Kris Tunetso

See Post #19 for current revision of The Plan

In another thread speaking with a new member, it was brought up the importance of having a plan for your project, be it daily driver, drag racer or full-on factory restoration. I made a comment that I'm 3 months into owning my car and still didn't have a real plan. So, I sat down last night and came up with what I think is a reasonable outline of what I where I want to end up, and what I think I need to do to get there.

I'm asking the forum to review this and suggest what I ought to change based on safety, performance, etc, and what other things not listed that I need to consider. Also, I don't need suggestions on engine parts or replacement motors. I'll come back later asking for suggestions on parts combos, or crate engines, when I reach that stage of my project.

The Plan

Ultimately, what I am looking for is something along the lines of a Grand Touring (GT) car: AC/Heat, Fuel efficient, good ride quality, minimal road or engine noise, reliable.

Parts not mentioned are to be refurbished and reused where possible. Metal parts to be powder coated black unless otherwise specified or impractical.

Chassis
Frame

• fully welded and reinforced per the Chevy Power Book
• polyurethane body mount bushings
• polyurethane core support bushings

Front Suspension

• polyurethane control arm bushings
• polyurethane sway bar bushings
• polyurethane sway bar end links
• high-quality shocks designed for cruising (Monroe SensaTrac?)

Steering

• Borgeson steering box
• new rag joint

Brakes

• stainless-sleeved calipers, painted red
• stainless brake lines
• stainless park brake hardware and lines

Drivetrain

• aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, possibly dual electric fans
• mildly built 350, shooting for min. 350 RWHP
• polyurethane engine mounts
• dual exhaust with H-pipe and dual catalytic converters, whatever mufflers provide that deep American-muscle rumble
• Q-jet rebuilt by Lars or Cliff
• TH200-4R conversion (currently THM350)
• polyurethane transmission mount
• stock rubber differential carrier mounting bracket (snubber) bushing (per Mike Ward)
• stock rubber differential crossmember bushings (per Mike Ward)
• rear gears in whatever ratio will help get good gas mileage. Decent performance is a nice second. Currently have 3.08.

Rear Suspension

• stock rubber trailing arm bushings (per Mike Ward)
• rear sway bar
• polyurethane sway bar bushings
• polyurethane leaf spring bushings
• adjustable heim-joint strut rods or refurbished stock strut rods w/ polyurethane bushings
• high-quality shocks designed for cruising (Monroe SensaTrac?)

Fuel System

• stainless fuel lines
• all new rubber lines and seals
• refurbish sending unit: replace if necessary
• sandblast and powder coat gas tank silver

Body
Birdcage

• repair rust as required
• paint with rust-inhibitor paint
• thermal remediation at firewall, under floor pans and trans tunnel

Exterior

• electric headlamp actuators
• stubby radio antenna
• remove factory alarm remnants, patch fender hole
• install missing factory front air dam/spoiler
• screen over valence openings
• replace mirrors with chrome OEM mirrors: patch screw holes
• replace L-82 badges with correct L-48 badges
• clean up and match body lines
• close up door gaps
• close up t-top gaps
• recondition/reuse original windshield, rear glass and windows
• new weather-stripping everywhere
• paint factory 1976 Red
• paint bumperettes black, as factory correct

Interior

• replace current incorrect fiberglass floor pans with correct steel pans
• coat pans for rust-prevention
• thermal remediation at firewall, on floor pans and trans tunnel
• factory replacement black cut-pile carpet kit
• rebuild tilt-tele steering column
• VintageAir A/C system
• Shiftworks kit to display gears correctly and allow manual hold of 1st gear
• factory-correct replacement dual-retractor seatbelts - black
• classic-looking radio w/ front aux input for phone or MP3 player
• new front dash speakers, add kick-panel speakers, add rear speakers, sub and amps.
• Quartz clock conversion

Electrical

• complete wiring harness replacement from Willcox or Lectric Limited

Okay, that's everything I could come up with. Have at it.

LeMans Pete

Hi Kris,

That's a heck of a list. I see alot of polyurethane and stainless steel, why is that? I believe you'll notice a harsher ride with poly control arm bushings, I would recommend sticking with rubber.

Also, I do not see a reason to replace your fuel and brake lines with stainless unless you have severe issues with them.

Have you considered a steeroids system and maybe a grand touring suspension kit from Vette Brakes and Products?

Why replace the fiberglass floor pans?

Are you removing the body from the frame? Is this work you plan on doing all at once, or while you drive the car? You have a very expensive list, I think you need to consider that in your plan.

Goodluck.

