I need help--70 454 oil pressure issue
07-22-2006, 09:27 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
I need help--70 454 oil pressure issue
Any one ever run across this-
I just rebuilt my 70 454 -fired it up and I have great oil pressure 70psi
cold 45 hot idle. but i am getting very little oil to my rockers and my lifters are not staying pumped up
, it clatters like i have solids with 60k clearance---
Things i have rechecked by second guessing myself-
---pulled the oil filter and made sure the filter adapeter check valve was not stuck.
---I have measured the distance to the oil passage in the distributor passage and verified it to the distributor legnth --thinking maybe it was sitting to low and having a pressure loss there.
---pulled the roller tip rockers off and reinstalled the stock ones.
---readjusted the valves from 1/2 turn to 3/4 turn.
---pulled the rear lifter closest to the distributor to check oil flow-using a drill to spin a fake dist to drive the oil pump it appears to be flowing out like a fire hose.seems addiquate to me.?
---I have installed a new lifter ( one with a .25 larger inlet and outlet hole in it ) in that position.
---I pulled #3 cyl ex lifter and spun the oil pump and with it removed still had 70psi-but it is passing all the other lifters.
---finally with no where to go but second guess myself i pulled the timming cover to verify the galley plugs were in place--yes they were--
--
the lower end seems to be oiling just fine -I can run the engine with the v/covers off and not even sray oil-at 2k rpm it just starts to slowly roll out of the push rods.--I can look in the valley at the cam and oil is flying all over in the lower end.
Any ideas before I have to yank this thing back out?
unit has high volume oil pump
unit has 20/50 castrol oil in it
GM performance hydrolic cam and lifters set
I just rebuilt my 70 454 -fired it up and I have great oil pressure 70psi
cold 45 hot idle. but i am getting very little oil to my rockers and my lifters are not staying pumped up
, it clatters like i have solids with 60k clearance---Things i have rechecked by second guessing myself-
---pulled the oil filter and made sure the filter adapeter check valve was not stuck.
---I have measured the distance to the oil passage in the distributor passage and verified it to the distributor legnth --thinking maybe it was sitting to low and having a pressure loss there.
---pulled the roller tip rockers off and reinstalled the stock ones.
---readjusted the valves from 1/2 turn to 3/4 turn.
---pulled the rear lifter closest to the distributor to check oil flow-using a drill to spin a fake dist to drive the oil pump it appears to be flowing out like a fire hose.seems addiquate to me.?
---I have installed a new lifter ( one with a .25 larger inlet and outlet hole in it ) in that position.
---I pulled #3 cyl ex lifter and spun the oil pump and with it removed still had 70psi-but it is passing all the other lifters.
---finally with no where to go but second guess myself i pulled the timming cover to verify the galley plugs were in place--yes they were--
--
the lower end seems to be oiling just fine -I can run the engine with the v/covers off and not even sray oil-at 2k rpm it just starts to slowly roll out of the push rods.--I can look in the valley at the cam and oil is flying all over in the lower end.
Any ideas before I have to yank this thing back out?
unit has high volume oil pump
unit has 20/50 castrol oil in it
GM performance hydrolic cam and lifters set
Last edited by 67tripower; 07-23-2006 at 12:28 AM.
07-23-2006, 12:45 AM
#3
Le Mans Master
You sure you got all the right galley plugs in the block? Sounds like something is preventing oil to the lifter bores. Just thinking out loud here. I have not personally ever had that problem.
07-23-2006, 01:41 AM
#4
Instructor
Thread Starter
All Galley Plugs Are In Place-i Even Pulled One Of The Front Ones Out Tonight And Spun The Oil Pump To See The Flow Out -but I Have Nothing To Compare It To-i Am Going To Hook Up A Manual Gauge To The Front Of The Lifter Galley Tomorrow To See Whar Pressure I Have There -
07-23-2006, 06:15 PM
#6
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When you were spinning it with the primer, did you seem to have a lot of oil coming out of lifter pushrod holes...in proportion to what you saw blowing through the gallery without a lifter?
Not familiar with the GM hyd roller lifters you have, but I'm assuming the oiling hole is drilled in the center recess cut around the lifter? It's not drilled in the "shiny polished" part of lifter body is it?
If it's coming out of the top of lifter OK, then we have to look at the pushrods, their length and the 'timing" that occurs with them. But i would doubt there is too much issue here.
Was it running before with these components or is this a completely new set up on a new block assy?
