List of Flat-Tappet Oils
12-13-2009, 07:10 AM
#41
Le Mans Master
I agree wholeheartedly with 63mako! Why would anyone use a diesel oil, like shell Rotella T, when there are so many options for gasoline oils that are better suited for a gas engine! What are you saving using a diesel oil, a $1 per quart per year? Give me a break!
73Stingray-Walmart sells Mobil 1, a true group IV synthetic, for $22 for a 5 quart container, $4.40 a quart, for 15W-50, 1,200 PPM ZDDP. By far, the least expensive of the true synthetics for a flat tappet cam engine!
73Stingray-Walmart sells Mobil 1, a true group IV synthetic, for $22 for a 5 quart container, $4.40 a quart, for 15W-50, 1,200 PPM ZDDP. By far, the least expensive of the true synthetics for a flat tappet cam engine!
12-13-2009, 09:33 AM
#42
Le Mans Master
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When choosing an oil that meets user needs, Ready availability is often as important as price.
I KNOW two more things here:
(1) Several months ago, BOTH of the local wal-marts QUIT shelving 5qt jugs of Mobil-1 15W-50 ... FACT. No slot/tag on shelf either. However, w-m does shelve it in qts almost $7 each. W-M shelves do have plenty other weights in 5 qt jugs at $22/5qt jug; not 15W-50. Same goes for a wal-mart some 35 miles south of here too! I personally visited all 3 just this month DEC 2009. All 3 of those W-M DID shelve 5qt jugs of Mobil-1 15W-50 but not now since several months. Fact!
(2) Our regional oval track racers run Solid Flat Cams with VERY FAST & STEEP RAMPS (aka very high intensity) w/ solid flat tappet lifters; with very rare exception, all are sbc. They also run VERY strong springs. Both cam & springs are lots more radical than anything likely found in a forum street vette w/ flat tappet. The VAST majority of them are running Rotella CJ repeat CJ that's NEW Rotella 15W-40 api CJ. That's the only rotella 15W-40 that's been readily available around here for about 2 years now. Most of these guys spend LOTSA $ on motors; but NOT on failed/wiped cams or lifters. It's a FACT, around here in those highly-stressed flat tappet solid motors there is no problem running NEW Rotella 15W-40 CJ. Fact! It's a fact that Rotella 15W-40 CJ works great for most folks w/ flat tappet cams. It's about $10.50/gal jug at above wal-marts. FACT! But please, y'all don't use any of it OK?; that only drives my cost up.
-add- a third:
my experience chasing after hard-to-find motor oil did Not coincide w/ ZDDP reduction; it began long before. Many moons ago, long before arnold or malcolm popularized harleys, I was building & riding old hotrod harleys (had a '49 pan FL when I was hs junior, have '54 pan FL today) ... and yes they had OE roller lifters. Those old bikes prefer a straight 60W oil as sold at hd dealer for hi$. But there weren't so many HD dealers back then, not by any stretch; read few & far between. So, I got heavy oil where I could and a pretty reliable source was any small airfield. There, I could usually find AeroShell 120 (in airplane tech that's about 60W). Yep, it's made for an airplane but I didn't care because it worked great. I didn't discover that source; plenty others were doing same & I learned from them. Also, some race car speed shops carried Valvoline Race straight 60W but that was Not a reliable source & they were as scarce as hd dealers. Once again, used an oil Not intended for my motor but it was closest thing readily available & it worked just fine. Gosh, I remember that old Wolf's Head straight 70W ... kinda like molasses ... wish i had another case or 2. Fact!
I KNOW two more things here:
(1) Several months ago, BOTH of the local wal-marts QUIT shelving 5qt jugs of Mobil-1 15W-50 ... FACT. No slot/tag on shelf either. However, w-m does shelve it in qts almost $7 each. W-M shelves do have plenty other weights in 5 qt jugs at $22/5qt jug; not 15W-50. Same goes for a wal-mart some 35 miles south of here too! I personally visited all 3 just this month DEC 2009. All 3 of those W-M DID shelve 5qt jugs of Mobil-1 15W-50 but not now since several months. Fact!