Kris Tunetso

Thanks for the reply Pete. The polyurethane parts are on here mainly because I've been under the impression for many years now that poly bushings lend to a stiffer, more "positive" handling, where rubber tends to be softer and "mushy" feeling. I'm not intending to race the car, but I don't want to feel like I'm driving a slug either. I believe that proper touring springs and shocks will mitigate whatever harshness the poly induces in the ride. Am I wrong here?

Fuel and brake replacement with stainless is just what I will replace them with if necessary. I have yet to fully check the fuel and brake systems. I'm developing this plan from the assumption that practically everything needs to be redone. A worst-case scenario, if you will; I want decide, now, how I want to address a part if it's bad rather than trying to figure it out on the fly. Does that make sense?

I've looked at both the Steeroids rack and the Borgeson box (have read many, many threads on both here) and for reasons of both simplicity and cost I chose the Borgeson option. I'm fortunate that, at the moment, my stock power steering system doesn't leak so it'll be some time before make the swap, but if it does start leaking soon I'll already know what my options are and what I want to do, instead of the car sitting for a while until I figured it out.

After you pointed it out I looked at the the GT suspension kit from VBP and it's definitely an option. It certainly looks like it has a lot of the components I'm looking for. I'll admit to being rather tight with my wallet so I'm not likely to spend money on it if my stock suspension is fine, at least not right now. I'd rather spend money on things I need before things I want, but I will definitely add it to the list as an upgrade option once the needs are taken care of. Thanks.

Replacing the floorpans.... well, you'd have to see the underside of my car. 76s are supposed to have steel floor pans, at least according to my AIM and everything I've read online. I can only guess that they rusted out, and some previous owner did a hack-job putting fiberglass in their place. There are areas under the carpet that are sealed with expanding foam! Also, my seats aren't bolted down correctly because the mounting points aren't where they should be. They're solid enough, but not what they ought to be. So, all that needs to come out so I can properly set everything up.

I'm not removing the body from the frame for at least another 2 or 3 years. I want to do as much as I can while still retaining the ability to drive the car, because once I park it to do the major stuff I wont be driving it for a long time. I've waited 24 years to own this car; I'm going to enjoy it for a while before dismantling it.


Hmm... after proofreading this post several times I wonder if maybe I shouldn't be outlining what the car needs, so people know what I'm focusing on in the overall list. I'll see about that when I get home later.

Mick71

I used rubber bushings and all stock steering parts in mine and it feels nice and tight.

Zoomin

I concur with the rubber bushings, especially since you are looking at a GT type car. Also, working with stainless lines is a PITA. They are quite a bit harder and as such are harder to bend - and every kit needs to be tweaked to fit right.

The Phantom

"I see alot of polyurethane and stainless steel, why is that? I believe you'll notice a harsher ride with poly control arm bushings, I would recommend sticking with rubber."

I have to agree with Pete above, I have an 85 Z28 when I upgraded the suspension Poly was all the rage, I will admit that the car corners hard but in the end it's the cruising that has suffered ... it is much harsher than stock and like our corvettes these cars were firm to start with. I am in the middle of a 71 upgrade / overhaul rubber will find its way back in as I have lived the poly dream its a bit of a cruising nightmare!

My thoughts, good luck.

Dave

Kris Tunetso

Okay, it sounds like poly bushings are not suited for what I want. Good to know!

Is there anywhere on the car where Poly would be an improvement? Such as, engine or transmission mounts?

Also, on the advice of you kind folks, I'll look into stock-replacement fuel and brake lines in lieu of stainless. I wanted stainless for the corrosion-resistance and longevity, but I suppose if stock lasted for 40 years it'll do fine again.

The Phantom

... and now you are saving money! Poly on the trans mount and engine mount will work fine.

Dave

Ibanez540r

RED FLAG ...from experience of similar situation.

Have you looked closely at your birdcage and frame? Have you pulled the panels and looked at the pockets of the #2 body mounts? Has the windshield been pulled and upper and lower corners checked?

I would do the above before you proceed with this project and putting money into it. I had a bad floor and frame, have my new powder coated frame almost to a full rolling chassis, before I really got into the birdcage only to find it out its pretty bad. I have an emotional attachment to the car due to it being from my brother that has passed, so I knew I was all in regardless.

80Baby

Sorry guys, I'm in the pro Poly Bushing club. With gas shocks and a composite rear spring, the Poly ride is not bad at all. The best part is the piece of mind. I know that my synthetic bushings will not degrade over time as rubber most certainly will. But getting back to the OP's plan list, looks similar to what I'm doing with my '80. Although my car was a runner prior to putting it up on the jack stands, I had no desire to fix things on it and still drive it for a couple of years. Simply put - the car was in really bad shape. I bought this particular car in this particular shape because I didn't want any second thoughts when it came to ripping the entire thing apart. And no regrets here. The car was a piece of crap when I rolled it into the garage. When it rolls back out, it'll be a brand new '80 Vette (with Poly bushing too... ).

