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The yellow car to me has moved to first place, the white car to second and the orange is trailing the pack!
I was was looking into the West Penn garage and zone/dealership codes just out of curiosity as a sideline while just casually looking to find the old literature! I should have most of the articles and the stuff on the yellow car! The Government auction notice etc.
That building built 1922 as a one story! West Penn garage filed business license in 1964. The location at one time was called Rainbow Chevrolet/Oldsmobile. I found a hit on Code 13 Dealership 87 coming up different than West Penn! The business is and has been in the more modern a flooring outfit, which has no effect on the timeline!
Guys will dispute this, but I found that they didn't tend to build the majority of the high horsepower models naturally with the 3.36 or those usually always have the auto tranny so fine, but those units were modified for the application of backing an L88, so I would think the same to be done for a ZL-1! The white car was really hard hitting on the shifts! Those were usually ordered! This car on the issue prone tank sticker indicates 3.36! The receipt would indicate dealer changed to 4.11 along with the aftermarket headers! Fronting a 4.11 with an M40 was pretty usually a drag race thing, and not remotely ideal for anything that will be going around turns! If the car was ordered, it would have come with the factory installed with side pipes and the buyer preferred option rear axle! What appears here, is the outfit probably dealer traded for the closest car they could find that met what the buyer wanted! Thus fabricating a West Penn window sticker is more than likely a total ignorant move in the modern.
I find it unusual to climb under the car to get a transmission number! I find it troubling that the sales invoice is even typed! Most of the Dealership ones I see usually are rarely typed, but the features being paid for are hand written! The typist was lousy at it! Also you can see where someone was rolling the alignment for some lines, when someone just would have busted it out. I find it suspicious that every box and field is filled out! And on and on! Even the tank sticker it looks like one of those classic distressed done ones! The fact that it received so much exposure to have so much of it gone, but the key info is mostly left perfectly legitable, just enough so to not cause controversy. Ya there would have been bad looking pieces left of the rest of the document and the typed areas left looked inconsistently weathered! Most I have been around kind of have a fur feel to the paper and they are fragile as hell! Touch it wrong and pieces come apart! I also love the big burn area or super distressed for effect area! When I see those, I go Oh boy!!! So what is the extra charge for that, and is that recommended by these Companies! I love the ones where they make a distressed hole! I have seen that done by these guys doing these! Plus went thru a lot of work to replicate engine stamps. It would have been more pure to not Doctor further! These perfectionist types, just can't leave well enough alone!
I had zero time to hunt for those oldest articles! I was out this weekend buying a top Corvette guys remaining memorabilia collection! He started in about 1970 and was President of two of the top clubs here in Socal! I filled a few gaps for me on his club and competition histories! Fun for me! 80 year old guy, but I have been a Corvette guy longer than him! I was hoping for something of a collection closer to what I have and took a lot of money, but disappointed to an extent, even though I acquired some cool items! So no time for research this weekend on this topic. I also will be able to see if the SCCA Hillclimb competition claim by the original owner is bull or not! Pulling out my SCCA magazine collection from the 1950's to 2000 is a pain, where I put them. It hurts my bum arm to lift them over the Elco project.
I personally think this was a built car!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 12-05-2016 at 07:02 PM.
The story on the orange car, and I got this from the original owner, was that the car was ordered specifically for drag racing, under Gulf Oil sponsorship.
West Penn Garage was the local Chevy dealer in that area at that time. The wife of a good friend of the original owner worked at the dealership. The friend was able to order a 69 Z/28 with a stripe delete AND in the 1965 factory color of Evening Orchid. That Z/28 was recently discovered and restored to factory original condition.
Back to the orange car, the owner ordered the car with the automatic, and Chevrolet did not want to build it. It took intervention from Gulf Oil executives to get a ZL-1 automatic car built.
Now, I not saying the car is or is not real, but I do believe that this dealer was capable of handling an order like this. I think is was the same dealer that ordered the 68 L-88 car that was used as a trade in on the orange car.
The real mystery on this orange car is the rumors about the number of tank stickers that have shown up at one time or another, and with different information on them.
I don't know the whole story, and suspect that we may never find out for sure.
Given the questions that surround all three ZL-1 cars, I would go for the yellow car, and go buy that extra engine that has the same VIN derivative on it.
The ZL-1 option required additional options. Those additional options were:
L88
K66
F41
J56
G81
Radio and A/C not available with ZL-1 (just like with L88).
Given these required options, I would expect a correct tank sticker for this car to say something like:
02ZQ4AA Trim STANDARD TRIM
02L88AA Engine SUPER TURBO-JET 427 V8
Air Con.
