Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview
07-08-2002, 06:13 PM
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Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview
As Merlin 1 comes to a close, I’ve begun plans for Merlin 2. A lot of the timing for all this will depend on how Merlin 1 behaves & whether or not the economy and stock market ever decide to get a clue. I just wanted to share some of what I’m pondering for the next version. I’ve learned so much about building streetable monster cars in the past 3 years that I’m now ready to apply all that learning to what I think will be the most out of control street car ever built. You guys are all going to get to witness it here. The plans outlined below will make Merlin 1 seem downright conservative. The irony is that the second version will not only be WAY stronger than the first, but lighter & more stealth looking in outward appearance. Here’s the plan so far. I’ll update this as we get further along. The purpose of this second car is to end the debate of ricer vs muscle car once & for all. I don’t care WHAT you do to a Skyline, it will never ever be able to produce the kinds of numbers Merlin2 will – whether on a street or a raceway.
Originally I was thinking about going with the AllStar 708, but I have since done more research into the Merlin Lite block. As my forum call name implies, I’m a huge fan of the Merlin blocks. As you can see here: http://worldcastings.com/docs/catalog/pg31.pdf The Merlin Lite can be bored up to 4.6”. If we go with the tall 11.625” deck, which is a raised cam model, we can go as high as a 5.85 stroke. Plugging those numbers in here: http://www.prestage.com/carmath/calc_cid.asp shows a displacement of 777.77. In my mind, this would probably be the largest engine ever put in a street car. It would also only weigh 150 pounds. If any of you have heard of such a thing already done, please send me info! I think it will be a first.
Next, piggybacking off the great work done by Monty, this time around I’m going to go with twin turbo. Originally that’s what I wanted for Merlin 1, but a combination of events led me down the Whipple path. First, a local shop assured me that twin turbos would never fit in a C3. Hah!! Boy did they screw up. I was ready to throw the whole project their way too! After that fiasco, I did more research & determined that the twin screw Whipple design was more efficient down at the lower rpms. While this is very definitely true & Merlin 1 will have some torque figures at the low rpm’s like you’ve never seen in a street car, this is a bad thing!! Traction wins races – all other things help equal. If you can’t hook the tires, you can’t put up the killer numbers. If you look at Monty’s dyno, his car is making as much power as my big block & he’s developing the power way up higher. He’ll be able to get more traction off the line & then bring it on home once hooked up. Hands down, it’s a better setup for a street car.
Presently I’m looking at 2 of the Garret T76’s. Plugging in the engine numbers listed above at: http://www.turbofast.com.au/tfcalc.html combined with rpm of 7,600 ambient Seattle air temp of 50 degrees, Engine VE of 80 boost pressure of 25psi & the listed compressor efficiency of 78 & listed intercooler efficiency of 75, I come up with around 2,500HP being possible out of this engine. Combine this with a Pro Shot Fogger 2 system & I think numbers approaching 3,000HP are theoretically possible out of this thing. I welcome input from some of the forum experts. Are there any flaws in my theory? Can you make any recommendations other than the T76? I’m also in love with the Hogan manifold Monty used. They have a dual TPI version with NO2 integrated http://www.hogansracingmanifolds.com/main.htm This would work perfectly. Even with the 11.625 deck height, there is the very real possibility that this thing could fit under a high rise twin turbo hood. Talk about THE ultimate sleeper!! I still feel even with those totally absurd HP numbers above, if this thing was detuned & run with only 6 psi on the street, it could be streetable. HP could probably be brought down around 1,500 or so which is right around where both Monty & I will be capable with our present systems.
Although I went with the ROD 6 speed in the first version, I will have no choice but to go 4L80E on the second one. Tom’s rear end will be required as well. I’ve discussed with Art Morrison about building a frame designed after the C-5, but having a C-3 body. This way we can take advantage of the better geometry, use rack & pinion, coil overs etc. This frame setup will be stronger & also drop a few extra hundred pounds off the car. All tube chrome moly. Combine that with the lighter engine & we’ll have a car weighing potentially under 3,000 pounds with nearly 3,000HP. To put that in perspective, this would be like one of the new *** bikes cranking out over 450HP. Can you imagine!!