(2) Our regional oval track racers run Solid Flat Cams with VERY FAST & STEEP RAMPS (aka very high intensity) w/ solid flat tappet lifters; with very rare exception, all are sbc. They also run VERY strong springs. Both cam & springs are lots more radical than anything likely found in a forum street vette w/ flat tappet. The VAST majority of them are running Rotella CJ repeat CJ that's NEW Rotella 15W-40 api CJ. That's the only rotella 15W-40 that's been readily available around here for about 2 years now. Most of these guys spend LOTSA $ on motors; but NOT on failed/wiped cams or lifters. It's a FACT, around here in those highly-stressed flat tappet solid motors there is no problem running NEW Rotella 15W-40 CJ. Fact! It's a fact that Rotella 15W-40 CJ works great for most folks w/ flat tappet cams. It's about $10.50/gal jug at above wal-marts. FACT! But please, y'all don't use any of it OK?; that only drives my cost up.
-add- a third:
my experience chasing after hard-to-find motor oil did Not coincide w/ ZDDP reduction; it began long before. Many moons ago, long before arnold or malcolm popularized harleys, I was building & riding old hotrod harleys (had a '49 pan FL when I was hs junior, have '54 pan FL today) ... and yes they had OE roller lifters. Those old bikes prefer a straight 60W oil as sold at hd dealer for hi$. But there weren't so many HD dealers back then, not by any stretch; read few & far between. So, I got heavy oil where I could and a pretty reliable source was any small airfield. There, I could usually find AeroShell 120 (in airplane tech that's about 60W). Yep, it's made for an airplane but I didn't care because it worked great. I didn't discover that source; plenty others were doing same & I learned from them. Also, some race car speed shops carried Valvoline Race straight 60W but that was Not a reliable source & they were as scarce as hd dealers. Once again, used an oil Not intended for my motor but it was closest thing readily available & it worked just fine. Gosh, I remember that old Wolf's Head straight 70W ... kinda like molasses ... wish i had another case or 2. Fact!
Last edited by jackson; 12-13-2009 at 10:33 AM.
12-13-2009, 10:48 AM
#43
Guys,
I've meant to ask many times how Kendall GT-1 is rated over there as it seems to be quite popular over here. I stumbled across the following sentence today at Bobistheoilguy.com:
"The "green" Kendall that many old timers talk about is now Brad Penn oil made by American Refining Group in Pennsylvania"
Is this so ie. BP is the "good old stuff"?
I've meant to ask many times how Kendall GT-1 is rated over there as it seems to be quite popular over here. I stumbled across the following sentence today at Bobistheoilguy.com:
"The "green" Kendall that many old timers talk about is now Brad Penn oil made by American Refining Group in Pennsylvania"
Is this so ie. BP is the "good old stuff"?
12-13-2009, 11:29 AM
#44
Drifting
I use Shell Rotella CJ-4 in my 68 L36 (rebuilt original engine) and my 65 442 (original engine) because it works. I believe other oils will work also. Please use what works for you.
12-13-2009, 08:11 PM
#45
Le Mans Master
"I KNOW two more things here:
(1) Several months ago, BOTH of the local wal-marts QUIT shelving 5qt jugs of Mobil-1 15W-50 ... FACT. No slot/tag on shelf either. However, w-m does shelve it in qts almost $7 each. W-M shelves do have plenty other weights in 5 qt jugs at $22/5qt jug; not 15W-50. Same goes for a wal-mart some 35 miles south of here too! I personally visited all 3 just this month DEC 2009. All 3 of those W-M DID shelve 5qt jugs of Mobil-1 15W-50 but not now since several months. Fact!"
Well Jackson-All I can say is that YOUR Walmart does not stock 15W-50 Mobil 1-That may be a fact in your area. Just today, I went to the Walmart in Dartmouth, MA (TODAY!) and FACT is that Walmart DOES STOCK 5 QT containers of Mobil 1 15W-50, as I stated previously-FACT! Again, as stated previously it comes to $4.40 per quart-that is also a FACT!