Any chance it's a 454 based on an early 427 or 396 block that used the different rear cam bearing and grooved cam? Any chance the new parts have that groove in rear journal and don't need it?
Any chance the rockers are bottoming on studs and pushrods are way too short? Maybe you aren't actually pushing plungers down into lifters? When you say you adjust them 1/4 turn..is that 1/4 turn AFTER they stop clicking? That should have them quiet...or do they never quieten down?
I'm thinking geometry issues here maybe...
Just narrowing down stuff.
JIM
Not familiar with the GM hyd roller lifters you have, but I'm assuming the oiling hole is drilled in the center recess cut around the lifter? It's not drilled in the "shiny polished" part of lifter body is it?
If it's coming out of the top of lifter OK, then we have to look at the pushrods, their length and the 'timing" that occurs with them. But i would doubt there is too much issue here.
Was it running before with these components or is this a completely new set up on a new block assy?
Any chance it's a 454 based on an early 427 or 396 block that used the different rear cam bearing and grooved cam? Any chance the new parts have that groove in rear journal and don't need it?
Any chance the rockers are bottoming on studs and pushrods are way too short? Maybe you aren't actually pushing plungers down into lifters? When you say you adjust them 1/4 turn..is that 1/4 turn AFTER they stop clicking? That should have them quiet...or do they never quieten down?
I'm thinking geometry issues here maybe...
Just narrowing down stuff.
JIM
07-23-2006, 08:41 PM
#7
Race Director
At idle there is very little oil coming out of the rockers, just a dribble, enough to keep the rocker oiled that's about it 
Last edited by MotorHead; 07-23-2006 at 09:32 PM.
07-23-2006, 09:15 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
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are you using a heavy weight oil? Try using 5w-30 and see if it helps with oils flow? Then add something like LUCAS oil stabilizer to add some weight to it... I had trhe same thing with my 350 and all seems fine now.... I originally used delo 15w-40 and saw the same issue you had.
Jim
Jim
07-23-2006, 11:58 PM
#9
Instructor
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by 427Hotrod
When you were spinning it with the primer, did you seem to have a lot of oil coming out of lifter pushrod holes...in proportion to what you saw blowing through the gallery without a lifter?
Not familiar with the GM hyd roller lifters you have, but I'm assuming the oiling hole is drilled in the center recess cut around the lifter? It's not drilled in the "shiny polished" part of lifter body is it?
If it's coming out of the top of lifter OK, then we have to look at the pushrods, their length and the 'timing" that occurs with them. But i would doubt there is too much issue here.
Was it running before with these components or is this a completely new set up on a new block assy?
Any chance it's a 454 based on an early 427 or 396 block that used the different rear cam bearing and grooved cam? Any chance the new parts have that groove in rear journal and don't need it?
Any chance the rockers are bottoming on studs and pushrods are way too short? Maybe you aren't actually pushing plungers down into lifters? When you say you adjust them 1/4 turn..is that 1/4 turn AFTER they stop clicking? That should have them quiet...or do they never quieten down?
I'm thinking geometry issues here maybe...
Just narrowing down stuff.
JIM
Not familiar with the GM hyd roller lifters you have, but I'm assuming the oiling hole is drilled in the center recess cut around the lifter? It's not drilled in the "shiny polished" part of lifter body is it?
If it's coming out of the top of lifter OK, then we have to look at the pushrods, their length and the 'timing" that occurs with them. But i would doubt there is too much issue here.
Was it running before with these components or is this a completely new set up on a new block assy?
Any chance it's a 454 based on an early 427 or 396 block that used the different rear cam bearing and grooved cam? Any chance the new parts have that groove in rear journal and don't need it?
Any chance the rockers are bottoming on studs and pushrods are way too short? Maybe you aren't actually pushing plungers down into lifters? When you say you adjust them 1/4 turn..is that 1/4 turn AFTER they stop clicking? That should have them quiet...or do they never quieten down?
I'm thinking geometry issues here maybe...
Just narrowing down stuff.
JIM
To answer in order-when running the oil pump primmer i cant get any oil from the push rods.
The lifters are not roller lifters -just regular flat bottom hydrolic-the cam shaft is a GM performance cam with hydrolic lifters.
The cam is the same part # cam shaft I used in a 427 eng. 3 yrs ago with no problems.
The components are new to this engine-I am doing a frame off resto on this car and the engine ran fine with no noises or concerns prior to dissasembly.
The eng cast date is march 31 1970--assmbly date May 1970.