02K66BA Transistor Ign. FULL-TRANSISTOR IGNITION
Axle
02M40AD Transmission TURBO HYDRA-MATIC
Tires
02C05AA Conv. Top CONVERTIBLE TOP BLACK
Aux. Top
Radio
Comfort & Con.
02A01BA SOFT-RAY TINTED GLASS
02A82ZF HEAD RESTRAINTS
02F41AB SPECIAL-PURPOSE SUSPENSION
02G81YA POSITRACTION AXLE 336 RATIO
02J50WA POWER BRAKES
02J56AB SPECIAL BRAKE SYSTEM
02ZL1AA ALUMINUM CYLINDER CASE
02990AA MONACO ORANGE
Note that the L88 engine option is specified separate from the ZL1 aluminum cylinder case (block).
This will always be a point of debate, since I don't expect to ever see another ZL1 tank sticker.
Also note that the Identification number in the upper left hand corner of the tank sticker is missing. We could tell a lot about this car if we had that number.
It seems little changes in collectibles. Where the price precludes sanity there is always someone willing to commit forgery .
When I was hot and heavy into WWII pistols a master forger out of Holland forged a Walther PPK in gold wash with the AH initials on the grips. This subject inserted the supporting documentation that it belonged to the Fuhrer in the Berlin Archives. Figure that one out.
This subject sold the pistol at auction and split. It was discovered after the auction at some point to be a forgery. Interpol was also looking for him for a forged Rembrandt he sold at a previous auction some time before. Google Hitler's Walther ppk at auction and the story should pop up.
His work obviously was top notch.
He vaporized after these sales and resurfaces occasionally.
Don't think it doesn't happen here folks.
Just sayin.
Long time collector......Collecting is still collecting.
Marshal
I am still going to see what more could be found on the Dealership,but you have some good stuff on this Orange car!
I still like the orange car, regardless of what my thoughts are! I still am keeping an open mind!
I do know a few L88s were swapped out for ZL-1 engines and one went to Europe! I have all of the catalogs from Nickey, Berger, Briggs, and Motion so I can easily find when they were being sold from the Performance dealership network!
Even if we find out that it is still a questionable car, it is still fun to research stuff! I wish I could quit my job, and lay out the complete history on this type of stuff!
I do not like either of those documents! I want to locate more on that Garage!
Last edited by TCracingCA; 12-05-2016 at 11:11 PM.
Also note that the Identification number in the upper left hand corner of the tank sticker is missing. We could tell a lot about this car if we had that number.
I didn't think the Ident number or order number could tell you anything except that they are connected to a particular VIN. From what I understand those numbers can be found on the NICB report as well as the shipper documents that NCRS uses to "verify" paperwork. The main problem is that if you have those numbers from your original tank stock/order copy then you can make a repro and insert any options you like as no records are supposed to exist containing options but the control numbers will match the vin on the reports.
The order number, as you probably know, comes from the 4 part order form the dealer initially submits for the car. The dealership will have a pad or loose sets that all will have the same first 3 digits (usually letters in 1969) and then the last three numbers are different. After 999 for the last 3 then it starts with three different first digits. I have a pile of 1969 corvette paperwork from a dealership in California with the order forms filled out in successive order. Its interesting. They are complete files with all different forms. i am trying to find some of the cars. i know one of them is out there and sold sometime around 2009. But to get back on track, the ident number is all over the place. No order or pattern I can figure out for that one. It literally jumps all around.
As for the dealer invoices. I have lots of original invoices from many dealerships for all kinds of Chevys. They are mostly typed. I know they are original as they are for cars nobody cares about such as station wagons, 4 doors, 6 cylinders all kinds of junk. Some were given to me by the owners before the junked the cars. Its hard to get a typical invoice as anything goes with them.
The one hand written form you see the most is the retail order form. Its just another form that has all the same info as the invoice but I think its filled out before the buyer buys the car them the invoice is done when the buyer pays for the car... Maybe, not really sure but it seems most likely. I have seen them typed also.
I have a pretty good sized collection of GM documents for all different Chevys.
I didn't think the Ident number or order number could tell you anything except that they are connected to a particular VIN. From what I understand those numbers can be found on the NICB report as well as the shipper documents that NCRS uses to "verify" paperwork. The main problem is that if you have those numbers from your original tank stock/order copy then you can make a repro and insert any options you like as no records are supposed to exist containing options but the control numbers will match the vin on the reports.
The order number, as you probably know, comes from the 4 part order form the dealer initially submits for the car. The dealership will have a pad or loose sets that all will have the same first 3 digits (usually letters in 1969) and then the last three numbers are different. After 999 for the last 3 then it starts with three different first digits. I have a pile of 1969 corvette paperwork from a dealership in California with the order forms filled out in successive order. Its interesting. They are complete files with all different forms. i am trying to find some of the cars. i know one of them is out there and sold sometime around 2009. But to get back on track, the ident number is all over the place. No order or pattern I can figure out for that one. It literally jumps all around.
