Will L98 or C4 LT1 Exh manifolds fit with my Z-Bar?
05-03-2010, 09:52 PM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Will L98 or C4 LT1 Exh manifolds fit with my Z-Bar?
Going to be swapping a set of L98 heads and TPI over onto my '72. Wondering if the C4 L98 exhaust manifolds or the C4 LT1 exhaust manifolds will fit with my Z-bar and driver side dip stick.
05-03-2010, 11:52 PM
#2
I'm not positive but I think it will. I bought ZZ4/TPI off a friend that had it installed in his 80/4 speed and he'd used C4 exhaust manifolds. It did not have a driver's side dipstick though. The manifold exit right under the center exhaust ports, just like all the C3 manifolds.
05-04-2010, 12:10 AM
#3
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I'm not positive but I think it will. I bought ZZ4/TPI off a friend that had it installed in his 80/4 speed and he'd used C4 exhaust manifolds. It did not have a driver's side dipstick though. The manifold exit right under the center exhaust ports, just like all the C3 manifolds.
05-04-2010, 08:21 AM
#4
Le Mans Master
I have C4 TPI manifolds, but I have a RH dipstick and an automatic. The only clearance problem I had is that the RH dump is close to the idler arm and the pipe had to be adjusted just a little. That is probably at least partially why GM did not have true 2 1/2" outlets on SB rams-horns in a Corvette after '64 or '65 (never in a C3).
05-04-2010, 12:42 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
05-04-2010, 04:18 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
I don't think the dipstick will be a problem. After looking at the photo, I don't think the z-bar will either. Isn't that bolt hole in the block a bit further back than the center dump? You can see how the pipe goes low and back. I don't think you will have issues. If you need any help on the TPI part, I have done that. I wrote an installation help guide too that may answer a few questions.
05-05-2010, 08:08 AM
#10
Le Mans Master
This has info you don't need also, but here it is in it's entirity. If you have any questions, please let me know and I'll try to help.
*******************
You have a unit
First you have to determine whether you want mass air flow or speed density. The C3 is more conducive to speed-density due to space issues. Mass-air flow is easier to make engine changes without PROM changes. If you are technically proficient enough to make a Camaro harness work they can be bought for $100 or less. I have been told that you can also use a 3.1 Corsica or Cavailier harness with a little work, it uses the same 7730 Speed-Density ECM. Aftermarket harnesses range from about $300 for Painless to $500 for Howell to $700 for Street and Performance. Howell makes a great harness, but for a Tuned Port they do not make one that will control the converter lockup on a 200R4/700R4/4L60 transmission. If you are running a manual or non-overdrive-automatic transmission I highly recommend them. I have heard great things about Street and Performance harness, but do not have first hand experience with them. I also have a Fuel Injection Specialties (FIS) harness and it is OK. The ECM can be had used for $10-50. A good external fuel pump will cost at least $100. I use an 88 Ford Truck external pump, $114 from CarQuest, made in Texas by Airtech (also available at O'Reileys). If you have a 78-82 you can use your fuel tank with an 82 sending unit and a TPI pump. 68-77 can also use a modified tank or Rock Valley makes a tank for these cars with a baffle and a GM internal fuel pump. Stock 82 tanks do not have a baffle contrary to popular belief. An aftermarket PROM with VATS and Emissions codes removed will be $100-200 depending on source and complexity. You will have to add an oxygen sensor to your exhaust, $20 for the sensor, $5 for the weld-in bung, and say $25 for an exhaust shop to weld it in if you can’t. Some harnesses use VSS and some do not. An auxiliary VSS sensor is around $75. I recommend using VSS to get better drivability. To install a TPI I say figure at least $800 plus the TPI unit and whatever repairs are necessary to bring it up to useable status. I have TPI/700R4 in my 69 Corvette (Howell harness) and an 83 Pickup (FIS harness) and I love it. Starts good, great torque, good fuel mileage, easy to swap onto stock engines (although both of mine are complete engines out of 90/91 ‘Vettes).