I was considering a C2 body, but I think I’m going to keep it C3. Since this will certainly need to be a full cage design, I was thinking about another 74 but with the 80-82 style body & glass T-tops. I’ve always like the glass tops & I could pretty much hide the full cage. You would be able to see it from the inside, but not from outside. I can’t even imagine what a 777 would sound like. Talk about shaking the earth!!
OK, so that’s my further decent into madness. I welcome all comments – even if just to say “son, you need professional medical help”. I’m especially eager to hear from Monty & others who have done similar projects about the feasibility of such a thing. If we can pull it off, this will be a car that will be talked about for many years to come.
Originally I was thinking about going with the AllStar 708, but I have since done more research into the Merlin Lite block. As my forum call name implies, I’m a huge fan of the Merlin blocks. As you can see here: http://worldcastings.com/docs/catalog/pg31.pdf The Merlin Lite can be bored up to 4.6”. If we go with the tall 11.625” deck, which is a raised cam model, we can go as high as a 5.85 stroke. Plugging those numbers in here: http://www.prestage.com/carmath/calc_cid.asp shows a displacement of 777.77. In my mind, this would probably be the largest engine ever put in a street car. It would also only weigh 150 pounds. If any of you have heard of such a thing already done, please send me info! I think it will be a first.
Next, piggybacking off the great work done by Monty, this time around I’m going to go with twin turbo. Originally that’s what I wanted for Merlin 1, but a combination of events led me down the Whipple path. First, a local shop assured me that twin turbos would never fit in a C3. Hah!! Boy did they screw up. I was ready to throw the whole project their way too! After that fiasco, I did more research & determined that the twin screw Whipple design was more efficient down at the lower rpms. While this is very definitely true & Merlin 1 will have some torque figures at the low rpm’s like you’ve never seen in a street car, this is a bad thing!! Traction wins races – all other things help equal. If you can’t hook the tires, you can’t put up the killer numbers. If you look at Monty’s dyno, his car is making as much power as my big block & he’s developing the power way up higher. He’ll be able to get more traction off the line & then bring it on home once hooked up. Hands down, it’s a better setup for a street car.
Presently I’m looking at 2 of the Garret T76’s. Plugging in the engine numbers listed above at: http://www.turbofast.com.au/tfcalc.html combined with rpm of 7,600 ambient Seattle air temp of 50 degrees, Engine VE of 80 boost pressure of 25psi & the listed compressor efficiency of 78 & listed intercooler efficiency of 75, I come up with around 2,500HP being possible out of this engine. Combine this with a Pro Shot Fogger 2 system & I think numbers approaching 3,000HP are theoretically possible out of this thing. I welcome input from some of the forum experts. Are there any flaws in my theory? Can you make any recommendations other than the T76? I’m also in love with the Hogan manifold Monty used. They have a dual TPI version with NO2 integrated http://www.hogansracingmanifolds.com/main.htm This would work perfectly. Even with the 11.625 deck height, there is the very real possibility that this thing could fit under a high rise twin turbo hood. Talk about THE ultimate sleeper!! I still feel even with those totally absurd HP numbers above, if this thing was detuned & run with only 6 psi on the street, it could be streetable. HP could probably be brought down around 1,500 or so which is right around where both Monty & I will be capable with our present systems.
Although I went with the ROD 6 speed in the first version, I will have no choice but to go 4L80E on the second one. Tom’s rear end will be required as well. I’ve discussed with Art Morrison about building a frame designed after the C-5, but having a C-3 body. This way we can take advantage of the better geometry, use rack & pinion, coil overs etc. This frame setup will be stronger & also drop a few extra hundred pounds off the car. All tube chrome moly. Combine that with the lighter engine & we’ll have a car weighing potentially under 3,000 pounds with nearly 3,000HP. To put that in perspective, this would be like one of the new *** bikes cranking out over 450HP. Can you imagine!!
