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Old 10-09-2013, 02:09 AM   #1
PreviousOwner
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Default What's it Worth? '69 with ZL1 Engine

So here's the eBay ad...I'm sure many of you have run across it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-...orcev4exp=true

Here's the ad from the Dealer's website:
http://www.motoreum.com/1969-Chevrol...-78726/4559132

Does the ZL1 (apparently Camaro) ad THAT much to the value of the car? Is Black over Saddle THAT rare? Anyway, it's been tough getting any info from the salesperson there. For example, the vin# is incorrect in both ads and there are several contradictions that, so far, remain unanswered.

Thoughts? Has anyone in the area looked at the car by any chance?

Have also stumbled across that it's been in two auctions recently, bid up to $45k exactly both times, and then becomes a "no sale". Not trying to bash anyone, just not getting that "warm, fuzzy" feeling. Again, thoughts on the car, it's value, drive comfort, etc. appreciated.

Best,
PO

(Mods please feel free to move or edit as necessary)
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:30 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreviousOwner View Post
...Does the ZL1 (apparently Camaro) ad THAT much to the value of the car?...
Not from where I sit. It's a nice 69, but at the end of the day it's a used car with a replacement engine.

Quote:
...Is Black over Saddle THAT rare?...
It was a popular combination.

Quote:
...it's been tough getting any info from the salesperson there...
So pass on this car and let them keep it.

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Old 10-09-2013, 08:32 AM   #3
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So pass on this car and let them keep it.
Great advice right here.

I am an expert on passing on cars especially if the seller isn't cooperative. Move on to the next one. There will always be another car.

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Old 10-09-2013, 09:33 AM   #4
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Very clean car. They seem to give an honest description (and pictures of dings), though that inspection may be a bit old as I do not see a hand-painted stripe or black wheels.

A NOM ZL1 does deserve an increase in price tag, in my opinion. I would like to know the internals and any data they may have on it, and who built it. But if you want a turn key, big HP corvette, that's a good start.

How do you feel about running open headers? Not that cruising down the neighborhood block in a ZL1 would be much fun anyway.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:14 AM   #5
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From my personal experience, any big-cammed big block with open headers in a Corvette is very loud and temperamental. Not a good cruiser under any circumstances but a lot of fun in short drives unless you are really into hearing aids when you get older. A good friend of mine owned and drove (often) a stock factory genuine '69 L-88 with Hooker sidemounts and no baffles (usually). It was a ball of fun riding through the cruise line at night but deafening after a while. BTW, he bought the car several years ago off the back row at a used car lot in a small town close to here for (are you sitting down?) the sum of $2500. Yep. For real. No one knew what it was other than a loud, obnoxious Corvette convertible with a big motor, four speed, and no power options, radio, or heater. Who would want such a car?

He paid cash and we fired it up and drove it home. Rapidly.
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:55 AM   #6
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Something about the listing clicked with me, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Figured it out...wonder what they paid for the photography?

Overkill, but first class stuff.

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Old 10-09-2013, 10:59 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PreviousOwner View Post
Does the ZL1 (apparently Camaro) ad THAT much to the value of the car? Is Black over Saddle THAT rare? Anyway, it's been tough getting [...]

Have also stumbled across that it's been in two auctions recently, bid up to $45k exactly both times, and then becomes a "no sale".
It doesn't actually add any value to the car--it probably detracts. Look at it this way, the long block running engine is probably worth $25,000 to $35,000 out of the car, since it is claimed this is a real 052 casting. My guess is 10 years ago you could have got more, but with the "Anniversary Edition" ZL1 out there at $22k for a crate motor, I can't imagine an original would sell for as much since they are all "fakes" in the cars they are in and most are in rough shape... Still, I would think you would still get some premium.

So what you have is a coupe chassis that is in exceptionally good condition with a very expensive and nice Richmond 5 speed, what looks like a trick exhaust system with cutouts, and first-rate suspension, wheels, and tires for $10,000 to $20,000. That, in my book, is a bargain. The ask for this car isn't all that bad, really, and very likely reflects a substantial discount over even the part-out value. Someone just can't bring themselves to part their baby, and I don't blame them.

So far as having (basically) open headers and a big, huge cam not being fun for cruising... Well, I beg to differ. Half an hour on the highway is another story. But with this particular car and the 5 speed and mufflers (which exit in some location I cannot seem to see)? Piece of cake. The value for dollar this car offers is unrivaled by just about anything else for sale right now, if you want value (assuming you ascribe a ridiculous value to the aluminum block, which is fair since you can part it and get the cash).

EDIT: I hate to editorialize, but it's really a shame something like this doesn't command a higher price than a car which was unimaginatively (and likely more cheaply) restored out of a catalog, but still happens to have its original engine block. I suspect the Camaro crowd would happily pay close to six figures for a pro-touring tribute car like this to drive. And better, the guy that built it would be almost universally praised for his efforts, and get a great deal of respect and admiration at shows. But apparently since most high dollar Vette guys would rather polish their cars and have them judged for points than drive them, this car is next to worthless and the person who crafted it gets less than zero for doing it, and probably a lot of scorn if this was an original big block car. So who wants to do it? Who wants to put up with it? C'mon--ask yourself, would you REALLY want to drive this thing to a Corvette show with that console tag on it and have to deal with the nasty stares from guys looking over their glasses at you? The first thing I would do would be to rip off the tag to get rid of the endless questions about whether it used to a real tripower that you cut up. Sorry, but as the rare younger guy here, seeing cars like this for this price just irks me. A lot. This car ought to be much more expensive, but no market exists as it would for almost any other classic....