And please be mindful of Ibanez540r's advice on the frame and Bird Cage. He knows of what he speaks. I too have an intense sentimental attachment to the '80 Vette. And because of that, I'm spending mucho moola on my restoration. More so than what I would normally do. I had to replace my frame because the original was too badly corroded to save. And I also had to purchase a second Bird Cage; transfer about 50% of the '80 Cage to the donar Cage along with the clips and brackets for the dash pad and the manual transmission. If I had known about the frame prior to buying the car, I would have passed on it and looked for another '80 instead.

Kris Tunetso

My frame looks to be in good condition. Previous Owner kept it inside and under a cover, only driving a few weeks during the summer. Said he put less than 700 miles on it in the 3 years he owned it. I've had it for 3 months and am nearing 1000. I've looked the frame over (and under) pretty well and it looks solid. Didn't find any visible rot, scale or thin spots, so that's a good sign. It doesn't mean the frame's rust-free of course, but there's no way to know that without stripping it down to bare.

For the Birdcage and #2 mounts, I haven't really looked yet. I need to, I know, I just haven't gotten around to it. Part of the reason is that I'm a little nervous about what I'll find, and I don't have the facilities to fix it if I need to. (seriously, a high-school ag kid can weld better than me.) But, your comment has reminded me that I have read that wet or rusted floor pans can mean rust and leaks in the birdcage, so I'll move that up on my "to do soon" list. Thanks. Also, did you really mean 'remove the windshield'? If I were already in the midst of a body-off then sure, I'd remove it (glass needs to be buffed and cleaned up anyway) but not just to check the cage. I've never heard of anyone doing that. Did you mean just the windshield moldings?


80Baby, did you have a chance to feel how much stiffer a poly-bushed ride is compared to rubber? I'd like to get some input on that from first-hand experience. The rest of you as well, if you have experience with both setups, I'd love to hear how you rate them in comparison.

I've done a little reading elsewhere and a lot of muscle-car forums (Camaro, Chevelle, etc) seem to go for poly body mounts and rubber everywhere else for a touring car. Less body roll due to the poly, but better ride quality and noise dampening from the rubber suspension and driveline bushings. Does this sound accurate?

Ibanez540r

No, pulling the windshield is not a "regular" inspection thing to do, BUT once you have rotted floors, then IF you find bad news at the #2 body mount, it is what has to be done to locate your problem.

You could pull all of the dash and window mouldings and the windshield surround can look perfect, then once it is pulled out you find giant holes.

1. INDICATION - rotted floors
2. CONFIRMATION - #2 body mount pocket
3. LOCATION - pulling windshield - upper or lower corners

Sunstroked

Looking over your plan, I find it similar to what I have already accomplished over the last 3 yrs.
Re: budget. Plan on $20k+ to do this overhaul. Been there, done that.That's without doing any major birdcage repair.
Re: poly. Nothing wrong with rubber in some of the suspension parts, I used a mix of poly and rubber. Poly eng, trans and diff bushing will be more durable then rubber, especially with a pumped up 350. Also poly in the sway bar bushings are not going to hurt your ride.
Re: fuel system. Buy a new tank. Odds are yours is getting thin, blasting it will certainly open up a can of worms. And I doubt a powder coater will put 1 in the oven anyway.
SS fuel lines are easily straightened with a tubing bender. They come bent in half for shipping ease.
Don't be afraid to look at the #2 mounts, only a kick panel away. If it's rotted, save your money for a better car and drive this one until you can afford it.

Kris Tunetso

I see. Thank you for the clarification.

Thanks for the expectation on budget. Honestly, I figure this is just going to cost what it costs, budget-be-da**ed. I don't plan on ever selling the car so I'm not worried about getting my money back out of it.
RE. poly: the consensus seems to lean toward rubber, so that'll be my plan for the time being. If I don't like it I can always switch later.
Fuel... I'll take into consideration buying a new tank. The current one looks fine: I really just wanted to clean it up and make it look nice, but I'm more than willing to replace it if I have to. The stainless lines, I'm still not sure about. Part of me wants them for the increased durability, but given that stock lines seem to last just fine I have to ask myself if the increase in cost is worth it? I'll probably be dead before the new lines, of either material, need replaced again.