I was considering a C2 body, but I think I’m going to keep it C3. Since this will certainly need to be a full cage design, I was thinking about another 74 but with the 80-82 style body & glass T-tops. I’ve always like the glass tops & I could pretty much hide the full cage. You would be able to see it from the inside, but not from outside. I can’t even imagine what a 777 would sound like. Talk about shaking the earth!!
OK, so that’s my further decent into madness. I welcome all comments – even if just to say “son, you need professional medical help”. I’m especially eager to hear from Monty & others who have done similar projects about the feasibility of such a thing. If we can pull it off, this will be a car that will be talked about for many years to come.
07-08-2002, 06:18 PM
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St. Jude Donor '08, '15
Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Merlin522)
:lol: Don't you have to recooperate from the $200k+ investment on merlin one? :jester
07-08-2002, 06:20 PM
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Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (theanswriz42)
Steve - Yes, I should have mentioned that selling Merlin 1 will be critical to building Merlin 2. I'm not going to do this, though, until I've brought it to the next cruise-in & gotten to meet everyone. Merlin 2 wouldn't be started until late next year. I'm just trying to gather information right now so I don't make some of the mistakes I made on the first version. As technology continues to improve, even nuttier projects are possible.
07-08-2002, 06:23 PM
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St. Jude Donor '08, '15
Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Merlin522)
I'll be at CI IV with my C3, I'll look forward to seeing you there. I'd fly up to washington to see the car myself but financially it's not feasible for me seeing I have college comming up etc. I can't wait to hear the results from testing Merlin 1. Good luck!
:cheers:
:cheers:
07-08-2002, 06:30 PM
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Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Merlin522)
I'll donate my 78 but I get it back when the project is finished. :D :jester
3000hp how long would an engine like that servive?
[Modified by Wightnite, 5:33 PM 7/8/2002]
3000hp how long would an engine like that servive?
[Modified by Wightnite, 5:33 PM 7/8/2002]
07-08-2002, 06:36 PM
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Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Wightnite)
Wightnite - Hard to say. The engine is so frigging big that pushing it to 25 psi isn't too severe. A lot of this is guesswork so it's just really hard to say. These engines are made for severe duty & are immensely strong. As I noted, I would only do a few dyno runs at those numbers. Down at 6 psi for the street, my answer to your question would "indefinitely".
07-08-2002, 06:36 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Merlin522)
Steve,
You're friggin' nuts. Crazy. Certifiable. But I mean that in the best possible way ;). If you've got the motivation and money, anything's possible.
However, I am curious to see how you feel about it after finally driving your present creation. I love building hot rod engines and cars just as much as anyone, and when people tell me something "can't be done", that makes me want to do it even more. But I've got to tell you, I'm willing to bet that when you finally drive your car, it's going to scare the crap out of you.
Maybe you have some experience that I'm not aware of, but most people have no idea how violent it is to drive a 600hp car, not to mention a 1000hp+ car. As is, there will be very few cars(if any) that will ever hope to hang with yours, assuming you can keep it together. I just hope you're safe with it. Consider that the Sledgehammer Calloway TT Corvette's went almost 255mph with a 350ci engine, and a relatively stock chassis. It's difficult to imagine what your car is going to be capable of.
If you're serious about constructing the ultimate TT street monster, I'd love to help, even if it's just a matter of giving any advice/knowledge I've picked up. Just think it through is all I'm saying. You've been involved with your present project almost 3 years now, and you're still not done, and you're already thinking of creating something two times as powerful, and exponentially more radical. I say go for it, but just remember the tough times you've had, and multiply that by an unknown factor.
I know one thing for sure, you're paying for your fabricator and bodyshop's kids' college tuition....
The only thing I see that I would change so far is the stroke, and subsequently the ci's. There's no need to run that much stroke, too much piston speed. Unfortunately, metallurgy hasn't quite caught up with our imaginations yet. Also, turbo setups tend to work better with short stroke, big bore combinations. You already mentioned you feel you ahve too much low end torque, with the stroke and turbo's you've described, you're compounding the problem significantly. Also keep in mind that RPM (and detonation) kills parts, not boost. You can make more manageable power that way, in my opinion. Heck, I'm only making 770ft lbs at 4000 rpm, and I intend to cut that down some for street use.