Differences in years
All Corvette TPI intake manifolds work with the older (through 86) iron heads and the factory aluminum heads through 91. F-body TPI intakes use the upright center bolts on 87-92 and thus fit all 87-95 iron heads (non LT1). Either can be swapped to fit the other with some drilling. F-body has the fuel lines come out on the drivers side and has a central port for EGR. Corvette has fuel lines that come out on the passenger side and has an external port for EGR. Corvette fuel rails fit F-body intakes and vise-versa. The runners are all the same through the years, but the LH runner has a hole for a 9th injector in the 85-88 runners. This can be plugged off if you get a nice LH runner and don’t want the 9th injector or decide to run speed-density. The plenums all physically interchange, but 90-92 have an extra vacuum port for the MAP sensor used with the speed-density computers and wiring. 89 is an odd year, it is mass-air flow but without the 9th injector. 89 up throttle bodies can be used on all years, but a 85-88 throttle body requires a ½” hole be drilled in the front of a 89-92 Plenum for idle air. 89-92 Throttle bodies have a more desirable cable attachment. The cable attaches around a circular linkage which has a smoother actuation than the straight linkage on the 85-88. The Corvettes have an aluminum plenum extension over the distributor, the F-body extensions are plastic. The Corvettes use an HEI coil-in-cap distributor for 85-91 (Delco 1103680). 85-86 F-body also used a big-cap distributor. 87-92 F-Body used a small cap distributor with an external coil (Delco 1103479). This same distributor is used in the 87-95 5.0/5.7/7.4 TBI injected trucks and pre-LT1 B-body. The F-body intake gets it's exhaust for EGR from the center passages in the heads like most SB Chevys. A Corvette intake gets it's EGR exhaust from the RH exhaust manifold/header through a flex-tube to an opening near the distributor-no center passages in the intake. If you are required to keep EGR and you have a Corvette intake, I recommend getting the C4 exhaust manifolds. They are like mini-headers, and have a 2 1/2" outlet. I have them on my 69 and like them.
As far as a throttle cable to use, on my Vette, I used a TPI Corvette cable, 1990 I think (now discontinued from GM) but you have to cut the end off inside the car and use a hood-release-cable end (Corvette Central 342138 "cable stop") to get it the correct cable length (the housing is OK). You must use a cable from the type car your throttle body came from if you want to have a chance of not cutting it. Again, 85-88 use a straight pull, while 89-92 have a circular attachment for more smooth actuation and so the inner cable is longer. On my 83 truck I used a TPI F-Body cable and it was OK, but I had to coil it up into a loop in the engine compartment because the housing was so long. I also TPI'd a 72 Chevy truck and used a 90 350 TBI truck cable for it. It was 1/2" short outside if anything, but I was pretty pleased with it all told-I didn't have to shorten it. In a Vette it might be about right. In all vehicles I've done you need a die grinder to square the firewall hole off a bit. All vehicles I've done used the late throttle-body.
I would look into a TPI. They start immediately in winter, have great vacuum, and will get great mileage. I can open the headlights and the wiper door at the same time with no hesitation at all-solid wooomp. With 3.70 gears (and a 700R4 overdrive) I get 18mpg city and 22+ highway. With 3.55 or 3.36 it would be even better. You can probably find a used Corvette TPI engine for $1000 and with an $800 harness/computer/fuel pump you would be set. On a 78-82 you can use the stock fuel tank with an 82 sending unit and TPI pump and be in better shape than 68-77 with an external pump. With the Vette TPI you would have aluminum heads that would remove weight. Even with an F-body iron-head TPI 350 it will be less weight than a stock intake. It will bolt up to everything in your car, use stock accessories, use your transmission, and the visual appeal is awesome. Don't be afraid of fuel injection, it really works.
As far as websites see:
www.corvettefaq.com for conversions or more TPI info at www.fuelinjection.com also www.jagsthatrun.com for misc hard to find conversion parts and info.
