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Old 10-03-2007, 10:46 AM   #21
gkull
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Originally Posted by roscobbc View Post
I would have thought that a 'small block' 427 would always loose out ultimately against a big block 427 (or larger capacity) in the valve area. You will be limited by the bore diameter and spacing re. the use of bigger valves and inlet tracts.

What I said was: This guy wants to build a mild H-roller Al. block 427 BBC.

Then he said that he had a 427 small block. What would be gained?

Mild build - mild build

As for the above quote It's wrong thinking! You might be able to squeeze out an OZ more of power out of the big block of the same ci. But the draw backs are so many that you never see them in any kind of road or circle track racing. Or for that matter no big blocks in engine masters motor building contests have ever even been entered for 454 or less ci.
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:47 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by KyleDallas View Post
I think an Aluminum Block would be cool if you're committed that way...

I did notice the road racing mention so I thought I'd post my
engine weight link:

http://www.35pickup.com/mulligan/weight.txt

There's about 100lbs seperating the BBC and SBC..

I think with some work you could get a BBC into Iron SBC weight
without using an aluminum block...

1. Aluminum Heads
2. Aluminum Waterpump
3. Aluminum Manifold
4. Liteweight Starter
5. Liteweight Pulleys, Electric Plastic Fan, Liteweight Battery

I saved 15lbs on a battery swap... I found the original CCA's for
My old Dart's Heavy Group 24 Battery was only 350 CCA's...
So I installed a Honda type battery that was 15 lbs lighter and had 525 CCA's..

There are also several Sprint Car machinist who do Block Lightening
to both Small and BB Chevy's.... Block Lightening and the mods
above would put you under Iron Small Block weight.

Just thought I would post the Motor weights and suggestions in case
the weight issue was the critical factor vs. the Aluminum Block cool factor.

Good Luck regardless of which way you go.

Thanks Kyle...and there also a lot of weight that can be removed with different brake kits and suspension components up front.

I know that alloy big block is obviously a good chunk of change more than an iron BBC but I think its worth it for a number of good reasons
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Old 10-03-2007, 11:07 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by gkull View Post
What I said was: This guy wants to build a mild H-roller Al. block 427 BBC.

Then he said that he had a 427 small block. What would be gained?

Mild build - mild build

As for the above quote It's wrong thinking! You might be able to squeeze out an OZ more of power out of the big block of the same ci. But the draw backs are so many that you never see them in any kind of road or circle track racing. Or for that matter no big blocks in engine masters motor building contests have ever even been entered for 454 or less ci.
I saw your initial post that is now removed with all the icons telling me to gets my facts straight!

Arrogant people add nothing to this world.

Or here.

Here is an irrevocable law 'pride comes before a fall' so watch your step I guarantee you will fall.

Its amazing to see people like you judge anothers decisions and think they are so intelligent without knowing the facts.

I said I had been the 427 SB route before because even though I asked for ballpark costs on a alloy BBC someone suggested an big inch small block.

Past tense. My 427 sb was sold years ago.

Even if it wasn't if I want to build an alloy big block and keep it at 427 cid its none of your business. My preferences and there is nothing
about it.

This is still the USA, right?!

I asked for ballpark estimates on cost for an alloy BBC.

You don't have or want to give that info so save us your incredibly valuable knowledge about big inch small blocks, road racing and engine masters contests that I don't care about winning.

To all others with constructive info thank you for taking the time to post it.

Last edited by SeeThrees; 10-03-2007 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 10-03-2007, 03:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by gkull View Post
.....................................

As for the above quote It's wrong thinking! You might be able to squeeze out an OZ (How much?) more of power out of the big block of the same ci. But the draw backs (details, please) are so many that you never see them in any kind of road or circle track racing. Most all sanctioning bodies I'm familiar with have displacement limits (358-410 ballpark), essentially prohibiting big blocks in an effort to control speed. Or for that matter no big blocks in engine masters motor building contests have ever even been entered for 454 or less ci.
Who are these "engine masters", and why do we care? Depending on the sanctioning rules, you might not want one of these 500-600 cube engines. If there is a vehicle weight/engine displacement ratio for a particular class, the smaller engine would allow a lighter car, which will corner and brake faster, while also allowing the suspension components to survive easier. If the old unlimited Can-Am was still in existence, I could see the point of large engines. But frankly, on a streetable vehicle, with tire limitations, I don't see this issue as b&w as some posters do. The original poster is paying the bills, and I'm interested in seeing him build the car/engine he wants.
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Old 10-03-2007, 03:39 PM   #25
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Its not always about hp/$. Each person has their own reasons for doing whatever it is they choose. As long as an individual is informed of all the options its up to that person to decide.

427sb vs. 427bb.....who cares. I'd betcha that BB is alot less stressed and doesnt work anywhere near as hard as the sb.