As stated above by others, I am sure that Shell Rotella T is a decent oil especially for diesel engines but I do not think that it is superior to a true full synthetic, for obvious reasons. My preference for a true synthetic is based on 4 basic reasons:
1. True Group IV synthetics have uniforn molecule size, better heat resistance and cold start flow, which is not the case of ANY conventional oil-Uniform moelcules equal more even distribution between the oil and the contact surface.
2. Just about EVERY major high performance automobile produced today leaves the factory with a synthetic-Think Corvette, Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, etc-Maybe they know something about engine longevity that we don't?
3. In european F1 racing where the engines are 2.4 liter normally aspirated V8's turning 18,000 RPM's (2 years ago 20,000 RPMS) and the engines have to last 2 full races before they can be replaced, every engine manufacturer uses a synthetic-Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, etc-Reference reason #2 above-See a pattern here?
4. I have used a True group IV synthetic oil in every car I have owned since 1986 and NEVER have had an engine failure or even one that had oil consumption issue, regardless of mileage, using Mobil 1 (15W-50 now only for the vette since it has the correct amount of ZDDP)!
There are plenty of good quality conventional oils, even beyond Shell Rotella T, but there are just as many excellent synthetics, some of which are VERY affordable and can be used in a flat tappet cam engine.
(1) Several months ago, BOTH of the local wal-marts QUIT shelving 5qt jugs of Mobil-1 15W-50 ... FACT. No slot/tag on shelf either. However, w-m does shelve it in qts almost $7 each. W-M shelves do have plenty other weights in 5 qt jugs at $22/5qt jug; not 15W-50. Same goes for a wal-mart some 35 miles south of here too! I personally visited all 3 just this month DEC 2009. All 3 of those W-M DID shelve 5qt jugs of Mobil-1 15W-50 but not now since several months. Fact!"
Well Jackson-All I can say is that YOUR Walmart does not stock 15W-50 Mobil 1-That may be a fact in your area. Just today, I went to the Walmart in Dartmouth, MA (TODAY!) and FACT is that Walmart DOES STOCK 5 QT containers of Mobil 1 15W-50, as I stated previously-FACT! Again, as stated previously it comes to $4.40 per quart-that is also a FACT!
As stated above by others, I am sure that Shell Rotella T is a decent oil especially for diesel engines but I do not think that it is superior to a true full synthetic, for obvious reasons. My preference for a true synthetic is based on 4 basic reasons:
1. True Group IV synthetics have uniforn molecule size, better heat resistance and cold start flow, which is not the case of ANY conventional oil-Uniform moelcules equal more even distribution between the oil and the contact surface.
2. Just about EVERY major high performance automobile produced today leaves the factory with a synthetic-Think Corvette, Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, etc-Maybe they know something about engine longevity that we don't?
3. In european F1 racing where the engines are 2.4 liter normally aspirated V8's turning 18,000 RPM's (2 years ago 20,000 RPMS) and the engines have to last 2 full races before they can be replaced, every engine manufacturer uses a synthetic-Ferrari, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, etc-Reference reason #2 above-See a pattern here?
4. I have used a True group IV synthetic oil in every car I have owned since 1986 and NEVER have had an engine failure or even one that had oil consumption issue, regardless of mileage, using Mobil 1 (15W-50 now only for the vette since it has the correct amount of ZDDP)!
There are plenty of good quality conventional oils, even beyond Shell Rotella T, but there are just as many excellent synthetics, some of which are VERY affordable and can be used in a flat tappet cam engine.
Last edited by jb78L-82; 12-13-2009 at 08:35 PM.
12-13-2009, 09:42 PM
#46
Le Mans Master
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jb78-l82
Seems your w-m has your oil; ours does not ... maybe others do & others do not?
You seem to know what works for you & have your preferences but ... to me, it seems you show undue bias against truck oils.
But w/ all that F1 info at hand, why you can't figure out on your own what sort of small mild cam to pick for a stock motor? In a manner similar to when you took a whack at diesel oil users ... what's so hard about that?
I don't have an F1 car or superbike or anything close. I'd like to, but doubt I'll spend a minute in a F1 garage. Wish I could've been in Jim Clark's pit.
