 1]
Frt Susp; Lower

MOOG Part # K5196 Package Quantity As Shown In Image Control Arm Bushing Kit [qty 2]
Frt Susp; Upper

Suspension : Coil Spring
MOOG Part # 5758 Sold In Pairs [qty 1]
Frt Susp; w/o A/C; Heavy Duty Replacement; Constant Rate Springs

Steering : Tie Rod End
MOOG Part # ES323L [qty 2]
Frt Strg; Outer; RH
Frt Strg; Inner; LH

MOOG Part # ES323R [qty 2]
Frt Strg; Outer; LH
Frt Strg; Inner; RH

Brake/Wheel Hub : Wheel Seal
TIMKEN Part # 9406S [qty 2]

Transmission-Manual : Input Shaft Bearing
TIMKEN Part # SET5 [qty 2]

Transmission-Manual : Intermediate Shaft Bearing
TIMKEN Part # SET3 [qty 2]

It's going to cost me $392.16 for the parts. I'll clean up and reuse all of the other parts

sly vette

In my experience the Idler arm wears faster than most other parts...Are you sure yours is good???
Also check the wheel bearings and the rear suspension.
A small amount of play in the rear trailing arms can make the car dart side to side quite noticeablly.
Good Luck and great to see someone doing their own work and saving a buck.
Unless you're sitting on a ton of cash if you want quality work you need to learn to do things like this yourself IMO.

StingrayLust

I thought about replacing the idler arm but wasn't going to. However, after thinking about it some more, since I'm replacing almost everything else in front, for the $50 I should replace the idler arm too.

The rear suspension, from the TH400 driveshaft yoke backwards is completely rebuilt/new with < 50 miles on it. While I replaced the rear shims in the exact same order (new Stainless ones), the car needs an alignment in the most serious way. I thought I could get by this year on alignment alone, but my front bushings are so shot, getting an alignment would be a complete waste of money. So that has forced my hand to rebuild it right now instead of next Spring.

While I do feel some accomplishment for all the things I've done on my car, if I could pay for it to be done and fully driveable I would. That's out of my budget as, in my wifes eyes, I've already spent too much.

Steering : Idler Arm
MOOG Part # K6100
Frt Strg

has now been added, up to $445.93 now.

Sigforty

Do you need a 5% discount code? I get them emailed to me regularly.

StingrayLust

If you've got one, I'll gladly give it a try.

Steve2147

Do you know if you actually need all that stuff? You may be throwing away perfectly good parts and not replacing the one that causing your problem if you don't know how to check this stuff. Even in a frame off restoration I would not replace factory riveted in ball joints that were still in good shape. Lower ball joints wear out at a rate of anywhere from 2 to 4 times as fast as the uppers and the tie rod ends. Inner tie rod ends last longer than outers etc. You get the picture.

What about the ball and socket in the centre link? Steering gear? And as was mentioned, the rear suspension needs to be checked as well.

I wouldn't blindly throw parts at it, but if you're going to do it that way you must replace everything because you don't know what you're fixing.

Steve g

StingrayLust

Steve,

The rear-end from driveshaft backwards is all new/refurb, nothing to touch there. All 4 shocks have already been replaced.

Do I know if all of the front suspension needs to be replaced, no. Guaranteed that the bushings need to be replaced and that's about it. The odo reads about 50k (but could be 150k?!) and the prev owner didn't do much maintenance on the car. So if I'm going to be ripping apart the arms for the bushings, it seems like the appropriate time to get everything back to a known status. I know there's tests you can use to determine if ball joints are bad or not, I'm probably still going to replace them.

I bought the car through a bank repo, so I have no prior history of it and don't feel like asking the repo'd owner for help if you know what I mean. So I see benefit in knowing exactly what's on my car and it's condition.

TheSkunkWorks

I'd skip replacing the coils if your ride heights are OK or unless they're rusted baldy. Also, inspect the rag joint and check the steering box for proper lash. The latter might only need adjustment in lieu of rebuilt. Either way, overlooking it could leave you dissapointed with all the other work.

thoyer

I agree. Fix what needs replacing and put the left over money in your pocket.

Upper/lower bushings are almost always bad by now so go after them. Ball joints are riveted in and unless they are bad, I'd leave them be.

Unless you have some severe front end sag, I'd leave the springs alone. You can always do some measurement checking against the dimensions shown in the AIM. When I did my 71 LS5 front end, I put the original springs back in and the ride height is spot on to the factory specs.

Have fun

Tom

1960 283/230 Black/Black 4sp
1971 LS5 coupe, 4sp, Bridgehampton Blue
2005 Z51 coupe, 6sp, Lemans Blue

Steve2147

The 69 I'm working on now has the original uppers and they are perfectly tight. No new ball joint is going to last any longer than that one, if it even lasts as long. The oe parts are quality, not always the case with aftermarket.

Same with my 67 442. Those were all originals.

Tie rod ends last a very long time.

There are some things that you don't reuse because going back in at a later date is a lot of work. This isn't one of those cases.

But most important, more important than wasting money, is that it is critical to know that you have found and fixed the problem. If you go through and check all those parts (extremely simple to do) and find all of them within spec, why did the car steer so badly. So you continue to look until you actually find your problem.