Obviously it doesnt make sense to build a 427BB when you can build a 500+ for the same price but its not up to use its upto the OP.

To answer his question....it seems like it would cost $3-5,000 more than steel block.
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Old 10-03-2007, 03:50 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by 69427 View Post
Who are these "engine masters", and why do we care? Depending on the sanctioning rules, you might not want one of these 500-600 cube engines. If there is a vehicle weight/engine displacement ratio for a particular class, the smaller engine would allow a lighter car, which will corner and brake faster, while also allowing the suspension components to survive easier. If the old unlimited Can-Am was still in existence, I could see the point of large engines. But frankly, on a streetable vehicle, with tire limitations, I don't see this issue as b&w as some posters do. The original poster is paying the bills, and I'm interested in seeing him build the car/engine he wants.


Great points ... since I mentioned I don't need to go bigger than 427

I'm obviously not trying to win bragging rights at ANYTHING.

Like most of us here when we learned about the ultra rare 1969 ZL-1's, who didn't want one?!

This won't be one of 3 originals but it'll be close enough for me

Last edited by SeeThrees; 10-03-2007 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 10-03-2007, 03:52 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by jim2527 View Post
Its not always about hp/$. Each person has their own reasons for doing whatever it is they choose. As long as an individual is informed of all the options its up to that person to decide.

427sb vs. 427bb.....who cares. I'd betcha that BB is alot less stressed and doesnt work anywhere near as hard as the sb.

Obviously it doesnt make sense to build a 427BB when you can build a 500+ for the same price but its not up to use its upto the OP.

To answer his question....it seems like it would cost $3-5,000 more than steel block.
Thanks Jim, that's the kind of info I was looking for
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Old 10-03-2007, 04:04 PM   #28
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I asked a few days ago and got a useless answer from someone looking to pad his post count, so if you don`t mind my slightly changing your direction I will ask it again!! I have heard an aluminum block grows or moves so for an all out race motor which makes more power aluminum or cast iron....
thanks!!
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Old 10-03-2007, 04:09 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by fastrthnu View Post
I asked a few days ago and got a useless answer from someone looking to pad his post count, so if you don`t mind my slightly changing your direction I will ask it again!! I have heard an aluminum block grows or moves so for an all out race motor which makes more power aluminum or cast iron....
thanks!!
Cast iron. Its been proven many times. A full all out aluminum special race block with extra re-inforcements might make the same power as a steel block but all that extra reinforcements add some weight to it.
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Old 10-03-2007, 04:50 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by SeeThrees View Post

Arrogant people add nothing to this world.

for a block I would use the 10.200 raised cam. 4.500 bore $4399 But the cost is the same for short deck standard bores.

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/world-merlin.html

Scroll down the page to the 454 10.200 deck 454 mains with 4.500 stroke 6.535 rods $2395 The cost of forged rotating assemblies is about the same for 427 - 496 ci

I like dart heads. The 360 cc with 2.300/1.90 for 4.500 $1669 each or @ $3400 a pair

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/

$2000 for roller cam and timing set.......

Digital ignition and rev limiter...... $800

Carb....... on tall intake $1200

FAST EFI system easy $5000 from pump to oxy sensors

Pan, water pump, SFI damper $1000

4.5 X 4.5 = 473 cubic inch
4.560 X 4.5 = 588 ci

Completed motor $16K - $18K if you do the work. knock off $3800 for carbed version.

Last edited by gkull; 10-04-2007 at 09:36 AM. Reason: comments not necessary
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Old 10-03-2007, 05:07 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by 69427 View Post
Who are these "engine masters", and why do we care? Depending on the sanctioning rules, you might not want one of these 500-600 cube engines. If there is a vehicle weight/engine displacement ratio for a particular class, the smaller engine would allow a lighter car, which will corner and brake faster, while also allowing the suspension components to survive easier. If the old unlimited Can-Am was still in existence, I could see the point of large engines. But frankly, on a streetable vehicle, with tire limitations, I don't see this issue as b&w as some posters do. The original poster is paying the bills, and I'm interested in seeing him build the car/engine he wants.

Look up engine master competitions on the internet. Some of the best racing engine places in the country enter these twice a year events. Each event will have some set of rules. Like 93 octane and 850 cfm carb. AFR's Tony Momo the head designer has made heads for contestants on some of the winning motors. Prizes are like $100K for first place. Lots of blown motors on the extensive dyno testing. I was very surprised when nobody used a big block during one of the last events where they had a 454 limit. Not the Ford guys, Dodge or Chevy.....