I don't remember seeing a groove in the rear cam journal.
but i have been second guessing my self so much on this.
I have built alot of motors never with a problem.
The rockers arnt bottoming out and if you continue to tighten down they get to where they are making the eng miss but dosnt seem to affect the noise.
I pulled the rear lifter out again and spun the primer just to see the oil again-seems to have tremendus flow -but when the lifter is in and running the the primer no oil comes from the lifters with the push rod out.
It takes running at 2,000 rpms to even get a dribble out of the push rods to the rockers-not even close to what normal is
Last edited by 67tripower; 07-24-2006 at 12:02 AM.
07-24-2006, 12:21 AM
#10
Instructor
I'm sorry to hear of this continuing situation. SOmehow you got blockage of pressure to the lifters. Is there any way debris got into the oil passage going to the lifters and is blocking flow there? There's gotta be something in the passages in the lifter valley
I sure hope it ends up being something simple and you don't have to yank the motor back out.
Greg
I sure hope it ends up being something simple and you don't have to yank the motor back out.
Greg
07-24-2006, 12:43 AM
#11
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Ok...getting a clearer picture now.
BBC's oil down both lifter galleries. I assume it's happening on both sides.
I'd have to take one of the lifters apart to look at how it''s made. Are they genuine GM lifters? GM uses a lot of Johnston ones and they are very good. But there are some real funky stuff out there too. This isn't the first to have oiling issues.
You're Ok on cam groove, no groove.
Which cam are you using?
JIM
BBC's oil down both lifter galleries. I assume it's happening on both sides.
I'd have to take one of the lifters apart to look at how it''s made. Are they genuine GM lifters? GM uses a lot of Johnston ones and they are very good. But there are some real funky stuff out there too. This isn't the first to have oiling issues.
You're Ok on cam groove, no groove.
Which cam are you using?
JIM
07-24-2006, 12:50 AM
#12
Instructor
Thread Starter
Me too.
Yes it is happening on both sides
I'm not sure how to tell Johnsons from others put they came in a GM box.
I have taken one apart and checked it out-looks fine
Since I have been into second guessing myself and beings I had the timming cover and intake off I decided to slide the cam out far enough to see the rear journal--yes it is smooth -no groove-- the bearing is smooth and the oil hole is at 6 oclock.
I am beginning to think maybe I need to try the lighter oil and see what happens.
I have pulled the galley plugs and checked the passages-clear--
Yes it is happening on both sides
I'm not sure how to tell Johnsons from others put they came in a GM box.
I have taken one apart and checked it out-looks fine
Since I have been into second guessing myself and beings I had the timming cover and intake off I decided to slide the cam out far enough to see the rear journal--yes it is smooth -no groove-- the bearing is smooth and the oil hole is at 6 oclock.
I am beginning to think maybe I need to try the lighter oil and see what happens.
I have pulled the galley plugs and checked the passages-clear--
Last edited by 67tripower; 07-24-2006 at 12:56 AM.
07-24-2006, 10:08 AM
#13
Instructor
I had a similar situation with a 454. I noticed very little flow thru the pushrods and out of the rocker arm when priming the engine before I fired it the first time. I checked everything, just as you did, but I noticed what seemed like excessive leakage between the lifters and their bores. Much more oil was flowing out around the lifters than was coming thru the pushrods.
I decided my problem must have been out-of-round lifter bores, probably caused by a high-lift cam somewhere in the engine's past. BBC's have a strange valve train geometry that loads the lifters off-center and can cause severe eccentric wear in the bores.
GM sells sleeves that can be installed at high cost by only the most competent of machine shops, if that turns out to be your problem, and you wish to have it corrected.
I decided my problem must have been out-of-round lifter bores, probably caused by a high-lift cam somewhere in the engine's past. BBC's have a strange valve train geometry that loads the lifters off-center and can cause severe eccentric wear in the bores.
GM sells sleeves that can be installed at high cost by only the most competent of machine shops, if that turns out to be your problem, and you wish to have it corrected.
07-24-2006, 08:26 PM
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hmmm sounds like you have the GM HP (Piddle Valve) Lifters in there. I used a set with a Comp Cams 292 Magnum and had the same results you are telling me. They restrict upper end oil flow and prevent pump-up of the lifter....very good for High RPM and no valve float with good springs. Just my two cents. I'm going to see if I can find the P/N of them.....