Safety first.

Steve g

StingrayLust

The car did list slightly to the drivers side. While that may not be 100% the front coils fault, it's probably the original coil and for $50, it's getting replaced while I'm there.

The rag joint is a brand new GM $80 part, the one on it was pretty bad:


The steering box, while almost certainly the original and probably needs a rebuild and has most likely lost most of it's grease, is going to stay for now. I did adjust the top lash screw a full turn (yes I believe that's a lot) as the steering had too much play in it and the full turn did tighten it up. Yes, I have read that making it too tight causes other parts more wear. The steering box will be replaced, just not this year, so it has to make it through this year.

StingrayLust

How many miles on your 69 and 67? If I take everything off, can I just tell that the ball joint is bad in my hand, or does it need the full weight of the car on it before I can tell? I was just hoping to have everything ordered at once than having to do it bit by bit.

Most assuredly the main culprit of the left pull is that my bushing are almost completely gone. Those have to be replaced.

Another factor why I want to replace them, other than it's tedious to get at them later, is that with the bubba work on this car, I'm really trying to get back to a car where I know exactly what parts are in there and that they're correct.

Steve2147

The 442 had 93k, the 69 has 44.

Here's how you check a front end. Jack the car upcontrol arm and put a jack stand under the lower control arm as close to the ball joint end as you can. Set the jack stand so that you have about 4" under the tire. Get both sides up at the same time for easiest and most accurate checking.

This unloads the ball joints. When the wheel is on the ground the spring and vehicle weight are keeping everything tight.

Now that you have the susp unloaded take a 5" length of 2x4 to use as a lever. Set the end of the 2x4 under the tire and using it as a lever attempt to lift the tire up. Watch the lower ball joint as you do this for any up and down movement of the spindle away from the control arm. This indicates vertical wear in the ball stud. If you see any, you can stop and write that one off. If you don't see any vertical movement, use your lever to attempt to move the bottom of the tire sideways, in and out. This is checking for any horizontal movement of the ball stud. If you see any, it's toast.

Now have a helper grab the top of the tire and attempt to push it in then pull it out while you look at the upper ball joint. Any looseness in the joing, replace it.

Now grab the centre link under the idler arm and lift it up and down. If it moves up and down any, replace it. Now take a crow bar and wedge it in the control arm so that you can pry down on the tie rod endPrying the grease nipple side toward the steering arm). If it moves, replace it. Do this for all 4. Now put the car back on the ground. Have your helper rock the steering wheel back and forth while you watch the ball stud at the pitman arm. If the pitman is moving at all without the centre link moving, that needs service (manual steering only). Power steering the control wvalve will have movement in it and that's normal.

About the easiest and cheapest thing to redo is the steering box. Paragon sells a rebuild kit with brgs and seals for $60, but there's a high probability that you can reuse the bearings and only need about $10 worth of seals. The biggest thing is to know how to properly adjust the box. It should be done before it is disassembled to ensure the high spot on the sector isn't worn out. This is one thing I wouldn't postpone. Cheap and makes a huge difference in handling if done right.

As you already know, bushings are simply visually inspected.

Unless there's something on the back side of that rag joint, I don't see anything wrong with it. I would derust and put back in service.

Steve g

Steve2147

I should have added, nothing wrong with the rag joint other than it was installed wrong. Either the splined joint on the upper shaft needs to be slid down or the entire column needs to be slid down. There shouldn't be anywhere near that much wave in the rubber.

Also meant to add, yes you can inspect them in your hand, but it is better to do it before you take them out.

Steve g

StingrayLust

Since the control arms will both be out for the replacement of the bushings, it seems that I'd have a more positive feel of the joint and any movement with my hand than trying to pry the ball joint around and visually looking for changes. Again, I've never done this, just seems my hand would more easily be able to feel any bad play in the joint.

My Haynes repair book in chapter 10, page 5-6, also mentioned about putting the bolt on and checking how much torque it takes to rotate it. I believe they said if it's within 3-10lbs it ok, but outside that it's too loose or has possibly seized.

Sigforty

Here you go. This one expires on August 21. So use it soon.

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builder

I had an upper A-arm bolt come loose on me. Pulled to the left real bad. Then it let loose real fast and pulled real hard to the left. I was lucky I was only doing 30 mph. Checked them again and found the other side loose. Might want to check that out.

Steve2147

I've been a journeyman tech for over 35 years and I've never seen a ball joint spec in a factory service manual set out as amount of torque to turn it in the socket. The fsms and the charts the wheel alignment equipment manufacturers always showed it in amount of movement. Some load carrying ball joints (that's the lowers on your c3) are allowed up to 1/4" vertical movement (0 horizontal).

The reason I like to check them on the car is that you are actually using a lever to apply a fair amount of pressure on it. And when checking the top you have the leverage the tire gives to really put pressure on it. If you are checking it in your hand wash the grease out so that you can be reasonably sure nothing is giviing you a false reading.

Steve g

7T1vette

On another note: You plan on replacing bearings on your manual tranny....are you also planning on replacing external seals?

gregmuzila

Just did this for my rear differential this week. he will more than likely need new seals.

took it apart, then had to order seals, then took more apart, then had to order bearings. oh how i should of known to basically just rebuild the back differential lol