Mac

It never ceases to amaze me how many articles and cross-references you dig up, 67Heaven. Thank God you're on our side. If you were a Mustang fan, maybe 67 Vette BBs might be affordable and the Mustangs would rule. Hmmm. Can I talk you into changing side, just for a while?

gerry c

One thing Chrysler did a LOT in those days (and Ford in a more limited basis) was make factory race cars. Mountainman (??) mentioned his father ran a SS/AA (?)car that chrysler built a run of 50 of. They also built some production street cars that really pushed the limits on street. Look at the 413/426 wedges with the cross ram manifolds.... those suckers were just plain mean.

Been a long time since I checked much on the BOSS 429, but I believe that could be classified as a Hemi. As for Chevy, Compared to the 409, ANYTHING would have been a semi-hemi :D The Big Block Chevy was designed first to be a truck motor, I guess we should glad they did and that each line had its own engine designers or we would have only had small blocks and the trucks would have used GMC's V6's and V12's from the time.

Every company made some hot engines back then (except maybe Cadillac), from the factory they all had quick cars that anyone with money could walk into the dealer and drive out with. Once out on the streets it seems that Chevy and MOPAR were the kings, I believe that is because they were cheaper to buy and had more aftermarket parts available at cheaper costs. I personaly believe Buicks were the best but any non-factory high performance parts would probably cost twice as much as those for a Chevy so you did not see as many people building them. Buick also had the disadvantage of being thought of mainly as an "old-mans" type car.

As far as who was best.... IMHO mid 60's MOPAR, late 60's other than the hemi, they were all pretty equal from the factory.

67HEAVEN

Thanks Mac....you know what they say, right?

The truth shall set you free!

Keep the faith, brothers!

67HEAVEN

Mac and Chuck,

I'd never want anyone to accuse me of overkill, but is that Chevy 427 on the cover of this Hi-Performance CARS magazine of July 1968 referred to as a Semi-Hemi or are my old eyes deceiving me?


Oh, and guys, please tell me that it really does say, "Why Chevrolet Will Continue to DOMINATE the Super Street Scene" to the right of the magazine name on the cover of this November 1968 issue of Hot Cars and High Performance Stockers.


Now there've been several other claims in earlier posts about Hemis, Olds 455's, etc. Thought maybe you folks would like to hear some numbers from when these cars were new.

1969 Hurst/Olds 455c.i. - 380 horsepower with Ram Air was tested in the August 1969 issue of Hi-Performance CARS magazine. Best time 13.97 - 102.58 mph. As they said in the article, "Such performance is not quite in the Cobra-Jet-Mustang territory but then the Mustang doesn't weigh 3826 pounds either."

1969 Dodge Charger 500 with 426 Hemi - 425 horsepower and 4.10:1 rear gear was tested in the April 1969 issue of Hi-Performance CARS magazine. And, as they say in the article, "Our best times on the track was 104 mph / 14.35 seconds which is strong for a street machine with closed pipes and stock shoes, but not really impressive for the bucks invested."

If you doubt my word.......just say so and I'll be glad to post the details!

On Dec. 22nd in the C1 & C2 Section, I published a roadtest (from when the car was new) of a 1967 Corvette L71 that produced a 12.8 - 112 mph with..............get this 3.36:1 rear gears and skinny bicycle tires! See it at http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=203145

Like I said before, I was there.....did that.....got the T-shirt!

Never thought I'd have to say it here on the Corvette Forum, but........take that doubters. :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash:

Oh, and Happy New Year folks! :seeya :D




[Modified by 67HEAVEN, 11:54 AM 12/26/2001]

Mac

You'd think here on the Corvette Forum, of all places, you'd be preaching to the choir, 67Heaven, but, as me granddad used to say "There's two ways to change a man's mind- with the truth or with an axe handle." :lol: :lol:

67HEAVEN

By the way, I'll bet all you C3 guys would get a kick out of the full story behind the headline on the yellow magazine cover above....the story is, '69 Chevrolet Power Team Preview and it includes 6 pages of detailed information on all of Chevy's Big Guns for '69 (sub-title at start of story).

