JB46

So I am in the process of rebuilding the front suspension. Basically I am replacing everything on the front suspension...Everything. This should be finished in about a week and I am moving onto the steering system.

So Borgeson offers their updated box/Kit for about $750. VBP offers the same ratio box/kit for about $1000. VBP tells me their box is new versus a rebuilt unit from Borgeson. True statement?

So question #1: Is the extra money for VBP's unit worth the cost? and has anybody used their box? Any feedback from users would be appreciated.

Question #2: I went to the expense of replacing everything on the front end Control arms, poly bushings, tie rods.larger sway bar, springs and shocks...you get the idea. Would rebuilding the stock system be the way to go? Or is a steering box upgrade, head and shoulders above the stock system?

I don't mind spending money if I'm getting value in return.

This forum and it's posters are such a great resource and I value the opinions expressed...Thanks in advance your input is greatly appreciated.

Jeff

aussiejohn

Jeff,
Without a doubt use the Borgeson box. Yes, they sometimes have to use a "second hand" box, but they completely disassemble it and replace anything that is worn. They machine off the non-Corvette mounting flange, then TIG weld on a bracket that is drilled to match the standard mounting holes in your chassis.

Bear in mind that all boxes made for the C3 Corvette have to be modified to some extent, as there is no such thing as an unmodified integral power steering box that is a direct replacement for the Corvette manual steering box.

Then they re-spline the sector shaft to suit the Corvette Pitman arm, so that you re-use your original Pitman arm. Then the box is re-assembled to better than original tolerances. Finally, they give the whole thing a three year written guarantee.

The box has a 12.7:1 ratio with only 2 and a half turns lock to lock. Unlike the original power system, the Borgeson box gives you minimal boost in the straight ahead position, but the boost increases the further you turn the wheel, such as when parking. Just like in a modern car.

There really is no better way to bring your Corvette's steering into the 21st Century than the complete Borgeson conversion kit. From Saginaw pumps, hose kits, rag joints, drag link adapters right down to the integral power steering box, Borgeson have everything you need to transform your car's driving characteristics.

Then Jeff, you will "Feel the Road" as they say in their ads. Finally, as to which is the better kit, do a search on this Forum for guys who've fitted them both and do the maths.

Regards from Down Under

aussiejohn

Rotonda

I have also installed a Borgeson box. One thing I would recommend with this box are upper A-arms that allow more caster adjustment.

Some users have commented that the Borgeson box feels 'over-assisted' or 'too sensitive'. C3's tend to lose front end adjustment as the frames sag over time, and you cannor achieve the 4 to 5 degrees caster that will give the car the tracking and feel of a more modern car without this additional mod.

427Hotrod

I recently installed the Borgeson kit on my '67 and detailed it all in an article for Corvette Enthusiast. Starts on page 42.

http://editions.amospublishing.com/K...spx?d=20100901

My car was a manual steering car so I was starting from scratch.

We just did a 2500 mile cross country road trip in it and the handling was great. I've had it well over 135mph and it drives fine.....no leaks and no issues.

JIM

jb78L-82

I have heard great things about GTR1999's rebuilds on the forum. He can be reached on digitalcorvettes.com. He is located in New Haven CT and does steering box rebuilds on your original box. I am getting ready to remove my box and I will bring it to him in NH CT since I live in RI. We have spoken numerous times and he will take the box apart in front of me or will send you pictures of what he finds, replaces everything that needs to be replaced, and hand adjusts each box (basically blue printing it) before he return it to you. The original boxes were never hand adjusted from the factory just slapped together from the factory. From what I have heard from others, the rebuilt box is much better than when the car was new and will be very tight and precise. I was interested in this route since I wanted to retain the OEM steering mechanism and the OEM box. Best of all from the prices I see for Borgeson, Gary is much cheaper! I was quoted depending on how worn the internals are anywhere from about $200-$450 for a blue printed rebuild and best of all the steering will be much better than when new. Just another option.

pauldana

why not go with a new modern rack and pinion system... a GREAT upgrade and VERY easy...

ddn

Another vote for Borgeson.

auavette

I second that motion.
That is exactly what I did with my 76.

Solid LT1

Why not?

Because the sheet metal mounting brackets are pretty scary to anyone who has the least appreciation for what is going on when a Vette is travelling down the road at 65MPH.

Because the installation requires moditfying the stock vehicle and is not reversable like a Saginaw intregal boost gear box installation (I put a "Jeep box" on a 70 LT-1 roadster, I'm not cutting or drilling on that Vette!)