And I don't think there's any way you can get any IRS to handle that much power. You'd probably need to forget about a 4L80E as well, just go with an Allison...
You're friggin nuts...did I mention that? ;)
You're friggin' nuts. Crazy. Certifiable. But I mean that in the best possible way ;). If you've got the motivation and money, anything's possible.
However, I am curious to see how you feel about it after finally driving your present creation. I love building hot rod engines and cars just as much as anyone, and when people tell me something "can't be done", that makes me want to do it even more. But I've got to tell you, I'm willing to bet that when you finally drive your car, it's going to scare the crap out of you.
Maybe you have some experience that I'm not aware of, but most people have no idea how violent it is to drive a 600hp car, not to mention a 1000hp+ car. As is, there will be very few cars(if any) that will ever hope to hang with yours, assuming you can keep it together. I just hope you're safe with it. Consider that the Sledgehammer Calloway TT Corvette's went almost 255mph with a 350ci engine, and a relatively stock chassis. It's difficult to imagine what your car is going to be capable of.
If you're serious about constructing the ultimate TT street monster, I'd love to help, even if it's just a matter of giving any advice/knowledge I've picked up. Just think it through is all I'm saying. You've been involved with your present project almost 3 years now, and you're still not done, and you're already thinking of creating something two times as powerful, and exponentially more radical. I say go for it, but just remember the tough times you've had, and multiply that by an unknown factor.
I know one thing for sure, you're paying for your fabricator and bodyshop's kids' college tuition....
The only thing I see that I would change so far is the stroke, and subsequently the ci's. There's no need to run that much stroke, too much piston speed. Unfortunately, metallurgy hasn't quite caught up with our imaginations yet. Also, turbo setups tend to work better with short stroke, big bore combinations. You already mentioned you feel you ahve too much low end torque, with the stroke and turbo's you've described, you're compounding the problem significantly. Also keep in mind that RPM (and detonation) kills parts, not boost. You can make more manageable power that way, in my opinion. Heck, I'm only making 770ft lbs at 4000 rpm, and I intend to cut that down some for street use.
And I don't think there's any way you can get any IRS to handle that much power. You'd probably need to forget about a 4L80E as well, just go with an Allison...
You're friggin nuts...did I mention that? ;)
07-08-2002, 06:37 PM
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Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (theanswriz42)
It sounds like your doing all the homework required for Merlin II. Like many I was in awe of the numbers Monty developed in his motor and like you I think it would be a more streetable engine with the turbos.
All I can say is "holy poopie" if the numbers your projecting for Merlin II are attainable. If you can take all that you've learned from Merlin 1 and use it to avoid the pitfalls that you encountered it should actually be a more predictable project.
Good Luck and I hope to see Merlin 1 in action.
Scott
All I can say is "holy poopie" if the numbers your projecting for Merlin II are attainable. If you can take all that you've learned from Merlin 1 and use it to avoid the pitfalls that you encountered it should actually be a more predictable project.
Good Luck and I hope to see Merlin 1 in action.
Scott
07-08-2002, 06:52 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Merlin522)
EXCELLENT! Nothing I like better than a NEW project. :yesnod: (just wish I could finish all of my old ones :( )
Remember, as you said, you need to decide what the job is and what is "the best tool for the job".
I would closely study the finest street cars, race cars and their builders so that I could emulate the qualities that make them great.
While deciding who will perform work on the various systems, ask them "What can you do for ME and my project" vs. "can you build this?"
I wish you luck in assembling a design and fabrication Dream Team.
I still think that all wheel drive is the best way to manage your level of HP insanity. Even if none of the available systems will work for your application, . . . have one designed and built!
The naysayers are going to LOVE TO HATE YOU! :lol: :cheers:
Remember, as you said, you need to decide what the job is and what is "the best tool for the job".
