ed427vette

I don't remember the food. Big Al's is good stuff.
I have all my pics on my old PC but I just sent one over to myself to post here. Its behind the Sunoco.

I also remember some of the racing stories. The owner said something that I found really noteworthy and it relates to the Sunoco car. The Sunoco car has unusual rear fenders, not typical factory. In those days you were not allowed to use anything other than a factory body on the race cars. But you couldn't fit big tires on a C2. So the Sunoco car had a modifies body line that looked correct but wasn't. I have a bunch of pics of the fenders. I took them because I build very high detail model cars and needed the pics of small little details to make the body correctly. But what he told me was that before the fender mod what guys were doing with there C2 race cars was they would crash them into each other gently to open up the fenders to put on bigger tires. Amazing.

Here is a pic from the show. The ZL1 is behind the Sumoco.

ed427vette

Hello Ken,

I am not too worried. I have a hard time believing anyone will be able to get any judge to issue a gag order on me, let alone level any charges on to me that I'm ruining the value of a car with reckless statements or something like that. If so good luck.

What's the saying? Its not liable/slander if its true? I'm not saying its true or real or fake or anything in any way shape or form. But I am saying what I recall from that day as I remember it as true.

I could see something like an intimidation letter being sent. I've had those before. I was involved in a very litigious line of work years ago, I'm not afraid of lawsuits or courtrooms.

Besides, I am not saying the car is not a ZL1 or that I'm sure the tank sticker is a repro. All I'm saying is that I will relay the story as I remember it about the car that day. I can't stress that enough. And the possibility exists I could have misunderstood or remembered it wrong. Maybe he was saying he put the motor BACK in the car. I really was not as interested in the car at the time as I was in the race cars and his stories. I was first interested in the ZL1 as it had GULF livery and I was unfamiliar with any Corvettes with Gulf oil. I am a big GT40 fan (I know, Ford, its kinda sacraligous on a GM site like this) and they had a bunch of Gulf race cars in the 60's. Thats how the whole thing got started. As for the paperwork, if I can see it up close I can determine if it was at least printed on a 1403. Other than that its unusual on its own.

Thank you Ken for your statement. Its important to question everything anyway. Fraud is rampant. I hope the car is real. Either way it doesn't matter to me as it is still a nice car regardless.

TCracingCA

The orange car has been running around longer than 20 years! It was thought to be a fake, when it came up on my radar!

I have been working on other research lately and working on building a Formula car lately, before getting back to the Corvettes, but there were about 5-6 ZL-1 prototypes, and you have things like 1974 Zora's Road Racer too!

To help my memory, what was the delivery dealership for that Orange car Vin number? I have that all somewhere in my vast literature and unorganized note collection!

And Ed, thanks for selling me cool stuff every now and then over a very long span of years! Our collections must be very similar in areas, unless you have sold it all to guys like me!

I was around the white ZL-1 a lot back when my Father's long term friend Otis owned it. Sat in it a number of times, before getting a ride in it!

I I probably have every article on the yellow one, to include when it was a victim of drugs!! Going back further than when it was seized!

TCracingCA

I already figured out that I have more Corvette literature, racing records, rare Corvette information than over 99% of the NCRS and Corvette Race Car Registry guys! Maybe more than 100% of them! I will help defend you and ruin their day!
But Gulf sponsorship was on Corvettes, way prior to being on any Fords!!!!!!!!

ed427vette

Thank you.
I still have too many collectible things......
You are correct on the gulf sponsorship, I should have said, I was not familiar with it on a C3.

Otis had a huge collection. You are fortunate to have been in the white ZL1! Your father had some influential friends!

Thanks again,
Ed

emccomas

Here is a picture of the sales order for the orange car, and a picture of the orange car's engine pad as is sat on the show field at Bloomington. The window sticker is a repo.

Also note that the Kustom off road headers AND the 4:11 rear axle setup are listed as dealer installed items. The rear axle installed at the factory was a 3:36 ratio.

emccomas

And the car that was traded in on the orange 69 ZL-1. A 68 L-88 convertible.

VIN: 194678S410937
Motor #: T0923IT

emccomas

Now, on the yellow ZL-1.

The VIN of that car is: 194379S729219.

The ad appeared in Hemmings Motor News, September 2009, page 380.

ALUMINUM big block, ZL1 (bare), #3946052, this is an original 1969 427 block used in a 1969 Corvette, front pad reads TO73IME, VIN 19S729219; does anyone know who may need this for their 1969 ZL1 Corvette? Please call me, time to clean out the garage. 310-329-XXXX, CA.

The last four digits of phone number obscured by me.

I saw a similar ad where this block was listed as damaged, and the asking price was $20K.

I judged the engine of the yellow 69 ZL-1 at Cypress Gardens when it was owned by Ed Mueller. The engine pad on that car was beautiful, pristine, and the casting date of the block fit the car well.