Because there have been reports of breakage on installations on this forum (maybe they have it solved now but the Steeriods system has failed more than 1 owner in the past.)

Because the steering shaft linkage to get to the steering rack input looks like a complete "shadetree" botch of an enginnering job (again with scary sheet metal brackets and rod ends that can fail under stress.) Really how many couplings and compuond angles do you really want it to take to reach your steering gear box?

Should I continue.....?

eagle275

MN80Vette

In your opinion, the Steeroids design looks like "shadetree" "botch" of an engineering job. You state they "can fail under stress." Repeat, in your opinion. You do not have the statistical evidence to support your conclusions; anecdotal reports at best. Of those Steeroids components that failed, I have not read anything that supports the conclusion that the root cause of the failure was the Steeroids design. Did the installation(s) conform to application and instructions? What are the criteria for concluding the design is a shadetree botch of an engineering job?

I work in a highly regulated engineering environment. I know about engineering and evidence-based quality assessments. People can die if the products I work on fail. Common fault analysis and quality factors that are routine to me are absent from your post. I hope readers understand the difference between opinion and evidence-based conclusions.

I know for fact that my Steeroids have performed under the stress of spirited daily driving, autocross, and drag racing for 5.75 years without ANY evidence of stress. The finish on all the gussets, brackets, and rod ends aren't even cracked. If the base materials were stressed and about to fail, the stress would show up first in the finish.

For every failed Steeroids system, there are probably one, two, or more orders of magnitude of Steeroids systems that have not failed. So, no, you should not continue.

I can't speak for the Borgeson box, but I recommend the Steeroids system based my personal experience. The system was a true bolt-on installation and has met or exceeded my expectations.

pauldana

I will do my best to rebuttal to this...


1. this "sheet metal" you speak of is almost 2/10" thick... pretty thick sheet metal... how thick is the frame?... all modern cars including new vetts and race cars go well over 65 mph on a rack and pinion... and to be honest, the mishmash of rods going back and forth seem a lot more flimsy to me imho...

2. i had to do 0 none nada modifications just bolted up into the stock holes and fit like a glove, I did through the old system in the trash can, but it would be as easy as pie to put it back if i had wanted to.

3. i have known of none, but even if, there has been stock systems that have also gone out.... and if it were such a poorly designed system, VBP and Steeroids would have so many law suites up the butt from wrecked cars that there would be no way they would produce it.... but they do produce it and I for one will attest to all its positive benefits, like better control and handling. Maybe that is why all modern cars have gone this way??

4. want to see "compound angles and couplings? look at the hodgepodge of rods going back and forth under the car....

5. yes please...


hey, the bottom line is it is your car and you can do anything to it you like, but imho, i think you are giving the R&P a bad rap, and you may want to take another look at it ..... or ask others that have gone that way..... I do not know about the home made Jeep R&P but the professionally done ones work and feel great...

I would bet you would find a positive response to the R&P 20:1 for


but anyway, again... good luck in your choice, I am sure you will be happy what ever way you choose to go.

mrvette

I did my own rack in winter 01-02 same rack as commercially available...out of a '92 Grand Am....cost me <200 bux total, ....

been there since, trouble free....knock on wood....

and my brackets are maybe 1/4 the weight and complexity of any aftermarket rack....

ie...better design....

doing it again....I"d go the Borgeson Jeep box conversion....

just for simplicity.....

Bob Heine

One day when my 72 BB was stopped in the driveway, waiting for the garage door to open, the steering made a hard left turn. I wasn't touching the wheel and I have to say it was scary. Would have been a lot scarier at 65mph. The stock power steering system doesn't reach "shadetree" caliber for me.

The Borgeson box looks like a great upgrade and I was tempted to go that way. Unfortunately I had just spent $700 for Jet-Hot coated Hooker Supercomp headers for my big block and the idea of dimpling them to fit wasn't real attractive (grinding the $700 Borgeson box wasn't any better).

I chose the Steeroids rack & pinion system and if the mounting brackets are sheet metal, they've got some real thick and heavy paint on them. I did a quick check and they seem to be more than 1/8" plate. The u-bands that hold the rack to the brackets are about the same thickness and that's about twice as thick as the brackets that hold the rack on my 87 Corvette.