I would closely study the finest street cars, race cars and their builders so that I could emulate the qualities that make them great.
While deciding who will perform work on the various systems, ask them "What can you do for ME and my project" vs. "can you build this?"
I wish you luck in assembling a design and fabrication Dream Team.
I still think that all wheel drive is the best way to manage your level of HP insanity. Even if none of the available systems will work for your application, . . . have one designed and built!
The naysayers are going to LOVE TO HATE YOU! :lol: :cheers:
07-08-2002, 06:58 PM
#11
Safety Car
Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Scott78)
I agree with Monty on the Cubic Inch issue. If you look at the fastest street car racers engines, huge cubic inch motor are still popular on N/A and nitrous cars but the turbo guys are using small bocks and destroked big blocks. A large bore short stroke would probably be better. I have a friend of mine who has a twin turbo 540 and on pump gas and 9 lbs of boost the car makes 1000 rwhp and idles at 850 rpms. Also, if you have the goal of any traction, by killing low end torque, 777 inches is not the way to do it.
I also agree with Monty on the fact Merlin 1 will be faster than you will ever be able to use on the street. I am not trying to put a damper on your idea, just stating you have already built something that is far to powerful to ever reach its potential on the street.
I like Merlin 1, get that thing running so we can see what it is truley capable of :chevy
I also agree with Monty on the fact Merlin 1 will be faster than you will ever be able to use on the street. I am not trying to put a damper on your idea, just stating you have already built something that is far to powerful to ever reach its potential on the street.
I like Merlin 1, get that thing running so we can see what it is truley capable of :chevy
07-08-2002, 07:12 PM
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Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Merlin522)
Steve...Why not carry on your 777 theme and put it in a 77 Vette? Then you could just call it the Recurring Vette. :rolleyes:
07-08-2002, 07:22 PM
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Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Merlin522)
Awesome! I am a big turbo fan. :)
I think a better Ultimate C3 would be one that someone could drive every day ANYWHERE. One that gets good gas mileage, has great handling on dry/wet roads, imperfect paint that you wouldn't worry about, a removable roof that is easy to take on/off, is comfortable in every aspect, and is just an all around joy to drive. Of course it should have everything that a modern car has like 6-speed or overdrive automatic, but also some of the far reaching stuff that MIKER was hinting at like AWD, a revised frame that would be more amenable to bigger tires, brakes, coilovers, etc. My ultimate C3 would be one that I would hop into without a second glance, one that I would not have to look outside before getting into, one that I wouldn't have to worry about gas mileage on the trip, wear/tear on the car, etc. My only concern will be "do I need to take more than 2 people?" :) And of course it would still have to look like a C3. IMO, top horsepower only matters 0.001% of the time.
But of course I am in awe at M1 and have been following its progress from the first post at corvetteforum. And no doubt I will be following M2 with equal excitement. :cheers:
-terry
I think a better Ultimate C3 would be one that someone could drive every day ANYWHERE. One that gets good gas mileage, has great handling on dry/wet roads, imperfect paint that you wouldn't worry about, a removable roof that is easy to take on/off, is comfortable in every aspect, and is just an all around joy to drive. Of course it should have everything that a modern car has like 6-speed or overdrive automatic, but also some of the far reaching stuff that MIKER was hinting at like AWD, a revised frame that would be more amenable to bigger tires, brakes, coilovers, etc. My ultimate C3 would be one that I would hop into without a second glance, one that I would not have to look outside before getting into, one that I wouldn't have to worry about gas mileage on the trip, wear/tear on the car, etc. My only concern will be "do I need to take more than 2 people?" :) And of course it would still have to look like a C3. IMO, top horsepower only matters 0.001% of the time.
But of course I am in awe at M1 and have been following its progress from the first post at corvetteforum. And no doubt I will be following M2 with equal excitement. :cheers:
-terry
07-08-2002, 07:40 PM
#14
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Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Merlin522)
I love this!