One more thing......the top of page two reads "World's biggest seller is packing mighty potent powerplants - Fomoco and Mopar fans take heed. Hmmmmmmm!?!

Anyone interested?



[Modified by 67HEAVEN, 10:39 PM 12/25/2001]

LS1-Corvette00

Gerry,

Did I even say, anywhere in my post that Chrysler "Invented" the Hemi
Technology? No but rather I stated that the Technology revolutionized the
engine industry and that applies across the board to any internal combustion
engine produced for any use.

The truth of the matter is that MOST technologies used in engines both today
as well as in the 60's 70's 50's you name it.. Also came from world war II
aircraft. Technologies such as the Hemispherical Combustion Chamber,Multi
Valve, Over Head Camshafts, Superchargers, Turbochargers, Nitrous Oxide
and Variable Valve Timing were all technologies invented and implemented
to help one side or the other gain some sort of advantage to fly higher, fly
faster, fly longer and just plain win.

Kids today praise thier "Mighty VTEC Horsepowers" in thier Hondas for
example and they praise so highly the Over Head Cam while in the same
breath they beat down Pushrod OHV Technology saying that it is "Stone Aged"
Sad part is that these ill informed ignorant children have it backwards. If
any technology is stone aged it is OHC and if any technology could be refered
to as in it's infancy that would be OHV/Pushrod Technology.

And yes I am young (25) I wish that I could have "Been there Done that"
in the late 60's through early 70's but unfortunatly I wasn't born untill 1976.

The great thing is that I did grow up with a dad who not only professionaly
raced Super Stock and held Super Stock records but also ran a garage and
a speed shop.

I still hear the stories about how they used to sit me up on a Hemi engine
while he built them for customers, One time I even said "I'm helping daddie"
as I dropped a hand full of bolts down the intake manifold of a fresh Elephant
he was assembling for a friends A-Body. I am suprised I lived through that
little mistake! :)

But even though I was not "there" I have a guy who was.. And not only
did he kick butt and take names, but he also took video tape! Yep I have
hundreds of 8mm reels of nostalgic racing footage of his "Second Time Around"
doing bumper drags to the point where you could get under there and
change the oil...

I love old cars, I love new cars. I can side with both and I understand and
can build both. I love when old guys regress about the good old days where
"all the cars ran 10's" Yeah.. Unfortunatly most guys embelish.. Very few
muscle cars actualy had any muscle at all. We have cars today, that if they
were rated in gross H.P would surpass what was available back then.

The Muscle Cars never died, They just took a long symbatical IMHO!

This is one hell of a great thread!

gerry c

Out here in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, the old days were the days of hot rods, not like now. Our smog regs have been insane for over 15 years on everything on the road and the old days really were the good days if you like to do mechanical changes. For the most part now "high performance" on the street means chips, gears and NOS unless your beast is older than 25 years old. Modern cars with all the advances (which for the most part were forced by EPA regs) make for much more drivable high power machines.

I look with envey at all the changes you folks can make and still be street legal. Lets see for example what I could do to my vette...... Hmmmm... Maybe new heads and that would be about it. Needs the stock intake, carb, and full exhaust. Maybe I could play a bit with distributor advance but they even check that at idle when doing a smog inspection. My other choice would be go with a newer LT-1 or LS-6 and go to a special inspector and hopes he gives an okay to it.

My other choice would be to build a pre '74 car. Other than Corvette though, most of the Muscle Cars handled like pigs and early vette's here seem to go for more money than they do in other parts of the country. I've about decided that for a fun car I'm going to drag an old '39 buick out of the bushes here and build it. It was left here by the earlier owner of the property..... his family parked it there in '54. I lived here for a year before I even knew it was there.... (30 acres lots of trees and bushes). I figure if I can not have something that is fast and handles good, I may as well have something fast and different. As it is, I have something that handles good (vette), fast top speed (MB 560sec), cruiser ('73 Buick vert), 4X4's (GMC, S-10 Blaser, International), classic ('57 Imperial), bikes, plus a few "normal" cars. I guess I'm bored but I HATE to sell anything and my insurance agent LOVES me.

67HEAVEN

Never one to leave sleeping dogs lie.....