LT1
Not to get too deep into the differences in LT1s, there are basically 3 variations. There is the C4 ('92-96) and an F-body ('93-97) version which are 5.7L and have aluminum heads. There is a B-body ('94-96) which is 5.7L with iron heads that actually flow better than stock aluminum heads. There is also a 4.3L B-body (L99) version that you want to stay away from. There is an LT4 in '96 that is an upgraded LT1. All are dimensionally the same as far as bolt-ons. Corvette engines have 4-bolt mains, all others have 2-bolt. All are cast iron blocks. An LT1 is a very similar installation to a TPI. As far as the mechanical installation, the 700R4 and 4L60E transmissions are the same (same length, same basic dimension, mounting, yoke, etc.). You have to have a computer to run a 4L60E which you will have for the engine anyway. As far as the engine, an LT1 will bolt in and can use the same exhaust although you may want to use C4 LT1 manifolds to get true 2 1/2" outlets. The biggest difference between a TPI and an LT1 installation is accessories. TPI can use stock C3 accessories. LT1 has to use LT1 accessories and really needs C4 LT1 accessories. Both F-body and B-body put the a/c compressor low on the passenger side. This interferes with the frame and the right motor mount. You have to use electric fans on an LT1, there are no provisions for a mechanical fan (B-body has an optional one, but it is offset and won't work in a C3). The other difference is in air intake, most LT1s are mass air flow. Again, it is difficult to locate the MAF sensor in a C3. You are better to have it set up for speed-density. In a '78-'82 C3 you could still use an '82 sending unit but an LT1 fuel pump instead. You will want to stay with programming for an OBD1 (pre-'96) style setup, without multiple oxygen sensors. '96-'97 OBD2 engines are fine, you just don't use all the sensors. LT1 requires a custom radiator because of how the hoses run. There are differences in the Optispark, later is better and if you swap to a later cam you can add the later vented Optispark setup. The water pumps are bad to fail and wet the Optispark, so always replace the water pump when you do a swap. LT1s have better top end power that TPIs, but all things considered I'd rather stay with TPI for a cruiser or mild build-I just like the look and the low end torque. If you want more power, LT1 is better; or just step up to an LSx.
*******************
You have a unit
First you have to determine whether you want mass air flow or speed density. The C3 is more conducive to speed-density due to space issues. Mass-air flow is easier to make engine changes without PROM changes. If you are technically proficient enough to make a Camaro harness work they can be bought for $100 or less. I have been told that you can also use a 3.1 Corsica or Cavailier harness with a little work, it uses the same 7730 Speed-Density ECM. Aftermarket harnesses range from about $300 for Painless to $500 for Howell to $700 for Street and Performance. Howell makes a great harness, but for a Tuned Port they do not make one that will control the converter lockup on a 200R4/700R4/4L60 transmission. If you are running a manual or non-overdrive-automatic transmission I highly recommend them. I have heard great things about Street and Performance harness, but do not have first hand experience with them. I also have a Fuel Injection Specialties (FIS) harness and it is OK. The ECM can be had used for $10-50. A good external fuel pump will cost at least $100. I use an 88 Ford Truck external pump, $114 from CarQuest, made in Texas by Airtech (also available at O'Reileys). If you have a 78-82 you can use your fuel tank with an 82 sending unit and a TPI pump. 68-77 can also use a modified tank or Rock Valley makes a tank for these cars with a baffle and a GM internal fuel pump. Stock 82 tanks do not have a baffle contrary to popular belief. An aftermarket PROM with VATS and Emissions codes removed will be $100-200 depending on source and complexity. You will have to add an oxygen sensor to your exhaust, $20 for the sensor, $5 for the weld-in bung, and say $25 for an exhaust shop to weld it in if you can’t. Some harnesses use VSS and some do not. An auxiliary VSS sensor is around $75. I recommend using VSS to get better drivability. To install a TPI I say figure at least $800 plus the TPI unit and whatever repairs are necessary to bring it up to useable status. I have TPI/700R4 in my 69 Corvette (Howell harness) and an 83 Pickup (FIS harness) and I love it. Starts good, great torque, good fuel mileage, easy to swap onto stock engines (although both of mine are complete engines out of 90/91 ‘Vettes).
Differences in years
All Corvette TPI intake manifolds work with the older (through 86) iron heads and the factory aluminum heads through 91. F-body TPI intakes use the upright center bolts on 87-92 and thus fit all 87-95 iron heads (non LT1). Either can be swapped to fit the other with some drilling. F-body has the fuel lines come out on the drivers side and has a central port for EGR. Corvette has fuel lines that come out on the passenger side and has an external port for EGR. Corvette fuel rails fit F-body intakes and vise-versa. The runners are all the same through the years, but the LH runner has a hole for a 9th injector in the 85-88 runners. This can be plugged off if you get a nice LH runner and don’t want the 9th injector or decide to run speed-density. The plenums all physically interchange, but 90-92 have an extra vacuum port for the MAP sensor used with the speed-density computers and wiring. 89 is an odd year, it is mass-air flow but without the 9th injector. 89 up throttle bodies can be used on all years, but a 85-88 throttle body requires a ½” hole be drilled in the front of a 89-92 Plenum for idle air. 89-92 Throttle bodies have a more desirable cable attachment. The cable attaches around a circular linkage which has a smoother actuation than the straight linkage on the 85-88. The Corvettes have an aluminum plenum extension over the distributor, the F-body extensions are plastic. The Corvettes use an HEI coil-in-cap distributor for 85-91 (Delco 1103680). 85-86 F-body also used a big-cap distributor. 87-92 F-Body used a small cap distributor with an external coil (Delco 1103479). This same distributor is used in the 87-95 5.0/5.7/7.4 TBI injected trucks and pre-LT1 B-body. The F-body intake gets it's exhaust for EGR from the center passages in the heads like most SB Chevys. A Corvette intake gets it's EGR exhaust from the RH exhaust manifold/header through a flex-tube to an opening near the distributor-no center passages in the intake. If you are required to keep EGR and you have a Corvette intake, I recommend getting the C4 exhaust manifolds. They are like mini-headers, and have a 2 1/2" outlet. I have them on my 69 and like them.