As for the dealer invoices. I have lots of original invoices from many dealerships for all kinds of Chevys. They are mostly typed. I know they are original as they are for cars nobody cares about such as station wagons, 4 doors, 6 cylinders all kinds of junk. Some were given to me by the owners before the junked the cars. Its hard to get a typical invoice as anything goes with them.
The one hand written form you see the most is the retail order form. Its just another form that has all the same info as the invoice but I think its filled out before the buyer buys the car them the invoice is done when the buyer pays for the car... Maybe, not really sure but it seems most likely. I have seen them typed also.
I have a pretty good sized collection of GM documents for all different Chevys.
I could post things if anyone is interested.
Maybe the ones I like are handwritten!!.
I have mine from Don Steves Chevrolet, but the car was sold used! I have a newly sold 427/425hp from Baher Chevrolet handwritten and then assortment of others, but not many! Maybe it was a dealer by dealer thing! I interchange the terms sales agreement and sales invoice! So you would have been sitting there making the deal, where you were saying what you were wanting to pay or should pay and the guy was scribbling away and circling things, adding figures, and when he thinks the deal is done, flips it to you to sign! But on this West Penn thing, the Rear axle change and the headers would have been the type of thing added and normally hand written in. I could see some dealerships getting inventory and they pre-type a sales invoice! In the slam bam action of selling cars, and closing a deal to get a signature and be done! I can't see the volume dealers having you sit there while a gal types one up! The buyer might get cold feet and walk! Or start thinking about what he is about to pay! I could see also the knowledge the typist would have to have to put info in the right box, not that a trained gal won't quickly gain knowledge about cars! The modern ones are almost always typed now! I am talking the 60s! I do have a whole bunch of them in my photo library, so I will go look! I don't want to put out bad info or thoughts on how it all went down! !
Last edited by TCracingCA; 12-06-2016 at 12:31 AM.
I think I have a written out invoice from Malcolm Connor. They had there own special invoices printed up also, not like the standard, cookie cutter Reynolds and Reynolds form.
The definitions of the forms do get muddled. The Retail Order forms I have can get sometimes a little messy and crossed out. This is the one that says the "order is not official until signed by salesman" or something like that. Many of these were the standard form but some dealers had special ones made up for them with there address printed. The variation in forms is interesting to me.
As for the orange cars's invoice, to me what was odd was the "paid in full" was typed in and not some "paid" stamp or even hand written. Most of the ones I have are either stamped or written in and then date stamped or even notorized. But its hard to go by that. The swapped parts is odd but that's beyond my knowledge of what they may have done. Also, the poster that mentions the print font may be on to something. Most were done with a IBM Selectric I or II with some font ball, usually courier, but they made lots of fonts. Hard to pick out those details consistently. However, the invoice in question does have the laser printer print look. The typewriters, even the expensive IBM's, which were the Cadillacs of the day, had a tendency to type out somewhat unevenly. I don't see that with this invoice.
Last edited by ed427vette; 12-06-2016 at 05:39 AM.
It seems little changes in collectibles. Where the price precludes sanity there is always someone willing to commit forgery .
When I was hot and heavy into WWII pistols a master forger out of Holland forged a Walther PPK in gold wash with the AH initials on the grips. This subject inserted the supporting documentation that it belonged to the Fuhrer in the Berlin Archives. Figure that one out.
This subject sold the pistol at auction and split. It was discovered after the auction at some point to be a forgery. Interpol was also looking for him for a forged Rembrandt he sold at a previous auction some time before. Google Hitler's Walther ppk at auction and the story should pop up.
His work obviously was top notch.
He vaporized after these sales and resurfaces occasionally.
Don't think it doesn't happen here folks.
Just sayin.
Long time collector......Collecting is still collecting.
Marshal
If there is enough money involved, anything and everything can and will be faked. Doesn't matter where if is cars, art work, weapons, coins, stamps, currency.
You know, it is kind of funny when you think about the three ZL-1 cars.
The white car has NO documentation.
The orange car has a bunch of documentation, but a lot of it is "questionable.
The yellow car has very little documentation (mostly just a well known history from new).
I would LOVE to see a sales order from from another car at West Penn Garage dated around the end of 1968. I would also love to see a good quality tank sticker from another Corvette build around the time the orange car was build.
Start with the edges of the paper. See those small "tabs" that are evenly spaced along the edge. That is a distinctive characteristic of track drive printer paper what was is use at that time for computers. Each page was perforated along all four edges, and separated along all four edges after it was printed.