Had a little time to kill this evening, so I thought I'd look up one of those "when-new" roadtests of the Max Wedge 426 that some Mopar lovers have been telling us are better'n the good ol' Big Block Chevy.

"Our top-of-the-line 1965 Coronet 500 hardtop had Dodge's big "426" street engine, a 365-hp, wedge-head V-8, stuffed under the hood", from the June 1965 issue of Motor Trend magazine - page 60.

Now what do you suppose this standard-bearer Mopar engine provided in the way of performance in new, stock condition? I guess it would be better than the 12.8 seconds @ 112mph 1/4 mile times achieved by a stock 1967 L71 Corvette at http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=203145 ? Or maybe it would be better than the high 11 seconds or the mid-10's achieved by then new L-88 Corvettes in available magazine articles? ......nope......This dangerous Mopar 426 Wedge in pure-stock condition blasted through the 1/4 mile in a blistering 15.7 seconds @ 89 mph....that's right 15.7 seconds @ 89 mph!

Makes you want to trade in that Big Block Corvette doesn't it.
:lol: :lol: :p:

Oh....Happy New Year!





[Modified by 67HEAVEN, 9:16 PM 12/28/2001]

LS1-Corvette00

67Heaven,


Sounds like Apples to Oranges to me... There were diffrent variations of
the 426 Wedge Offered (The Max Wedge being the rarest and most poetent)

Sounds like that was not a Max Wedge car to me.. And not comparing the
top of the line engine from Mopar to the cream of the crop Big Block from GM
would just be Lunacy.


Another thing.. That L88 wouldn't run 10's on stock tires if it's life (or pink slip)
depended on it... Compare a car on skinnies to a car on slicks.. REAL FAIR..
:D

mountainmotor

Quote by 67 heaven"Never one to leave sleeping dogs lie....."
At least you are not a liar!You just believe too much of what you read.Us here like our Chevy's but a 1967 427 was never KING of the street!
Must of been something going on when a ccompany named Baldwin Motion bought them Big Block Cars then modified them so they could make em fast enough to run with the big dogs.Even the best numbers from the magazines in those days were massaged motors in a more or less paid advertisement.I wonder why there was not a Baldwin Mopar or the likes of?And as far as your 427 goes,don,t take it in the C4 forum cause some 350,s up there will embarrass you and make you feel like this

:U

67HEAVEN

"As a teen growing up in the late 60's in southern Kansas, I used to listen to WLS at night, after KLEO 1480 in Wichita went off at sunset. My big memory of WLS was the ten jillion commercials for Mr Norm's Grand Spaulding Dodge at 3300 Grand Avenue where you could buy a brand new 1967/8/9/70 Dodge Charger super-tuned & analyzed for $2599 (or whatever). My question is: Is Mr Norm's still around?
Reference: http://www.artroberts.com/_talk/0000000c.htm

Hmmmmmmm.......looks like Mopar had its own Baldwin ;)

63Banshee

Well… now I know where you are coming from. You have no knowledge regarding MOPAR history and therefore bias, which is fine.

The Max Wedge motors refer to MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE WEDGE motors! These are completely different then street Wedge motors!!! Just give it up, resistance is futile.

67HEAVEN

Be happy to talk about MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE WEDGE motors. In fact, let's listen to a report straight from a Mopar enthusiast's lips...

"Reported performances include a showroom-stock clocking of 14.4 at 101 mph for a 3440-pound, 3.91:1-geared, street-tired Dodge that was also equipped with an optional automatic transmission. Chrysler's three-speed Torqueflite was the only non-standard-shift factory trans ever fitted to an assembly-line super stocker, and what's more, gear changes with this unit were made by simply pushing a button! Using a pair of sticky Atlas Bucron tires, this same car, running with the exhaust cutouts open, clocked a 13.44 quarter at 109.76 mph. A 4.56:1-geared manual trans version of the 413 Dodge used basic strip tuning, tubing headers and 7-inch-wide M&H race tires to record a quarter-mile test best of 12.97 at almost 114 mph.http://www.fortunecity.com/silversto.../45/wedge2.htm

Compare that to 1967 L71 - 12.8 seconds @ 112 mph on 7.75 x 15 stock street tires. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=203145

Even bone stock, we'll take the Max Wedge with strip tuning, tubing headers and 7-inch-wide M&H race tires.