I have 3 daily drivers ... a town car that'll tick off 200K tomorrow AM, another town car w/ +160K, and an S10 w/ +170K. All have roller cams & cats & all run dino CJ truck oil (C3 too!). None rattle, smoke or burn oil (C3 did but fixed w/ vs seals). I've never run synthetic in any of them; I do recommend it for smaller, late-model hi-rev motors w/ OHC alum heads. I know what works for me and for regional racers I know; many of them have both more smarts & $ than me. It's obvious to us how truck oil works great for us just as it's obvious to us how we don't need anything else including synthetic. We know what overkill is too; we don't put iconel exhaust valves in a go to work pickup truck although iconel is a superior valve material & x-racer runs them.
Now, if I'm gifted next week w/ a late-model Civic, Yaris etc ... it'll stay filled w/ some sort of synthetic ... otherwise CJ truck oil's aok.
Perhaps we just aren't savvy enough to use Mobil-1 in sufficient volume to warrant restocking shelves w/ 15W-50.
While your oil work great for you does not also mean others' successful oil choices are any less valid than yours.
Seems your w-m has your oil; ours does not ... maybe others do & others do not?
You seem to know what works for you & have your preferences but ... to me, it seems you show undue bias against truck oils.
But w/ all that F1 info at hand, why you can't figure out on your own what sort of small mild cam to pick for a stock motor? In a manner similar to when you took a whack at diesel oil users ... what's so hard about that?
I don't have an F1 car or superbike or anything close. I'd like to, but doubt I'll spend a minute in a F1 garage. Wish I could've been in Jim Clark's pit.
I have 3 daily drivers ... a town car that'll tick off 200K tomorrow AM, another town car w/ +160K, and an S10 w/ +170K. All have roller cams & cats & all run dino CJ truck oil (C3 too!). None rattle, smoke or burn oil (C3 did but fixed w/ vs seals). I've never run synthetic in any of them; I do recommend it for smaller, late-model hi-rev motors w/ OHC alum heads. I know what works for me and for regional racers I know; many of them have both more smarts & $ than me. It's obvious to us how truck oil works great for us just as it's obvious to us how we don't need anything else including synthetic. We know what overkill is too; we don't put iconel exhaust valves in a go to work pickup truck although iconel is a superior valve material & x-racer runs them.
Now, if I'm gifted next week w/ a late-model Civic, Yaris etc ... it'll stay filled w/ some sort of synthetic ... otherwise CJ truck oil's aok.
Perhaps we just aren't savvy enough to use Mobil-1 in sufficient volume to warrant restocking shelves w/ 15W-50.
While your oil work great for you does not also mean others' successful oil choices are any less valid than yours.
12-13-2009, 09:53 PM
#47
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
"I should note in fairness that the sample bottle had some used oil in it previously. Although I cleaned it well, it may not have been perfect. For accuracy, I just wanted to note that."
12-13-2009, 10:10 PM
#48
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I've updated based on the newest posts and the list is current for the moment.
Note that I've declined to add oils that are only available in single grade, i.e. 30wt. I'm open for debate on this
Note that I've declined to add oils that are only available in single grade, i.e. 30wt. I'm open for debate on this
12-13-2009, 10:17 PM
#49
Le Mans Master
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? origin of FT 1200ppm zddp std ?
What is the origin of the often-repeated "1200 ppm min zddp for flat tappets" ???
Who originally decided 1200ppm is "the" minimum standard?
I'm Not necessarily disputing it ... I simply wanna know who established it as a std? & how?
I do not see this as political; it seems core to this thread.
Kinda like whatever number is bandied about as std for max DCR?
Who originally decided 1200ppm is "the" minimum standard?
I'm Not necessarily disputing it ... I simply wanna know who established it as a std? & how?
I do not see this as political; it seems core to this thread.
Kinda like whatever number is bandied about as std for max DCR?
12-13-2009, 10:32 PM
#50
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Every oil manufacturer I contacted noted 1200 PPM as sufficient for flat-tappet cams, and they all said this was based on their discussions with flat-tappet cam manufacturers. All noted that for "racing" use a "racing" oil should be used.
CompCams recommends at least 1000 PPM.
