scooter53

I am completing a front end suspension rebuild with new tie rods on my '70 and cannot get the steering correct. I know it was screwed up before as well because you could turn much tighter in one direction than the other. Additionally the right tie rod was adjusted much shorter than the other.

In trying to find the steering box center according to previous threads, I first found the center by moving left and right to the steering box limits. But then to get the flat part of the shaft to the 12 o'clock position, and the pitman arm straight forward I had to turn it 1/4 turn to the left. The right tie rod is at it's minimum length adjustment and the right wheel still points slightly left.

Could this be a frame straightness issue? There are no obvious damage that I can see but I don't know if that is even something I would be able to see.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Belgian1979vette

Make sure there is not too much play in the steering housing. If there is you'll never get her aligned properly.

As for the center. The way you did it is they way it is done. Turning from one stop to the other and counting the amount of turns+ turning it halfway back. The pitman arm turning point on the housing and the connection on the power valve should be in one line as far as I can remember. You could measure the length of your tie rods from center to center and set them equal. I'm a little doubtfull you could set toe in without a alignment rack.

If the frame is not straight you'll find out while aligning as it there would be a difference in the amount of shims left to right. Otherwise you could measure from the lower A-arm rear bolt towards a fixed spot under the seats (like a hole) on the opposite side an see if it's equal left to right. I think that is about it with a body on it.

calwldlife

strange.
are the alignment shims balanced side to side?
I guess either the wheel is off spline or the stearing arm off spline at the box?
I would try to get the tierods equal and see which spline was at fault.

7T1vette

When you initially 'centered' the steering box, how far off of 12 o'clock was the flat? It should have been almost exactly lined up. If it was off by a significant amount, that steering box has been service/worked-on/screwed-up and I think it would need to be corrected internally to get it assembled properly.

Jim_Shea is the 'resident expert' on the C3 steering systems and you should get his input before proceeding any further.

calwldlife

it ain't that difficult to go lock to lock and back to see if
the wheel was put back wrong and aligned to it.
so, first lock to lock and put wheel on proper spline.
then visually turn tierods EQUALY side to side to straighten tires

going to need an align anyway.

calwldlife

"turning one direction more"

curious statement,
does that mean easier/fater or different turning circle?
(bad/wrong adjusted.) power steering valve can do this.
did the car crab? rear end out to one side or the other?
how is the rear?

I am trying to help you.
I want to understand what you are seeing, feeling.

If the rear align is out i guess the front wheel could have been
skewed to the rear thrust line.

Bent frame? I guess.

rag joint?
pitman arm?

scooter53

I read Jim Shea's paper and the following quote led me to believe the box could not be put together wrong.

All of the steering components (i.e. steering linkage, pitman arm, steering gear, flexible
coupling, steering column, steering hub, and steering wheel) were designed by General
Motors and Saginaw Steering Gear Division such that they could be put together with
great integrity, reliability, and dependability. They were designed so that they only went
together one way and when assembled there was good visual indication that the assembly
was correct.

But I suppose the with it as far off as it is, 90 deg, then maybe something was forced together wrong. Looks like it is time for a steering box rebuild.

calwldlife

the pitman arm spline can be off.
the rest is pretty straight forward.
just don't over adjust the lash. supposed to be done with a torque wrench.

scooter53

Well this all started with the rear end. I replaced the strut rods and all the bushings back there. Did not take it to an alignment shop yet but the initial measurements I dis were real close.

The car tracks straight, no crab.

the turning circly was much larger to the right than the left. Larger than my dodge 3/4 ton 4 wheel drive. And the wheel would actually hit the frame going to the left, so I know it was screwed up from the start. I measured the old tie rods and the right one was adjusted 1 inch shorter than the left.

The entire front end has now been replaced, new a-arms, new tie rods, new mono spring, etc. So basically I am starting from scratch.

calwldlife

what does your gut tell you?
you see it. did bubba get the pitman arm off and put it back wrong?
rag joint?
are the tierods in the proper holes on the spindles?


I feel your WTF about the difference in tierod length.

my 76 ray

The pitman arm has splines that allow it to go on the output shaft of the steering gear at 4 different positions that are 90 degrees from each other. You may need to pull the pitman arm and reposition it on the steering gear shaft.

jnb5101

you have excatly the same problem i had after an alignment shop did my front end after a rebuild. they had the tie-rods set at unequal lengths, so that the steering gear reached max deflection before the wheel stops (that funny looking bolt on the lower control arm) made contact.
center the steering wheel and turn the tie-rods an equal number of turns(opposite direction) on each side until each side has as close to the same length as possible. using equal number of turns will keep the toe-in from changing.

scooter53

Well my gut tells me that something is definitely outta whack. And I know bubba has gotten his hands on this car from other issues. It's just a matter of tracking it down.

Rag joint is good.

The original tie rods were in the rear holes. But according to the service manual:
"Caution: Do not use the rearward hole on the steering arm with power steering equipment or interference may result"



So I moved the new ones to the forward holes.

calwldlife

wrong holes did cross my mind.
and I mentioned the pitman arm.
sounds like it all will be fine after you de bubba it.

Belgian1979vette

If you really tighten the screw on top of your housing (the one to remove play) and you turn your steering wheel, you can actually feel it going over the center as there is some sort of heavy point arount that. Place it exactly at that point and look at your pitman arm. It should point straight backward (towards your power valve stud which should be inline with the axle coming out of your steering btw). Then make your tie rods the same length and go to an alignment shop.

gcusmano74

If one of the steering arms that is bolted to the spindle is bent, that would mess up the centering of the steering gear. Also your bumpsteer will be breathtaking, and the car will feel very squirrelly, even if your alignment guy says he set everything to spec. Check the distance from the outer tie rod end to the inside of the wheel. Compare the left side to the right. Should be the same.

my 76 ray

Yep. That's a good way to check if the pitman arm is on correctly. Just make sure you don't over tighten it and when you are done, make sure you adjust it so that it clears the "bump" over center without interference.

Once you verify that the pitman arm is correct, you can adjust the tie rods like JNB5101 described.

Good luck.

scooter53

I separated the pitman arm from the control valve so I could check the box with out any interference. I went from stop to stop and as advertised the exact center of movement ended up with the flat part of the shaft at 12 o'clock and pitman arm straight forward. There was really no play in the box. I don't think there is a problem there.

Next, with the wheels at the proper ride height, I adjust the tie rods to a zero toe in/out just so I could have a reference point to start with. And then, by turning both tie rods equally, I got them the exact same length. Rechecked the toe and still good to go.

With wheels straight and steering box centered, the pitman arm was nowhere near close t the control valve. As you can see it is over an inch off.



What am I missing?
The steering arms are the exact same distance from the wheels and don't look deformed in any way.

Could the frame be so outta whack that it could be this far off? I ran some measurements from the lower ball joints to the rear of the car and they are within 1/8

SuperBuickGuy

it's time to start measuring parts to make sure someone didn't swap a non-correct part.... classic is someone changing the adjusters; that part is (as I recently found out) a Corvette (almost) only part.... it's longer.

As for turning circles - you did verify that the turn-stops are still in place and not bent? I spent quality time on a truck with the same problem... that was its issue.

Belgian1979vette

Normally when the toe is adjusted the steering wheel (which is still attached) is blocked. You have no certainty that the center link didn't move.

Like said, find the center of the steering housing. If you disconnect the flange of the steering column put a inch pound torque wrench on it and look for the point where you measure the highest torque. That's your center. Your pitman arm should point straight down at that moment. If so reconnect the pitman arm to the power valve and reset toe with the steering wheel blocked.