I just went to the garage and looked at the #2 mounts. Each mount had a nice little pile of rust scale and dust sitting on top of it, which gives every indication that the windshield frame, somewhere, is compromised. I can't say I didn't expect this, but it's still disheartening. However, after vacuuming all that rust dust away, the mounts themselves look pretty good: a little scale on them but nothing worrisome. A coat or 3 of a rust-inhibitor should take care of it.

I only drive the car on warm, dry days, so I'm not terribly worried about the rust right now. Yes, it's a big deal, but I think I can get away with driving it off and on until I park it for the winter. At that time, I can pull the windshield, send it off to one of the local glass shops to be refurbished, and inspect the windshield frame. If any metalwork needs to be done (and I think we all agree likely does) then I'll have all winter to buy replacement metal and line up a welding shop to burn it all in. I need to take my dash out to replace some things anyway and having the windshield out will be a big bonus for that.

Gotta think positive!

Thanks again to everyone for your input. It's really helped me refine my approach to this project. To everyone else reading this, please chime in with your opinions as well. I'd love to get a dozen or so different people to weigh in on this.

Postal123

It sounds like your primary objective is to have a reasonably powerful, well handling and comfortable car. With that said, my take is that you're more focused on comfort and reliability...

Here's my $.02

-The SS fuel lines are not a huge deal. They are tougher to flare and get a seal, but once sealed up...they should outlive you. The plus here is that your body will be off for the other mods so I would advise you to do this. For the brakes, I would not do SS. The smaller diameter tubing is nearly impossible to flare, even with top of the line equipment. SS hoses for the brakes...yes, but I strongly recommend standard steel brake lines. They will likely outlive you too.

- As others have advised regarding the poly bushings. For your wants/needs this might be a wash. Poly can get squeaky and require occasional attention (for the squeaks), and I feel that with your goals this might be a negative. It will be tighter/handle better, but new rubber will handle very good.

- I think your rear gear will suit you very well with the planned tranny swap and your goals.

- I would opt for a rack and pinion mod vs your current plan. My reasoning...again the body will be off already. Many have had great results fabricating a factory R&P rack and they're simply lighter, tighter and more reliable.

- Can I add a serpentine bracket assy to your list. Search Ebay for 88-92 ish Camaro brackets. Then you can easily add modern accessories for your Grand Touring pleasure...modern alternator, ps pump for your new R&P, factory GM pancake compressor plumbed to your Vintage AC... ( this would require a reverse flow water pump) With the serp belt you'll be able to troubleshoot and isolate any 'squeaks' to the poly suspension bushings...trying to be funny hear... cuz you know V belts are sqeaky...

- I didn't see it, but many love their aluminum radiators with dual electric spals...

Hope this helps,
Rob

Kris Tunetso

Thanks for your insight!

Postal123

Copy all on the steering box. I sensed it was a price vs reward type of decision. Yes the kits are expensive. In case you change your mind a few here have used units from other late model cars and installed with great success using fabbed brackets. I've heard some negative reports on the kits (less than stout brackets. With that said, I've heard very good things about the Borg box, but no personal experience.

Please keep in mind throughout all of this that many folks love to justify their decision as a great one simply because they spent some money on it. Tires for instance...of course your new x brand tires are superb compared to your worn out y brands... Not in reference to the Borg box, just a general statement so you take things with a grain of salt.

I don't want to mislead you on the '3.08 rear gear'. It will be fine for touring needs and ok for performance. The 200R4 has a 2.74 first gear yielding a final drive in 1st of about 8.4. A 3.55 gear will yield 9.7. The optimal 1st gear final drive is 10.1, then you need to consider spacing of the gears and eventually the RPM for normal highway cruise and your limiting RMP at top speeds (if that's a concern). With the TH350 and your 3.08 you had about 7.7 final drive so its an improvement. There are a few threads on the topic.

Kris Tunetso

I really appreciate your input Postal. Your comments have greatly helped me iron out some of the items on this plan and made me question and justify others. I need that to make sure I'm not doing something "just because". Next post will contain an updated plan.

Kris Tunetso

Alright, I've made adjustments to the plan based on the above comments.

I'm asking the forum to review this and suggest what I ought to change based on safety, performance, etc, and what other things not listed that I need to consider. I do not need suggestions on engine parts or replacement motors at this time, and I'm set on a Borgeson box over a rack system. The rest, suggest away!

The Plan

Ultimately, what I am looking for is something along the lines of a Grand Touring (GT) car: AC/Heat, Fuel efficient, good ride quality, minimal road or engine noise, reliable. Something reasonably powerful, well handling and comfortable with focus on comfort and reliability. This is a cruiser, not a racer.