From SAE data "SF" (1988 and prior) oils called for .15% ZDDP, "SG" (1988 - 1993) oils called for .12% ZDDP and it continued to drop with each new release. I think "SM" hit in 2004 with .08% ZDDP...and this is when cams started going flat. From this, 1200 seems to be a reasonable minimum.
I'm open to other sources or other explanations.
CompCams recommends at least 1000 PPM.
From SAE data "SF" (1988 and prior) oils called for .15% ZDDP, "SG" (1988 - 1993) oils called for .12% ZDDP and it continued to drop with each new release. I think "SM" hit in 2004 with .08% ZDDP...and this is when cams started going flat. From this, 1200 seems to be a reasonable minimum.
I'm open to other sources or other explanations.
Last edited by billla; 12-13-2009 at 10:46 PM.
12-13-2009, 10:33 PM
#51
Race Director
What is the origin of the often-repeated "1200 ppm min zddp for flat tappets" ???
Who originally decided 1200ppm is "the" minimum standard?
I'm Not necessarily disputing it ... I simply wanna know who established it as a std? & how?
I do not see this as political; it seems core to this thread.
Kinda like whatever number is bandied about as std for max DCR?
Who originally decided 1200ppm is "the" minimum standard?
I'm Not necessarily disputing it ... I simply wanna know who established it as a std? & how?
I do not see this as political; it seems core to this thread.
Kinda like whatever number is bandied about as std for max DCR?
Enginebuilder magazine recommends 1600 PPM on all flat tappet and performance roller cammed engines and 2000 PPM for racing use:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti..._additves.aspx
It also explains that RPM, cam type and spring pressures will dictate the level of Zinc needed. A stock flat tappet cam that is driven as a normal car might be fine with 1100 or 1200. A performance hydraulic flat tappet with fast ramps that sees 6000 RPM regularly might need more maybe up to 1600. A racing application with heavy springs and a high lift solid flat tappet that sees 7500 RPM regularly might need 2000 PPM. I really don't think there is a number that is carved in stone and has research to back it up anywhere I know of. All I do know is I would rather be safe than wish I would have used something else. Err on the side of caution! There have just been too many failures and issues with modern oils and as the article you posted states.
http://www.cam-shield.com/acatalog/diesel.html
Last edited by 63mako; 12-13-2009 at 11:23 PM.
12-13-2009, 11:58 PM
#52
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I've updated the top-level post with a few thoughts from my prior post - I expect I have some research work to do to back some of this up, but overall it looks like good validation of 1200 PPM as a reasonable low limit, with 1500+ for more extreme cams and applications.
It is a turbo diesel approved oil that can handle the heat and flat tappet cam of a diesel. The price is a hell of a lot better than the $5.00+ a quart fancy pants oils
IMHO
12-14-2009, 07:30 AM
#54
Le Mans Master
Jackson,
I do have a bias for certain oils and like you, use what has worked for me, which is OK. Nothing personal, but just explaining my bias. As for the cam selection, I am acutely aware of my shortcomings about the selection and just admitting that where cams are concerned, others know more than me-sorry for my lack of knowledge on that subject.
I do have a bias for certain oils and like you, use what has worked for me, which is OK. Nothing personal, but just explaining my bias. As for the cam selection, I am acutely aware of my shortcomings about the selection and just admitting that where cams are concerned, others know more than me-sorry for my lack of knowledge on that subject.
12-14-2009, 10:35 AM
#55
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Sorry Billa. PM me if you would like me to remove my posts. Did not mean to vary from your subject but trying to inform with some good references recomending quite a bit more than the 1200 PPM that seems to be a universal minimum for a stock type grind running typical driver RPM.
I just want to stay away from "political" posts regarding oil and stay focused on the technology.
I zapped the post so as not to give the wrong message - my apologies.
Last edited by billla; 12-14-2009 at 10:51 AM.
12-14-2009, 03:45 PM
#56
Melting Slicks
"Motorcycle" oil has been mentioned above. While I'm not crazy about 10w-40's, Castrol and Valvoline (and probably others) offer 4 stroke MC oil with 1200 ppm zinc. Other than 1200ppm being possibly boarderline, any problems using that. I'm aware Mobil 1 MC oils are above that level but also at $9 (or so) per qt.
