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Old 05-12-2009, 04:48 PM   #1
Al Davis
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Default Dart Pro 1 vs AFR 195 Eliminators

Hello, just pricing out some combo's. The Dart Pro 1 200 and the AFR 195 Eliminators are almost the same price. ($1,400). Both of these are very popular high quality performance heads. Which head is the best, do you even need such high performance heads for, say a 450hp 383 or a stout 355? All opinions welcome.
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:16 PM   #2
pauldana
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Originally Posted by Al Davis View Post
Hello, just pricing out some combo's. The Dart Pro 1 200 and the AFR 195 Eliminators are almost the same price. ($1,400). Both of these are very popular high quality performance heads. Which head is the best, do you even need such high performance heads for, say a 450hp 383 or a stout 355? All opinions welcome.
450 HP IS HIGH PERFORMANCE. and not only will you need to purchase such heads, but afterwards you will have to have them ported, polished, and port-matched to get this HP, along with headers cam intake, and so-forth.
imho
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:33 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by pauldana View Post
450 HP IS HIGH PERFORMANCE. and not only will you need to purchase such heads, but afterwards you will have to have them ported, polished, and port-matched to get this HP, along with headers cam intake, and so-forth.
imho

IŽll say you are completely wrong regarding the AFR Eliminators. Joe Sherman made a 383-combo with exactly the 195 afr:s and managed to get out nearly 620hp out of it if i didnŽt remeber this wrong in a couple of hp or so. All for pump gas and all was at around 6400rpm so the 7000+ rpm wasnt even needed, ofcourse youŽll need to have all other parts top notch as well but iŽll figure out you do so...

The heads was also the regular race-ready not even the cnc-version of them so iŽll say go for the AFR:s they are KILLERS without comparisons.
not trying to master anyone, please remember that...
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:46 PM   #4
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Brodix makes a fine product as well.
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Old 05-12-2009, 06:52 PM   #5
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AFR 195 eliminators, bolt them on ,and hang on to your AZZ.
Finest heads I have ever owned, my 383 loves them
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:29 PM   #6
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I have the old version of the 195 head and I make about 570 hp on pump gas. I think the new 195 eliminator head is supposed to be good for another 25 to 30 hp.
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:46 PM   #7
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If you ask any high performance engine builder he will tell you the potential HP for any heads N/A and pump gas friendly. A simple math formula is used, cfm X2 so for the AFR 195's you get about 280cfm and you get about 560HP on an engine dyno.

This formula has been around for years and I believe it, my previous 406ci had Vic Jr heads that flowed 280cfm and made 548HP on an engine dyno To make more HP you up the compression and put in a bigger cam but it becomes "unstreetable"

The 195 Eliminators are big numbers flowing heads you can get well north of 500HP with the correct parts. Don't be fooled by 195cc intake runner these are big heads and you have to match parts accordingly
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Last edited by MotorHead; 05-12-2009 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 05-13-2009, 01:20 PM   #8
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IŽll say you are completely wrong regarding the AFR Eliminators. Joe Sherman made a 383-combo with exactly the 195 afr:s and managed to get out nearly 620hp out of it if i didnŽt remeber this wrong in a couple of hp or so. All for pump gas and all was at around 6400rpm so the 7000+ rpm wasnt even needed, ofcourse youŽll need to have all other parts top notch as well but iŽll figure out you do so...

The heads was also the regular race-ready not even the cnc-version of them so iŽll say go for the AFR:s they are KILLERS without comparisons.
not trying to master anyone, please remember that...
Right... But that was not with just a head swap.. yes they are good heads... but you are still talking cam, intake exust and so forth. There is NO way to make that HP with just a head swap... be real.. And I have been down this road a couple of times... you are not going to make a 600HP 383 N/A engine.
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Old 05-13-2009, 01:27 PM   #9
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I have new in the box Brodix SB Track 1 heads set up for roller cam.1400.00 shipped.
Also,before you pull the trigger whichever route that you go....shoot me a pm,and will beat all the big boy mail order companies on the Darts,Brodix,AFRs,Edelbrock,Worlds,etc.: thumbs:
ANYTHING performance related...I carry,and will save you some coin.

Last edited by vettesbydesign; 05-14-2009 at 12:46 AM. Reason: stuck on stupid....
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:41 PM   #10
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Joe Sherman did it. Copied from another site.

The highlights below:

383ci
11:1 compression
259° @ 0.050" roller cam, 106° LSA
AFR 195 heads (new design - out of the box)
850 BG carb
Super Victor intake
91 octane pump fuel

615 HP @ 6700 RPM, 528 lbs/ft torque @ 5200 RPM
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:27 PM   #11
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i have new 195 eliminators on a 350 with a mild roller and 10.6-1cr with 770 holley and i dynoed 453@ crank.
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L79racer View Post
Joe Sherman did it. Copied from another site.