The last I heard, all of the paperwork for that car disappeared when the federal marshalls arrested the owner Richard Lynn. Lynn is serving a life sentence, and the car was seized and auctioned off. The car was bought by Roger Judski of Maitland, FL as the car remains in his collection.

TCracingCA

No just one Otis Chandler! He (my Dad) was a direct mail marketing guy and was the intermediary between business wanting to advertise and how and where they did that! Therefore the Los Angeles Times newspaper was almost a weekly or bi-weekly visit! My Father used his Corvettes as his on equal ground as a car guy, to do projects for the Parnelli Jones, Carrol Shelby's, Firestone, Goodyear, and actual had accounts with them and a 100 racers or shops or better put service outfits like Bear Alinement, Service Centers and so many more! But Otis and him went to lunch in the cars all of the time! My Father driving a metallic flaked drag mod 64 Coupe with dual snorkel hood over a cross ram then lime green metallic later, then bought the Dana Chevrolet custom dealership modded C3 from Dale Armstrong! Otis got us the VIP access at the Times sponsored races at Riverside and Ontario Motor! Part of what caused the creation of me!

TCracingCA

i will casually do some looking back in time, but unless I have my ten million Corvette memories since following our cars since going with Dad to the car lots in the 1960's mixed up in my brain, I don't remember this car originally having all of this wonderful now perfect documentation and that is why it was known for years and years as a controversial car! I could make that tank sticker with extreme difficulty, and the sales invoice really easily!!!!!!

And it has been at least 15 to 20 years since I have read anything about the latest and greatest on this particular car! And I can be wrong about my thoughts! I have slammed the $hit out of a number of cars and people to reverse my opinion! But these guys ability to magically find this type of stuff is truly magic! I have seen plenty of questionable cars grow rock solid pedigrees with this crowd of latest and greatest finds to impress the crowd!

PS Otis's white car had some questionable providence also!

Even though I own a C3 in addition to my favorite C2s, I tend to favor unlocking the deep mysteries of the C2sI am more of a C2s and I even rarely come onto C3! Usually when I role around to visiting C3, I am a born again noob usually!
Production of two is quite a problem when three cars are running around! I haven't tried to track the different cars per se that got used for testing! Like the 454 aluminum block experiments going into 1970, the early one was a 1969 starting with a 427! I like the hybrid stuff,!

if someone can point me to a year of first appearance, I do have just about every Corvette mag known to mankind in my house!

The last C3 research project was the Greenwood relationship to Briggs Chevrolet and his 1973 5-link work prior to Riley that CVC-Apex ran off with! His first Corvette true speed equipment catalog 1972 that I have! ! His selling product to the other racers and shops like Guldstrands! Basically how the racers were getting built with what HD parts in the 1968, 69 years!

emccomas

ZL-1 contender's status:

1. WHITE COUPE, ex Otis Chandler collection, currently part of the Kevin Suydam collection - car has no documentation other than statements from the original owner.

May be an original ZL-1 car, but no real documentation to back up this assertion.

2. YELLOW COUPE, ex Wayne Walker, ex Ed Meuller, ex Richard Lynn, currently part of the Roger Judski collection.

The consensus among knowledgeable enthusiasts is that this car is a real ZL-1 car. However, there may be questions about the originality of the engine currently in the car. There is another ZL-1 engine with a damaged block that has the same VIN derivative as this car. This other block has been listed for sale.

The history of the car indicates that the original engine was damaged early in the car's life, and it was replaced with another ZL-1. The original ZL-1 MAY have been installed in a race boat at some time.

The original paperwork for this car apparently disappeared when the car was siezed by the US Marshalls from Richard Lynn (and subsequently auctioned off to Roger Judski). There is some indication that Richard Lynn knows where the paperwork is, but refuses to divulge that information.

There was at one time a tank sticker still attached to a 69 vintage gas tank (out of the car). This tank sticker was in very good condition, but it did not display the characteristics of paper that was printed on IBM track drive dot matrix printers, which were used during that time frame to print tank stickers for 1969 Corvettes.

3. ORANGE CONVETRIBLE - ex John Maher. This car was purchased by John Maher and used for drag racing. Stripes were added to the car to reflect Gulf Oil sponsorship.

The car was raced with a different engine; the original ZL-1 was reportedly removed and stored safely.

The car was sold, and then restored to original condition. Bloomington judging team had issues with the originality of the engine in the car as displayed on the show field.

The original sales paperwork lists the Motor Number as T0828MG (MG = ZL-1 engine, automatic transmission engine code.) When the car was displayed at Bloomington, the engine Motor Number was T1022MG. Based on monthly production figures, this car was manufactured in December, 1968. The engine listed on the sales order was assembled on August 28th, 1969. The engine in the car when displayed at Bloomington was assembled on October 22nd, 1968.

The tank sticker for this car does not display the characteristics of paper that was printed on IBM track drive dot matrix printers, which were used during that time frame to print tank stickers for 1969 Corvettes.