12-15-2009, 01:49 AM
#57
Race Director
Go to Bobistheoilguy.com and then to the virgin oil analysis forum. Looked through the first ten pages. There are a lot of the oils listed here on there tested at various labs. Most are way under the amounts claimed. Sent some links to Billa. Brad Penn has a half a dozen tests on there. No Moly, most of the tests show under 900. All the Valvoline VR1 tests are showing around 800 PPM. You got to really do your homework. Think rotella is on there too. The manufacturers are lying or the testing labs are all wrong. The oil sellers are not going to fix your engine if you have problems.
We have any lawyers on here. How about a class action suit?
We have any lawyers on here. How about a class action suit?
12-15-2009, 11:57 AM
#58
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Sep 2001
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If not listed, please consider adding Chevron Delo 400 LE CJ-4 15W-40 to the list of those mfgs claiming 1200 zddp.
here's a recent pdf MSDS from chevron
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/...&docFormat=PDF
here's an older pdf article (w/virgin oil analyses) from turbodieselregister ... but it shows Three readily-available 15W-40 CJ-4 diesel truck oil VOAs including a Delo 400LE CJ-4 VOA that compares reasonably w/ chevron's above.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf
IIRC, Delo 400 LE 15W-40 CJ-4 is Not synthetic but is on MY area wal-mart shelves at under $12/gallon jug.
a simple observation:
here's a recent pdf MSDS from chevron
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/...&docFormat=PDF
here's an older pdf article (w/virgin oil analyses) from turbodieselregister ... but it shows Three readily-available 15W-40 CJ-4 diesel truck oil VOAs including a Delo 400LE CJ-4 VOA that compares reasonably w/ chevron's above.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf
IIRC, Delo 400 LE 15W-40 CJ-4 is Not synthetic but is on MY area wal-mart shelves at under $12/gallon jug.
a simple observation:
- if your motor oil requirements and preferences do Not include synthetic oils, and
- if about 1200 ppm aka 0.12% zddp meets your requirements, and
- if your climate & motor permits using 15W-40 weight oil, then
- there are several readily-available conventional (non-synthetic) diesel truck oils you're likely to find in your area discount stores; probably at least two on shelves rated CJ-4 AND having about 1200 ppm zddp.
- But if you Do require or prefer synthetics, then Do use them. But there may or may not be readily-available synthetic oil on your area discount store shelves having about 1200 ppm zddp.
12-15-2009, 12:17 PM
#59
Drifting
Becarefull of the oil now for the newer Diesel engines as they have lowered the zinc in the rotella-t to about 950 PPM as the older stuff I ran was in the 1400 range
I have switched to the CENPECO 15/40 which has 1582 PPM of zinc and is low in detergent, Oils high in detergent work against the zinc.
CENPECO 20/50 has 2300 PPM of zinc.
This is my summer time ride and try to buy the best oil I can find and the street rod guys use the 15/40 as well.
I have switched to the CENPECO 15/40 which has 1582 PPM of zinc and is low in detergent, Oils high in detergent work against the zinc.
CENPECO 20/50 has 2300 PPM of zinc.
This is my summer time ride and try to buy the best oil I can find and the street rod guys use the 15/40 as well.
12-15-2009, 01:12 PM
#60
Melting Slicks
Go to Bobistheoilguy.com and then to the virgin oil analysis forum. Looked through the first ten pages. There are a lot of the oils listed here on there tested at various labs. Most are way under the amounts claimed. Sent some links to Billa. Brad Penn has a half a dozen tests on there. No Moly, most of the tests show under 900. All the Valvoline VR1 tests are showing around 800 PPM. You got to really do your homework. Think rotella is on there too. The manufacturers are lying or the testing labs are all wrong. The oil sellers are not going to fix your engine if you have problems.
We have any lawyers on here. How about a class action suit?
We have any lawyers on here. How about a class action suit?
It’s important to note that Blackstone Laboratories is not an ISO accredited lab. I wouldn’t take their report as the final word.