I followed the directions pretty carefully and the only modification I made to my Corvette was a notch in the inner fender splash shield. I could have put it on without that modification but there's no reason I can't unbolt the Steeroids and put the original truck steering back in. Installation involved wrenches. Wrenches, not torches, welders, drills or air tools. I guess I could have used an air ratchet but I like to feel the hardware going together.

I think the multiple universal joint issue is valid. I would have preferred one simple u-joint instead of one simple and a second compound joint. On the other hand the joints provided are certainly more comforting than a rag joint. After reading Solid LT1's scathing comments I decided to check out the professional design used in a C4 steering system. Remember, the Steeroids system has a huge spherical rod end holding the steering shaft in alignment. My 87 steering shaft has no support between the u-joint and gearbox. In fact the shaft has a rag joint in the middle. Nothing wrong with the design but if the Steeroids setup scares you, don't buy a C4 unless you are willing to put a power assist cylinder in there....

snoopykissedlucy

Am I the only one flabbergasted by the price of rebuilding a steering box? $400-$700

I can see a transmission job or a short block rebuild for $500 but a steering box?
I have no idea what goes into rebuilding a box but dang......it cant be that hard right?

HamadUP

No, it's not that hard at all, I can harldy turn a wrench and I rebuilt mine in one day, just followed the GTR1999 thread on digitalcorvettes.com and now I have a nice and tight steering box. Just get yourself the rebuild kit, a micrometer, a feeler gauge, and some high temp synth. grease.

HamadUP

I did some extensive search about the rack and pinion conversion, and I really can't find anything wrong about it, it upgrades your car to a newer technology and makes a lot of extra room (esp. if you have a BB), on the other hand, the Borgeson kit is still a recirculating ***** system, and its just don't belong to the 21st century.

My '07 Yukon has a similar multiple U-joints shaft just like the steeroid setup, and to date, no one complained about it.

manfroni

I installed the Borgeson box kit early this spring, perfect fit and the car drives better than it ever did! The best mod I have ever done.

pauldana

1. yes true, i did notice this, but you will only notice this in very tight turning like a very tight parking situation.

2. not true, this issue was taken car of.. Quote from Steeroids site: "An added feature of our kit is that you can adjust for bump steer. The only rack and pinion kit that does!"

3. not really true eather.. again, from Steeroids site:1) TURNING RESPONSIVENESS.

This involves several related facts but the most important is the slop through a steering box. A new steering box can have appreciable slop and a loose feel. In addition a SteeroidsTM has a lower turns ratio, typically under three turns lock to lock, whereas stock systems can have up to five turns!


and a little more:
2) ON CENTER FEEL.

Recirculating ball steering boxes have vague on center feel due to the inherent looseness of two sets of gears through which the steering input must go through to reach the wheels. The gear sets are: the worm gear (with the recirculating *****) and then the sector gear. Additionally there is play in the servo valve for the power assist. A modern rack and pinion contains just one set of gears and a very responsive servo valve that virtually eliminates play in the steering. This reduction in gear sets, and improved servo valving result in steering response that is immediate when a steering input is given from the centered position rather than a 1/2 inch of travel on the steering wheel to take up the slack before the steering responds. This translates into smaller input corrections necessary to keep the car driving straight, rather than constantly moving back and forth in the "dead zone" to be where the steering responds

3) LESS WEIGHT, LESS COMPLEXITY.

A SteeroidsTM Rack and Pinion Kit is typically 20-25% lighter than the steering box and linkage it replaces. The rack & pinion on Steeroids has an aluminum alloy housing, and the tie rods are aluminum as well. These lighter components replace the steel center link, tie rods, and heavy cast iron steering box. Fewer, lighter parts cut the weight on the vehicle’s front end.

4) ADJUSTABLE FOR BUMP STEERING.

SteeroidsTM Kits come complete with everything you will need to set up you car to minimize bump steering. Other kits use the factory, non-adjustable tie rod ends, but not SteeroidsTM. Our design solution provides adjustability. It is important to check and adjust bump steer if you have lowered your vehicle, or if you want to improve on something the factory did not consider. What is bump steer? The tendency for the vehicle to unexpectedly swerve when you hit a bump. It is annoying and dangerous.


imho, if you are going for a stock look and setup, the Borgeson is a great way to go, looks good, good solid product, well made and upgrade over stock......but if you are going for performance and want to bring you car into to 21st century then the R&P is the way to go....

pauldana

very good rebuttal!!!

when I was looking, I did hear many good things about the Borgeson unit..........

but the R&P was a better fit for me... thx...