The highlights below:

383ci
11:1 compression
259° @ 0.050" roller cam, 106° LSA
AFR 195 heads (new design - out of the box)
850 BG carb
Super Victor intake
91 octane pump fuel

615 HP @ 6700 RPM, 528 lbs/ft torque @ 5200 RPM
Don't believe everything you read on the internet, they are good heads but really won't support 600+ HP, especially with 11:1 compression and pump gas. Dyno's can be setup to spit out any number you want
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Old 05-13-2009, 11:44 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by steve dalla View Post
i have new 195 eliminators on a 350 with a mild roller and 10.6-1cr with 770 holley and i dynoed 453@ crank.
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:29 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorHead View Post
Don't believe everything you read on the internet, they are good heads but really won't support 600+ HP, especially with 11:1 compression and pump gas. Dyno's can be setup to spit out any number you want
I went through this before... and was wrong...
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:57 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorHead View Post
Don't believe everything you read on the internet, they are good heads but really won't support 600+ HP, especially with 11:1 compression and pump gas. Dyno's can be setup to spit out any number you want
Tell me how much HP my 383 makes. Its pump gas. In my 67 vette at 3200lbs it went just under 130 mph in the quarter. I then put it in a vega at 2950 and it went over 133 in the quarter. I think I saw that your a motor builder so I'm curious what you think.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:15 AM   #16
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I think Motorhead and L79 Racer are actually both right or very close. Check this site out. It is the most comprehensive I have found and gives you flow numbers and projected maximum HP at 3 different build levels. Street High Performance, Competition and Pro Stock. Street High performance is a little over double the intake flow at the lift you run on almost everything tested. This would be under ideal, perfectly matched build specs which rarely happen. According to a flow bench test by David Vizard (on this chart) the AFR 195 eliminators flow 295 CFM @ .600 lift. and are capable of supporting 601 HP in a street high performance build.
These heads are incredible for a 195 head. The race version is insane for the port size. The AFR 195 Eliminators are far superior to any other 195 head made and actually out flow a lot of 200, 210 heads. The I/E ratio is one of the highest also.
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Chevy
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:58 PM   #17
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According to a flow bench test by David Vizard (on this chart) the AFR 195 eliminators flow 295 CFM @ .600 lift. and are capable of supporting 601 HP in a street high performance build.

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Chevy
The key word here is SUPPORTING....... It does not mean you will have this HP..I think it was gkall that had all the specifics.... but he showed that there was no N/A 383 doing 550HP... I will try and find that thread and post
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:14 PM   #18
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The key word here is SUPPORTING....... It does not mean you will have this HP..I think it was gkall that had all the specifics.... but he showed that there was no N/A 383 doing 550HP... I will try and find that thread and post
Are you saying that a 383 cant make 550 hp?
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:24 PM   #19
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This is a copy of a post from Beach Bum...

Something to think about..... if you add 15% to your chassis dyno numbers (by dividing .85) to get the flywheel, and then I create a 2500 rpm based upon the linear curve, and then for the 6500, assume that it just remains flat from 6000 to 6500 rpm.... your flywheel dyno numbers look like the below:

rpm............TQ..........HP
2500..........555.........264
3000..........607.........347
3500..........626.........417
4000..........625.........476
4500..........616.........528
5000..........603.........574
5500..........567.........594
6000..........533.........609
6500..........492.........609

As you can see, out of your 383, world products, roller cam, edelbrock intake, 2" exhaust, your motor would be listed as a 609 HP @ 6000-6500 - 626 ftlbs @ 3500-4000 rpm.....

As they do in the Engine Masters Challenge, they take the average tq and hp between 2500-6500 rpm, add them together, then divide by the cubic inches and then multiple by 1000 to get their final points score. In your case, your motor would have scored = 2797 points based upon your averaging right around 580 ftlbs & 490 HP.......

The winning 2008 motor was built by Jon Kaase performance and was a 403 that averaged 558 ftlbs & 484 hp for a winning score of = 2587 points. Keeping in mind, they are pushing these motor to the brink using every one of their tricks to get that kind of power. This 403 motor came short of your 383 by over 20 ftlbs and 6 hp..... a huge number when in competition.

The School of Automotive Machinists, led by Judson Massingill, had a 410 ci entry that squeezed out an average of 477 hp & 548 ftlbs.. 13 hp and over 30 ftlbs short of your 383......, their score was 2503 points and this was good enough for 3rd place in the competition.

My point to all of this, if that dyno was working correctly, your motor is worth tens of thousandths of dollars.... just enter in a few engine competitions and you'll be bringing home the bacon. And based upon the instant celebrity fame the motor would get, you could probably market copies of the motor to the masses..... I know, I would be interested. The HP is very doable for a stout 383 with a roller cam that spins up..... over 600 hp is certainly nothing new with them. But, its the torque, only time I have seen that type of torque out of a sbc is with forced induction or nitrous.... even a 434 would be hard pressed to squeeze that torque out of it and if it did squeeze out 625+ ftlbs of torque down at 3500 rpm, its going to be sacrificing power up top......

Just food for thought.....

So... no is my answer, not from a N/A motor with any torque

Last edited by pauldana; 05-14-2009 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:28 PM   #20
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Hello, just pricing out some combo's. The Dart Pro 1 200 and the AFR 195 Eliminators are almost the same price. ($1,400). Both of these are very popular high quality performance heads. Which head is the best, do you even need such high performance heads for, say a 450hp 383 or a stout 355? All opinions welcome.
If you want performance in a 383 look for 300 or so intake CFM and as close as you can get to reaching 230 on the exhaust. The smallest heads I ever used used on my 383 were the AFR 210's. The modern 195's compete in CFM with the older 210's
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