Game, set, match!
:smash:

And It's still a Happy New Year to you all! :cheers:


[Modified by 67HEAVEN, 12:25 AM 12/29/2001]

63Banshee

Someone got me thinking about this again and I just remembered a conversation I had with Arnie Beswick a few years ago…

At the time I was at the end of my diehard GTO fanatic phase and became interested in building my own Nostalgia drag car. Before deciding on a manufacturer I was lucky enough to hookup with Arnie at a GTO Nationals event and I picked his brain for a couple hours.

He had given a conference to a group of people and went into detail about his career mentioning his involvement with Dodge as well as his well-known Pontiac exploits. Never missing a beat, I was interested in why he didn’t return to Dodge knowing what they were developing for the early to mid 60’s. I later ran into him in the hotel hallway on my floor (turns out he was staying on the same floor). I told him I had a question that I was unable to ask during the conference because I had to leave for a Judge’s meeting. I sparked his interest instantly when I asked about his choice in the early sixties. He told me what few know about Pontiac at that time. Here’s a little of how the conversation went, to the best of my recollection…

…
‘In the early 60’s did you know about the experimental engines that Dodge was working on.’
“I was in contact with Dodge throughout the early 60’s regarding their racing program. They dangled all kinds of things in front of me to get me to go back because Pontiac was their only competition.”
‘What about the Thunderbolts and other Ford …’
“There just weren’t enough of those around to worry about… but yeah, they caused problems for us when they showed up.”
‘Well, knowing what Dodge was developing, why did you decide to stay with Pontiac?’
With a gleam in his eye he said “Pontiac had experimental motors that were just plain scary!… I had first choice of these motors when they came out, which was going to be around late ’63 early ’64… They would have dominated, no doubt…. But the corporate ban (GM) in ’63 put an end to it.”
(I was a little taken back by this statement so I stood there silent for what seemed like 5 minutes)
‘Knowing what you know now you would have gone back to Dodge?’
“Yeah, probably… I was getting so much from Pontiac though, even after the ban.”
‘That’s amazing… the Pontiac motors would have dominated the Hemi even?’
“Yeah, they were really coming up with some unbelievable stuff.”
…

You guys should feel privileged… I haven’t even shared that conversation with GTO guys.

The point of me bringing this up is that I want you to know just how objective I am when it comes to topics like these. I could have stated the 421 Super Duty motors are worthy of consideration as the dominant motor of the sixties, if it wasn’t for the fact that I know the limitations of Pontiac head design (I might share it with you if you ask nicely… probably not). I take all things into consideration and the fact is that the Max Wedge motors are superior. Hell, I was being nice. I could have started with the aluminum Hemi Ramchargers to support MOPAR… and you don’t want to go there!

If you consider what was developed around ’68 and took away anything before that time, I’d say the 427 motors would be the best choice in factory trim. If you want a motor with the most potential from the factory in the late ‘60s I’d have to say both the Hemi and 440 motors are king. Then again… I’d be interested in a head-to-head L88 / HP six-pack 440 match up.

BubbaJJ

actually, if you've ever picked up a copy of Muscle Car Review, many of the so called super cars were actually pretty slow by today's standards. I seem to remember many of them only being 14 second cars. 67 heaven can do the leg work on this one, but very few were in the low 13s and there were virtually no 12 second cars. I was always amazed at thinking how my cars are faster than the 60's factory street killers.

63Banshee

I find it amusing how selective you are with your Internet searches. Do you think no one will notice that is a 413 Max Wedge you are quoting about? Do you know that 426 Max Wedge motors produced 40+ HP over the 413? (and that’s just the first 426) Do you have any knowledge regarding anything besides Chevy and/or Corvette? Do you CARE about anything besides Chevy and/or Corvette? Do you know just how pathetic 7-inch slicks were in the early 60’s? I’d probably opt for late 60’s street tires if given the choice considering width and sidewall stiffness… not to mention tricks of the trade to get street tires to hook.