Last edited by ryanmh; 10-09-2013 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:26 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanmh View Post
EDIT: I hate to editorialize, but it's really a shame something like this doesn't command a higher price than a car which was unimaginatively (and likely more cheaply) restored out of a catalog, but still happens to have its original engine block. I suspect the Camaro crowd would happily pay close to six figures for a pro-touring tribute car like this to drive. And better, the guy that built it would be almost universally praised for his efforts, and get a great deal of respect and admiration at shows. But apparently since most high dollar Vette guys would rather polish their cars and have them judged for points than drive them, this car is next to worthless and the person who crafted it gets less than zero for doing it, and probably a lot of scorn if this was an original big block car. So who wants to do it? Who wants to put up with it? C'mon--ask yourself, would you REALLY want to drive this thing to a Corvette show with that console tag on it and have to deal with the nasty stares from guys looking over their glasses at you? The first thing I would do would be to rip off the tag. Sorry, but as the rare younger guy here, seeing cars like this for this price just irks me. A lot. This car ought to be much more expensive, but no market exists as it would for almost any other classic....

Took the words out of my mouth!!

One stunning and lovely build Pro-Touring Corvette!
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeMans Pete View Post
...

How do you feel about running open headers? Not that cruising down the neighborhood block in a ZL1 would be much fun anyway.
Oh, it's fun. BIG fun, the first time you do it.

Decades ago, I used to run a shoe box Chevy with a high compression small block and uncapped fenderwell headers; it was a game of cat and mouse. Get up to speed, throw it in neutral, shut off the motor, and coast to the next turn or stop. Clutch start and repeat because it was a no brainer where you were by listening. That routine got old quick. Even then there were noise restrictions in town.

Any non-automotive related neighbors or LE would let you know whether they shared the same enthusiasm. Try running across town and the constant raised volume begins to wear on you and anyone within audio reception.

Open headers are best left for track sessions (where allowed, as some of them have muffled race motors).

As far as this particular car goes, I'd love to have it for the price. For that kind of money, you get a gorgeous car with a fair amount of quality pieces to go with the modified NOM. Maybe it could go for more but then muscle car prices are so subjective. They can change with the wind.
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanmh View Post
...but it's really a shame something like this doesn't command a higher price than a car which was unimaginatively (and likely more cheaply) restored out of a catalog...
Why a shame? It's a matter of what a buyer wants. Some folks like modified cars like this one and will pay for them. Others of us do not like the modified cars and have no real interest in them. I don't see why either has to be shameful.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:40 PM   #11
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It's a very nice car and not advertised as a restoration. A performance enthusiast who would like to create such a car is the perfect candidate as potential owner. If I had plenty of spare cash I would enjoy owning it myself although I don't care to have that level of performance. It is just a nice Corvette overall. To each his own.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:51 PM   #12
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Minor point, the serial number has too many digits after the "S"


194379S7116821
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:10 PM   #13
LeMans Pete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanmh View Post
EDIT: I hate to editorialize, but it's really a shame something like this doesn't command a higher price than a car which was unimaginatively (and likely more cheaply) restored out of a catalog, but still happens to have its original engine block. I suspect the Camaro crowd would happily pay close to six figures for a pro-touring tribute car like this to drive. And better, the guy that built it would be almost universally praised for his efforts, and get a great deal of respect and admiration at shows. But apparently since most high dollar Vette guys would rather polish their cars and have them judged for points than drive them, this car is next to worthless and the person who crafted it gets less than zero for doing it, and probably a lot of scorn if this was an original big block car. So who wants to do it? Who wants to put up with it? C'mon--ask yourself, would you REALLY want to drive this thing to a Corvette show with that console tag on it and have to deal with the nasty stares from guys looking over their glasses at you? The first thing I would do would be to rip off the tag to get rid of the endless questions about whether it used to a real tripower that you cut up. Sorry, but as the rare younger guy here, seeing cars like this for this price just irks me. A lot. This car ought to be much more expensive, but no market exists as it would for almost any other classic....
Ryan I respect your opinion and preferences on NOM and modified cars. Maybe one day you'll respect the dedication and hard work it takes the "purists" to recreate the "from the factory" look.

As for the dataplate, you could always replace it with this one:

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:14 PM   #14
PreviousOwner
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Just a tad more info:

The sales guy emailed me that the exhaust is set up for "dump pipes". Wasn't familiar with that term. It looks like the mufflers are still on (or, were at some point).

MelWff, I caught the Vin# issue too. The correct one is: 194379S716821

Amazing some of the incorrect crap that ends up in these ads. Still trying to get some info on the "hand painted accent stripe", cracks on dash, etc. For that kind of money, I'd proofread it 95 times.

Personally, I think it's a nice-looking car. Pictures always seem to make 'em look better than reality. I live in Texas, so, sales tax would kill me. Trying to trade 'em a real nice Daytona Yellow 1969 Chevelle SS 396/325 original engine car, to cut down on the taxes. So far, not a word on what they think it's worth.

Thanks for the input so far.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:38 PM   #15
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for what it's worth this car, 2 away from that serial number, VIN 194679S716819 was built on

Car's confirmed production date:
(as confirmed by the
NCRS Shipping Report Service) February 20, 1969
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