Parts not mentioned are to be refurbished and reused where possible. Metal parts to be powder coated black unless otherwise specified or impractical.

Chassis
Frame

• fully welded and reinforced per the Chevy Power Book
• stock rubber body mount bushings
• stock rubber core support bushings

Front Suspension

• stock rubber control arm bushings
• VBP Grand Touring Kit 1963-77 - Stock Upgrade, Part#: 42001
  1.125" front Addco anti-sway bar kit
  460 lb/in powder coated coil springs
  KYB GR-2 shocks

Steering

• stock power steering system replaced with a Borgeson power steering box
• new rag joint

Brakes

• stainless-sleeved calipers, painted red
• stock replacement steel brake lines
• stainless braided brake hoses
• stainless park brake hardware and lines

Drivetrain

• aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, possibly dual electric fans
• mildly built 350, shooting for min. 350 RWHP
  serpentine belt assembly
• stock rubber engine mounts
• dual exhaust with H-pipe and dual catalytic converters, whatever mufflers provide that deep American-muscle rumble
• Q-jet rebuilt by Lars or Cliff
• TH200-4R conversion (currently THM350)
• stock rubber transmission mount
• stock rubber differential carrier mounting bracket (snubber) bushing (per Mike Ward)
• stock rubber differential crossmember bushings (per Mike Ward)
• rear gears in whatever ratio will help get good gas mileage. Decent performance is a nice second. (Currently have 3.08 and have been told that'll be fine.)

Rear Suspension

• stock rubber trailing arm bushings (per Mike Ward)
• stock strut rods with stock rubber bushings
• VBP Grand Touring Kit 1963-77 - Stock Upgrade, Part#: 42001
  0.750" front Addco anti-sway bar kit
  9-leaf steel spring and leaf spring hardware kit
  KYB GR-2 shocks

Fuel System

• stainless fuel lines
• all new rubber lines and seals
• refurbish sending unit: replace if necessary
• sandblast and powder coat gas tank silver

Body
Birdcage

• repair rust as required
  windshield frame needs attention
• paint with rust-inhibitor paint
• thermal remediation at firewall, under floor pans and trans tunnel

Exterior

• electric headlamp actuators
• stubby radio antenna
• remove factory alarm remnants, patch fender hole
• install missing factory front air dam/spoiler
• screen over valence openings
• replace mirrors with chrome OEM mirrors: patch screw holes
• clean up and match body lines
• close up door gaps
• close up t-top gaps
• paint factory 1976 Red
• paint bumperettes black, as factory correct
• recondition/reuse original windshield, rear glass and windows
• new weather-stripping everywhere
• replace L-82 badges with correct L-48 badges

Interior

• replace current incorrect fiberglass floor pans with correct steel pans
• coat pans for rust-prevention
• thermal remediation at firewall, on floor pans and trans tunnel
• factory-correct replacement dual-retractor seatbelts - black
• factory replacement black cut-pile carpet kit
• rebuild tilt-tele steering column
• VintageAir A/C system
• Shiftworks kit to display gears correctly and allow manual hold of 1st gear
• classic-looking radio w/ front aux input for phone or MP3 player
• new front dash speakers, add kick-panel speakers, add rear speakers, sub and amps.
• Quartz clock conversion

Electrical

• complete wiring harness replacement from Willcox or Lectric Limited

That's everything, taking into account all the advice you fine folks provided. Anyone have anything else to add?

mac79vette

Take a look at my thread.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-g...post1587341846

My build is some what similar, it may give you some ideas.

Do use the rubber body mounts, but as far as the control arms I have had both the rubber and the poly bushings. The poly handles better but although they are firmer I don't think there are harsh. In a unibody car poly will feel harsh.

I like my borgeson box, the increased gear ratio is nice and it gives good road feel. I thought about rack and pinion but know some one that the inner hemi joint failed on his year old steeroids rack and wrecked his car. Also you have a bit of a decrease in Turing radius. But it was still a hard decision on what to do, I do like that the borg box some what looks like it was normally there on the car for the factory.

I did stainless fuel and brake lines. Had problems with the SS brake lines on the flairs sealing, took some rework. Did use 3/8 fuel main and return so its there for fuel injection way down the road.

I used bilstein shocks, I feel they are entry level good quality shocks. High end shocks are hundreds of $ per shock. Also I highly recommend a composite rear spring, but that may be in the Vette brakes kit you have listed. I used there duel mount composite spring.

I have used vintage air on three different vehicles. It is cold and is easy to install. I will not be using it on my vette or any other vehicle that has factory air. Every vintage air units I have used the heaters were under sized, also I do not like that you do not have a provision to bring in outside air into the a/c system.