As far as a throttle cable to use, on my Vette, I used a TPI Corvette cable, 1990 I think (now discontinued from GM) but you have to cut the end off inside the car and use a hood-release-cable end (Corvette Central 342138 "cable stop") to get it the correct cable length (the housing is OK). You must use a cable from the type car your throttle body came from if you want to have a chance of not cutting it. Again, 85-88 use a straight pull, while 89-92 have a circular attachment for more smooth actuation and so the inner cable is longer. On my 83 truck I used a TPI F-Body cable and it was OK, but I had to coil it up into a loop in the engine compartment because the housing was so long. I also TPI'd a 72 Chevy truck and used a 90 350 TBI truck cable for it. It was 1/2" short outside if anything, but I was pretty pleased with it all told-I didn't have to shorten it. In a Vette it might be about right. In all vehicles I've done you need a die grinder to square the firewall hole off a bit. All vehicles I've done used the late throttle-body.
I would look into a TPI. They start immediately in winter, have great vacuum, and will get great mileage. I can open the headlights and the wiper door at the same time with no hesitation at all-solid wooomp. With 3.70 gears (and a 700R4 overdrive) I get 18mpg city and 22+ highway. With 3.55 or 3.36 it would be even better. You can probably find a used Corvette TPI engine for $1000 and with an $800 harness/computer/fuel pump you would be set. On a 78-82 you can use the stock fuel tank with an 82 sending unit and TPI pump and be in better shape than 68-77 with an external pump. With the Vette TPI you would have aluminum heads that would remove weight. Even with an F-body iron-head TPI 350 it will be less weight than a stock intake. It will bolt up to everything in your car, use stock accessories, use your transmission, and the visual appeal is awesome. Don't be afraid of fuel injection, it really works.
As far as websites see:
www.corvettefaq.com for conversions or more TPI info at www.fuelinjection.com also www.jagsthatrun.com for misc hard to find conversion parts and info.
LT1
Not to get too deep into the differences in LT1s, there are basically 3 variations. There is the C4 ('92-96) and an F-body ('93-97) version which are 5.7L and have aluminum heads. There is a B-body ('94-96) which is 5.7L with iron heads that actually flow better than stock aluminum heads. There is also a 4.3L B-body (L99) version that you want to stay away from. There is an LT4 in '96 that is an upgraded LT1. All are dimensionally the same as far as bolt-ons. Corvette engines have 4-bolt mains, all others have 2-bolt. All are cast iron blocks. An LT1 is a very similar installation to a TPI. As far as the mechanical installation, the 700R4 and 4L60E transmissions are the same (same length, same basic dimension, mounting, yoke, etc.). You have to have a computer to run a 4L60E which you will have for the engine anyway. As far as the engine, an LT1 will bolt in and can use the same exhaust although you may want to use C4 LT1 manifolds to get true 2 1/2" outlets. The biggest difference between a TPI and an LT1 installation is accessories. TPI can use stock C3 accessories. LT1 has to use LT1 accessories and really needs C4 LT1 accessories. Both F-body and B-body put the a/c compressor low on the passenger side. This interferes with the frame and the right motor mount. You have to use electric fans on an LT1, there are no provisions for a mechanical fan (B-body has an optional one, but it is offset and won't work in a C3). The other difference is in air intake, most LT1s are mass air flow. Again, it is difficult to locate the MAF sensor in a C3. You are better to have it set up for speed-density. In a '78-'82 C3 you could still use an '82 sending unit but an LT1 fuel pump instead. You will want to stay with programming for an OBD1 (pre-'96) style setup, without multiple oxygen sensors. '96-'97 OBD2 engines are fine, you just don't use all the sensors. LT1 requires a custom radiator because of how the hoses run. There are differences in the Optispark, later is better and if you swap to a later cam you can add the later vented Optispark setup. The water pumps are bad to fail and wet the Optispark, so always replace the water pump when you do a swap. LT1s have better top end power that TPIs, but all things considered I'd rather stay with TPI for a cruiser or mild build-I just like the look and the low end torque. If you want more power, LT1 is better; or just step up to an LSx.