It is very difficult to tell if the orange ZL-1 tank sticker has any of the "tabs" on it from the picture in the magazine, but my guess is no.
There is actually a market for blank original track drive paper from that era.
I am also interested in the axle ratio line on this April tank sticker.
I know the 69 tank sticker changed during the model year, but I don't know if this was one of the changes. Both of these cars are big block cars, so I would expect the same information for the same axle ratio.
The April tank sticker has the Axle info on the pre-printed line as 02G81HA POSITRACTION AXLE 336RA. This tank sticker also has axle info repeated under the Comfort & Con. section as 02GS3AA POSITRACTION AXLE 336R
The orange ZL-1 car has noting in the pre printed Axle line, and has the axle info twice under the Comfort & Con. section
??????? ???????????? AXLE 336 R
??????? ???????????? ?XL? 336 RATIO
None of this is conclusive,; it just adds to the list of questions about this orange car.
I know the 69 tank sticker changed during the model year, but I don't know if this was one of the changes. Both of these cars are big block cars, so I would expect the same information for the same axle ratio
The factory went on strike a day or two after my car was built. They took the opportunity to change other things during the time off. I believe the side exhaust option was eliminated around the same time.
Here is a picture of the tank sticker from car 712871. Its one of mine. The car has been sitting since 1978 in a garage in San Diego. Its still attached to the tank and very clean. I think the trim tag says Jan 11th or 13th, I don't have a pic of that on my iPad and don't remember off the top of my head.
The only change in tank stickers that I am aware of occurred in Sept of 69 when the new model started across the entire chevy line....except for corvette and camaro. I know precisely what changes occurred. I have pics of those. They also occurred on window stickers at the same time.
Last edited by ed427vette; 12-06-2016 at 11:46 AM.
I am also interested in the axle ratio line on this April tank sticker.
I know the 69 tank sticker changed during the model year, but I don't know if this was one of the changes. Both of these cars are big block cars, so I would expect the same information for the same axle ratio.
The April tank sticker has the Axle info on the pre-printed line as 02G81HA POSITRACTION AXLE 336RA. This tank sticker also has axle info repeated under the Comfort & Con. section as 02GS3AA POSITRACTION AXLE 336R
The orange ZL-1 car has noting in the pre printed Axle line, and has the axle info twice under the Comfort & Con. section
??????? ???????????? AXLE 336 R
??????? ???????????? ?XL? 336 RATIO
None of this is conclusive,; it just adds to the list of questions about this orange car.
The axle line is the biggest problem for me as I stated in earlier posts. Other years had that format, not 69. I have seen that mistake on other fake tank stickers for 69s but not for real ones.
I can also show you tank stickers from cars just before and just after the vin of the orange car. I just showed you mine as I have it on my device. The other stickers I have on my home PC. I can also show the differences in the two stickers as well as the differences in the window stickers and I have it very narrowed down to the VIN of when they both switched. Eventually I might even get it down to the very car in which they changed.
Here is a picture of the tank sticker from car 712871. Its one of mine. The car has been sitting since 1978 in a garage in San Diego. Its still attached to the tank and very clean. I think the trim tag says Jan 11th or 13th, I don't have a pic of that on my iPad and don't remember off the top of my head.
The only change in tank stickers that I am aware of occurred in Sept of 69 when the new model started across the entire chevy line....except for corvette and camaro. I know precisely what changes occurred. I have pics of those. They also occurred on window stickers at the same time.
Look at those beautiful track printer "nubs". Just exactly what I would expect to see of a REAL tank sticker.
One thing that appears to be missi9ng is the Convertible top info
Something like 02C05AA CONVERTIBLE TOP WHITE (OR BLACK). I don't suppose this was a hardtop only car?
YOU know, we really need an article (perhaps NCRS Restorer) about ther differences in factory original tank stickers during those early years.
The first tank stickers started in 1967. Perhaps an article that documents the styles and differences from 1968 to 1972 would be a good starting point.
Anyone know if something like this has been done yet?
Look at those beautiful track printer "nubs". Just exactly what I would expect to see of a REAL tank sticker.
One thing that appears to be missi9ng is the Convertible top info
Something like 02C05AA CONVERTIBLE TOP WHITE (OR BLACK). I don't suppose this was a hardtop only car?
Great picture of a really nice tank sticker.
It was a hardtop only......that's the only thing I'm not happy about but if I waited to find every option I wanted I might never find one to buy. So I'll live with no soft top. Its a remarkably original car. The only thing not original I can find is the carb, the pipes were replaced, no spare and tires are white lines. Some paint was resprayed also.
12-04-2016, 09:12 PM
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