Larry
Larry
07-24-2006, 08:36 PM
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Oh Yeah did you prime the lifters with oil 1st? To fill with oil, completely submerge each lifter upright into a container of oil and compress the inner plunger with a pushrod or screwdriver until the plunger is driven to the bottom of the lifter. Hold several seconds and release slowly. Repeat several times until the lifter is fully filled....Still looking for the GM P/N
Larry
Larry
07-24-2006, 09:01 PM
#16
Instructor
Let The Air Out - The Generation IV big block Chevy needs to have the front lifter oil gallery plugs modified by removing them and drilling a .030” hole in the center of the plug and then re-installing them. This hole will bleed off any air locked in the front of the galley oil passages. This air lock can cause the front lifters on both sides of the block to starve the oil supply up to the rocker arms, plus starving the lifters causing them to clatter.
GM started drilling the plugs in the late 70’s to early 80’s and produces a change bulletin to modify any older engines that were being rebuilt or had a complaint of dry lifters in the front of the engine. The oil that will now be coming out of these holes will also help lube the timing chain and gears as an added bonus
GM started drilling the plugs in the late 70’s to early 80’s and produces a change bulletin to modify any older engines that were being rebuilt or had a complaint of dry lifters in the front of the engine. The oil that will now be coming out of these holes will also help lube the timing chain and gears as an added bonus
07-24-2006, 09:47 PM
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Would this be the p/n?......GM/Melling P/N 5232720 ACDelco PN HL66, or in the set of 16 (p/n 12371044) GM's lifter foot and body are made from dissimilar materials joined by proprietary processes. Identify them by a distinct parting line or discoloration near the bottom of the lifter body. Federal Mogul HT-817R....also what does the retainer look like??...If round not the anti pump-up type...should be like a flat spiro-lock
Larry
Larry
Last edited by VetteLS6; 07-24-2006 at 10:18 PM.
07-27-2006, 01:51 AM
#19
Instructor
Thread Starter
I have been getting it back together over the last 2 nights-hopefully tomarrow night I can start it up-I drilled the galley plugs since i had it apart. I am going to put 5w30 in it to see if it will work-I will keep you informed tomarrow night
thanks
thanks
07-28-2006, 12:49 AM
#20
Instructor
Thread Starter
still not fixed
well its all together with 5w30 oil---it still makes noise--but does appear to have better oil flow accross the rockers-well atleast the one i can view through the oil filler hole----what now?---someone locally thinks I recieved a miss boxed camshaft and I have a solid rather than a hydrolic--what do you think?
he said to rap the throttle and see if it will hold a idle-if it won't then I have a solid cam in it-so I did that tonight after letting it run for 40 minutes trying to see if the noise would go away-
well after rapping the throttle -it died--
I'm at a loss
help if you can
thanks keith
by the way the Corvette parts book calls for the camshaft #3883986
for a 66-69 427 with hyd lifters
and 70 -72 454 with hyd lifters
and the cam kit with lifters is as follows:
GM PART # 12364055
CATEGORY: Engine Camshaft
DESCRIPTION: Performance BB Camshaft
Dual pattern, blueprinted replacemant for factory (p/n 3883986) 350 h.p. 396 cubic inch camshaft Technical Note: Basic RPM range is 1500-3800; cruise RPM at 60 MPH is 2600-3000; compression ratio 8.75 to 10.0 [int. 214 exh 218 at .050 duration/lift int .461 exh .480 with a 115 Lobe Center]
note I used this cam in my 67 400hp 427 with no issues -
maybe it is a bad cam?
he said to rap the throttle and see if it will hold a idle-if it won't then I have a solid cam in it-so I did that tonight after letting it run for 40 minutes trying to see if the noise would go away-
well after rapping the throttle -it died--
I'm at a loss
help if you can
thanks keith
by the way the Corvette parts book calls for the camshaft #3883986
for a 66-69 427 with hyd lifters
and 70 -72 454 with hyd lifters
and the cam kit with lifters is as follows:
GM PART # 12364055
CATEGORY: Engine Camshaft
DESCRIPTION: Performance BB Camshaft
Dual pattern, blueprinted replacemant for factory (p/n 3883986) 350 h.p. 396 cubic inch camshaft Technical Note: Basic RPM range is 1500-3800; cruise RPM at 60 MPH is 2600-3000; compression ratio 8.75 to 10.0 [int. 214 exh 218 at .050 duration/lift int .461 exh .480 with a 115 Lobe Center]
note I used this cam in my 67 400hp 427 with no issues -
maybe it is a bad cam?
Last edited by 67tripower; 07-28-2006 at 01:03 AM.