05-05-2010, 10:15 AM
#11
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Thank you!
I have already bought an almost complete TPI with harness from a '90 'Vette. It is only missing the ECM. I'll have to find one of those from a '90-'91 'Vette. I plan to use a frame mounted external fuel pump.
I would like to add decent set of heads while I am at it. Budget won't allow for a set of AFRs or anything like that. I'm thinking of 113 L98s or ZZ4 take offs. I know they aren't great, but they are better than what I have and they are affordable. I would go iron Vortec, but that requires a $500 intake (base) to run TPI. Add that to the cost of the heads, and I could have just bought a damn good set of Trick Flows.
I have already bought an almost complete TPI with harness from a '90 'Vette. It is only missing the ECM. I'll have to find one of those from a '90-'91 'Vette. I plan to use a frame mounted external fuel pump.
I would like to add decent set of heads while I am at it. Budget won't allow for a set of AFRs or anything like that. I'm thinking of 113 L98s or ZZ4 take offs. I know they aren't great, but they are better than what I have and they are affordable. I would go iron Vortec, but that requires a $500 intake (base) to run TPI. Add that to the cost of the heads, and I could have just bought a damn good set of Trick Flows.
05-05-2010, 12:15 PM
#12
Le Mans Master
Thank you!
I have already bought an almost complete TPI with harness from a '90 'Vette. It is only missing the ECM. I'll have to find one of those from a '90-'91 'Vette. I plan to use a frame mounted external fuel pump.
I would like to add decent set of heads while I am at it. Budget won't allow for a set of AFRs or anything like that. I'm thinking of 113 L98s or ZZ4 take offs. I know they aren't great, but they are better than what I have and they are affordable. I would go iron Vortec, but that requires a $500 intake (base) to run TPI. Add that to the cost of the heads, and I could have just bought a damn good set of Trick Flows.
I have already bought an almost complete TPI with harness from a '90 'Vette. It is only missing the ECM. I'll have to find one of those from a '90-'91 'Vette. I plan to use a frame mounted external fuel pump.
I would like to add decent set of heads while I am at it. Budget won't allow for a set of AFRs or anything like that. I'm thinking of 113 L98s or ZZ4 take offs. I know they aren't great, but they are better than what I have and they are affordable. I would go iron Vortec, but that requires a $500 intake (base) to run TPI. Add that to the cost of the heads, and I could have just bought a damn good set of Trick Flows.
PROM is the same on the 7730 ECM and the weatherproof underhood Vette ECM. Underhood is a great place to go if you have room. Did you get just the TPI intake or the whole motor? If I had a '90 engine complete, I'd use it complete instead of the original. With a '90 L98 you get a roller cam, hypereutectic pistons, 1-pc rear seal, and dipstick on the other side. The aluminum L98 heads are as you say-OK by todays standards. I'd pull your original engine complete from air cleaner to oil pan and set it aside. Do you have the '90 serpentine accessories too? The Nippendenso a/c compressor is nice, and you might be able to use the original a/c manifold. If you use C4 accessories, get rid of the trouble-prone CS130 alternator and go to a CS144, or an 84-85 C4 alternator, especially without electric fans. It all fits nicely in a C3.
05-05-2010, 12:41 PM
#13
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05-05-2010, 02:09 PM
#14
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
It was. The bolt had stripped out and elongated the hole in the block. The bar was holding the stud in the block. I had to re-drill the hole in the block out, heli-coil it, and put a new stud in. I rebuilt the Z-Bar while I had it out. It's all correct now.
05-05-2010, 02:13 PM
#15
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Just the manifold up. I agree, the later motors are much better, but this one had too many miles for the $$$.
05-05-2010, 03:51 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