The reason is: The winning motors all used the old NASCAR idea of Honda connecting rods for less bearing speed. The competitions are not just max HP, highest average HP & TQ from 2500 to 6500 rpm

In the big boy classes both dirt and circle track every one of those 850 hp cars are running fords and Chevys of 434 - 447 ci small blocks. Some of them also have to add weight - so if a big block was any good they would be running them in their $25K - 30K motors

As for Old Can-Am cars. I just filmed a 496 powered one a few weeks ago. He could blow by the field on the main straight only to be repassed in the slower back section of the track. The yellow car is the injected 496 ci

http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p...Can-Amtype.flv

Last edited by gkull; 10-03-2007 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 10-03-2007, 05:19 PM   #32
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Build it as big and strong as you can...or you'll get tired of having your a$$ handed to you by those that do. Once you get used to the power of the 427, you'll start wishing you'd gone 454...496...540...582
With modern cylinder head technology, the 427SB vs 427BB would probably be a toss-up, IMHO.
The big blocks DO move around a lot on full-out race engines but should be fine for the street.
Why not get one of GM's aluminum blocks - it's an upgraded version of the ZL-1!
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Old 10-03-2007, 05:28 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SeeThrees View Post
[B]

Arrogant people add nothing to this world.
Easy there, George has a lot to offer, you would be wise to listen to this man.....this man can run with most any BBC's.
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Old 10-03-2007, 05:34 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkull View Post
for a block I would use the 10.200 raised cam. 4.500 bore $4399 But the cost is the same for short deck standard bores.

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/world-merlin.html

Scroll down the page to the 454 10.200 deck 454 mains with 4.500 stroke 6.535 rods $2395 The cost of forged rotating assemblies is about the same for 427 - 496 ci

I like dart heads. The 360 cc with 2.300/1.90 for 4.500 $1669 each or @ $3400 a pair

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/

$2000 for roller cam and timing set.......

Digital ignition and rev limiter...... $800

Carb....... on tall intake $1200

FAST EFI system easy $5000 from pump to oxy sensors

Pan, water pump, SFI damper $1000

4.5 X 4.5 = 473 cubic inch
4.560 X 4.5 = 588 ci

Completed motor $16K - $18K if you do the work. knock off $3800 for carbed version.


[/B]
OK. what would a mild 502 'econo' build cost. Lets say with a regular ole aluminum intake, AFR heads and a roller can that idles smooth below 1000 rpm?

Last edited by GDaina; 10-03-2007 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:19 PM   #35
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OK. what would a mild 502 'econo' build cost. Lets say with a regular ole aluminum intake, AFR heads and a roller can that idles smooth below 1000 rpm?
Now on a question like this. I would have to ask are you doing the work or paying some hourly rate. You can't beat motors like the 502 500 hp crate motor with a warranty. They are already a roller motor. So the cost per HP of adding regular ole aluminum intake, AFR heads is very high.

You put on regular ole aluminum intake, AFR heads for $2500 and without any other changes you might only get 50 more hp. The cost is not worth it.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:24 PM   #36
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I own Vettes for two reasons - I like sports cars and I like big block Chevy engines. I've never owned a small block and I doubt I ever will. I simply have no interest. I'm sure there are people who have no interest in big block Vettes. Same deal to me - get what you like...

I've toyed with the idea of an aluminum block. If GM would offer a big bore ZL1 block I might get one. I'd probably get a four inch crank.

I've never raced and probably never will. Vettes are just fun toys for me and I like wrenching as much or more than driving.

My opinion is - if you want an aluminum 427 BBC enjoy the heck out of yourself.

Steve Barker (632C2) builds aluminum BBCs. He seems like a real good guy. I'd look at some of his threads.
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Old 10-03-2007, 07:10 PM   #37
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OK. what would a mild 502 'econo' build cost. Lets say with a regular ole aluminum intake, AFR heads and a roller can that idles smooth below 1000 rpm?
When I built my motor, I went piece meal...started out with a bare 502 block, purchased an Eagle, internal balanced 4.25" stroke crank, same price as 4.00" stroke, JE pistons, comp cams 288AR solid roller, rings, bearings, pan, pump, machine work, total cost to build the short block was 3,800.00. This was in 2001.
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:41 PM   #38
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I saw your initial post that is now removed with all the icons telling me to gets my facts straight!

Arrogant people add nothing to this world.
At least he restated his post, take some time and to get to know the people who've been here a long time.
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:58 PM   #39
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This one has a little extra weight but should make up for it.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1735609
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Old 10-03-2007, 11:55 PM   #40
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This one has a little extra weight but should make up for it.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1735609
I would disagree. There's a lot of cast iron in that picture. As long as you never care about slowing down for a corner, or actually trying to take a corner fast, then you're fine with that motor. But there are few tracks where you can make up in the straights what you lose in the corner entrances and corners. That engine looks strictly straight line material to me.
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Old 10-03-2007, 11:55 PM
 
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