There are also rumors that more than one tank sticker exists for this car, and that the different tank stickers have different information on them. Questions still remain about how a ZL-1 option would be correctly listed on a tank sticker. Two possibilities have been suggested:

1. The engine option is listed on one line as:
02ZL1AA Engine: Super Turbo-Jet 427

2. The engine option is listed on two lines as
02L88AA Engine: Super Turbo-Jet 427
02ZL1AA Cylinder Case, Aluminum

So, which of these, if any, are real ZL-1 Corvettes? Which of these, if any, have their original engines? Who knows.

TCracingCA

Your research is good and you share! Anyone that has watched or followed my process, it is pretty chaotic and results could come in minutes or years! Then my interests wanders or wains! Sometimes I just can't find what I know I have! But if I can stick with a car, then my learning or caughting up to the expert on it can at times surprise the experts!

My my memory on Whitey is that it also had the former Dealership Owner relate how he had it ordered or how he acquired it!

God I actually am admittedly senile on the C3s having lived in C2 world too much!

TCracingCA

Based on where we are, I would tend to give first place now to Yellow car being real, second to Whitey and last to the Orange one!

When I was hanging out with Whitey, it was with the 1967 White L88 Coupe I think, so that was a long time ago!

I do do somewhere have a color picture or two of the ZL-1 test fleet cars! The key word is somewhere!!!!!!

TCracingCA

Ok the quick look didn't work! Instead I came up with a small pile of stuff like some of the European shipped L-88s to Jo Siffert and German guy Akim Homberg! And then phony now L88s like Vern Brown and his used to be 327/350hp! Ron Felton gutted out car, now an L88, etc etc etc etc

I I have the article of the first ZL-1 fitted into a Shadow!

TCracingCA

Cool finding all kinds of cool stuff in plastic sleeves in notebooks that I didn't know I had! Being senile is full of wonderful new discoveries! Found article about Bob Clift thrashing competition 1966 L88s at the proving grounds! And Ralph Johnson driving Conpetition 1966 silver L88 Coupe test vehicle #66065 topping out at 170mph, then taking off mufflers and ducted fresh air to get it to 183 mph!

Oh ya, the special Competition car back door program was called (code named) The Buyer's Key Pass"! Roger would walk in and say he was there for the Buyer's Key Pass instead of saying out loud, where the heck is the L88! That racing ban really caused some strange $hit!

emccomas

One point about the Orange convertible...

A ZL-1 engine stamped with the information that was indicated on the sales form (T0828MG) has not yet been located or seen by the general public.

The engine may exist, but there is no proof of it at this point.

Also, the pad surface of the engine that is in the Orange car (stamped T1022MG) has some "issues".

The pad of the engine that is currently in the yellow car is "beautiful".

ed427vette

OK!!!
Very good. Very well done JV04.
So in all fairness to the orange car, the original owner COULD have been talking about putting the old, original motor back in the car when speaking to us. I can live with that.

The orange engine pad would have me fooled. It has good fonts for the vin stamp. Lots of restamps have a slightly different 7, bad 4s and 3s but this looks pretty good. I would not know about the pad itself or what to expect on an aluminum pad surface. However, the dicrepency with the date stamp on the pad would actually not bother me as much simply because the sales invoice is not a GM item but one filled out by a dealer where human error can occur and a incorrect date could be typed in. You would think a fake dealer invoice is easy to make as there is no consistency such as on the GM printers and the fakers would be careful about getting the engine date stamp correct. So, I couldn't alone make that conclusive to discount the car yet. The tank sticker missing the axle info in the above field and having it two times below is an issue with me and apparently there are other issues with it when the cars was judged.

What a terrible situation with the yellow car. Original paperwork might be out there but out of reach at the moment. That is something.

Great stuff. Thanks for all the contributions and pics.

Big Block 69

The White car was featured in a Muscle Car Magazine in March of 1986. The writer said what was confusing was that the tank sticker said L88 at a cost of 1032.14.(no mention of ZL-1) It was bought "as a new car" from a broker with about 9000 miles on it. The article said that anything could have happened in that 9000 miles and they guessed that "something" did happen and the ZL-1 was installed at that time.
The Orange car has also been in many magazines. One article said the first owner did hill climb type racing and was contacted by the dealership which had the car. The article said that since the car had a ZL-1 with an automatic, the gentleman traded his 68 L88 in on it.
The Yellow car has been in several magazines. Several articles state that there is paper work dating back to when it was ordered by a Chevrolet Executive as his company car.

emccomas

I seem to recall that the previous owner of the yellow car that is now enjoying an all expense paid vacation in a federal penal institution offered to sell or otherwise provide the paperwork for the yellow car in exchange for money or some assistance in helping him get out of prison.

His letter was posted in one of the car magazines a while back.

emccomas

I used to have pictures of the engine pad in the yellow car. That pad had brooch marks like we would expect to see on a cast iron block.

The pad on the orange car as displayed at Bloomington almost looked polished.