I’m done with this topic if you insist on being bias. This topic has the potential to bring out some VERY interesting facts about racing and manufacturer history and you are turning into a corporate flaming session.

:cheers: :seeya


[Modified by 63Banshee, 2:18 PM 12/29/2001]

MassVette

All I know is what I witnessed in the '60's. I had several small block Nova's and several Corvettes (not stock) during this period. All I can tell you is that I NEVER worried about a Mopar or Ford at the time.One friend was a Ford guy, (I really don't know why? HAD to be different, I guess) and he saved his money and bought a 1964 1/2 Ford Galaxie 500 with a light weight front end, 427 2x4, and a T-10 with a Detroit Locker rear end. He was CONSTANTLY stuffed by my friend's STOCK '67 GTO!
A guy drove up from Tasca Ford with a solid lifter Mustang coupe (which was set up the same as a Shelby GT 350, at great expense), because he wanted to humiliate the GTO guy. Guess who was humiliated! After being beaten by the GTO, another friend's '65 442, and my '63 Fuelie 'Vette, he limped home to East Providence, poorer but wiser.
Then there were the two guys in our town who bought new Road Runners. What a couple of sleds they were! Same with the 440 GTX-a big dog! There were COUNTLESS other encounters in our area, and I can safely say that not many GM guys were worried about too many Fords or Mopars. THe 390 and 428 Mustangs were nose-heavy, plowing, rubber-burning pigs, too. The suspension was no different in these Mustang "race cars" then the stock one that came in my "shoe box" Nova SS! The 390 Fairlanes were NEVER a match for the 396 Chevelles, either.
There WERE a couple of "millionaires" who had Hemi Belvederes, though. When they weren't broken, they were pretty fast.
The only Ford guy who won consistently was Raymond "Jr." Patriarca from East Providence. His daddy (the famous N.E. mob boss) bought him a NEW AC Cobra from Tasca Ford! Couldn't (and wouldn't compete against that!)
That's MY recollection of the "Muscle Car" era in our neck of the woods.

:yesnod: :chevy :chevy

mountainmotor

Bubbajj,
Some would really go good traction was a very big issue.Have seen stock Judges and Buick's in the 12's with the help of slicks and electric fuel pump. These new tires make a big difference.Look at th 0-60 ft time of some of the least modded C4's in our forum.Very quick!
63 banshee,
Since you brought up Pontiac I thought you might be interested in the first two cars I ever rode in that would daylite the tires.One was a 1967 GTO and the other was a 62 Catalina w/421 Super Duty.The old guy that had the Catalina bought it new and was a legend in the OKC area long before Chevy BB.When he would bring the car out on Satureday nites only a couple times a year looking for someone to beat up on it was funny how many excuses not to run was made up.The year was 1971.I had also heard about a secret Poncho motor that was inpart being developed in Australia because of the head expert down there.It was a big inch dual overhead cam motor.Later I actually read about it in a magazine but have since forgot all but what I have said.I imagine DeLorean wanted it for his prized GTO.Ganey is a motor car historian he could help with this mystery engine.
When any of you doubt the capabuiities of the Mopar Wedge design go back 10 years or so and remember that when Mopar got back into ProStock and with the help of Driver Darrell Alderman and another driver? and the guys from Wayne County Speed Shop they were literally stomping on GM.Both the Olds headed motors and the Pontiac Big Chief.They had MPH on them that the GM sponsored cars could not believe.It was a hopeless situation for the Competitors of these two cars. The shop the cars were based out of along with one off parts,tooling ect was destroyed by the use of a sledge hammer then burned to the ground.Any of you remember what Mopar was doing to the best GM Race teams during that short period?

SBR

Mountainmotor, I have a freind that is in the innercircles of Prostock and according to him Darrell Alderman And Scott Geoffrion were caught running a hidden NOS system on their cars and then used the vandelism story as a cover for their quiet suspension. This is not a flame against Mopar, I like all HiPo cars but I do like BB Vettes the most. If you think that this is BS then a little food for thought. Why is it that 8 years later they are still not competitive in Prostock, and now they are running a Hemi motor?