I would like to drive up to Seattle and see #1 first. I have followed your insanity from a distance because of school, but the worst is over and I intend to spend more time on the forum and I have seen how far you have come with this project - its so close now that we can taste it :cool:
When is the next Corvette swap meet in Puyallup?
Perhaps I can e-mail you to arrange a visit when its possible for you, if you don't mind.
Thanks and STW!
Linwood
I would like to drive up to Seattle and see #1 first. I have followed your insanity from a distance because of school, but the worst is over and I intend to spend more time on the forum and I have seen how far you have come with this project - its so close now that we can taste it :cool:
When is the next Corvette swap meet in Puyallup?
Perhaps I can e-mail you to arrange a visit when its possible for you, if you don't mind.
Thanks and STW!
Linwood
07-08-2002, 08:29 PM
#15
Race Director
Re: Merlin777 ? A Sneak Preview (73454)
Merlin you are :crazy:
I'm thinking about a new cam and intake for a 50 HP increase :eek:
I'm thinking about a new cam and intake for a 50 HP increase :eek:
07-08-2002, 09:35 PM
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Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (73454)
Complete insanity, would you like to adopt a 40 year old :jester
Linwood- nice to see you among the living again!
Scott
Linwood- nice to see you among the living again!
Scott
07-08-2002, 09:58 PM
#17
Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (C3 Shark Tank)
Hi, My name is Steve. I am a recovering HP addict. I am going on 60 days. I know this HP thing is something I can eventually beat. I am not going to let this take control of my life. I knew I had hit "my Bottom" when I got to the point of having to disguise my voice when I talked to turbo companies. I now have a Honda Accord as my daily driver and the only hot rod I own are made by matchbox. I will continue to struggle with this addiction day by day... :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: I am sure the Merlin777 will be "the bomb"...Ohh wait I forgot the obligatory response to your car ideas..."it will never work" :D :D :D :D
07-08-2002, 10:35 PM
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Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (TONYS68L36)
Monty – I knew you couldn’t resist this post!! Look, let’s face it – neither of our cars will ever be able to live up to their potential. Our projects are as much about what is possible as they are about what is realistic – probably much more so about the prior than the latter. I’ve driven some pretty nutty machines in my day. The Viper is pretty quick, bit just quite enough. My busa was the fastest vehicle I’ve ever been on. It was pretty close to enough. I could imagine a little more power than it, but not much. At 200HP, it’s power to weight ratio is right around what we are now building. The Viper is cranking right around 500HP & at least that in torque, so imagining a 600HP car isn’t too far a leap for me. It can be pretty violent if you get to radical off the line but honestly – at highway speeds it’s about as civil as a vehicle can be. Cruising down the hwy at 80 is effortless & far from what I would call violent. You have to watch yourself, but if you drive responsibly it’s fun power & I always find myself wondering what 1,000HP will feel like.
The 777 I am considering is really designed to just be an all out goof car. Totally ridiculous, totally preposterous yet possible. I guess that’s the part I’m looking to you guys for help with. Is it possible? I went with the 522 for the same stroke reasons you are quoting. Chris also prefers to use bore over stroke for these types of engines. I’ve come away from the project thinking that the 522 is small. There’s a number of 540’s & even 632’s out there. Nobody has a 777. I realize it’s not optimal & would probably not live for long at max output, but then what engine does? The real question I’m looking to answer is – do you think it’s possible? Do you think the T76’s are up to the task? I’d love to have you involved as a consultant on this. Half the ideas for this new car came from watching the cool stuff you have done. It’s going to be a combo of what we have both put together. I’m also really impressed with your shop out there & might entertain having them build the turbo setup after Chris builds the engine. We’ll have to talk. On this one I’m going for all out numbers.
Scott78 – Agreed. Although there are still lots of questions with mine, I really think that turbo is the way to go for the street. It’s definitely more stealth for sure. My car is about as stealth as Shaq trying to get into the playground at the local McDonald’s! I really just want to see what can be done. What is possible.
70 LS1 – Thanks Jeff! Looking forward to meeting you next week!
MIKER – I guess some of us just always need to be busy or we get bored & get in trouble. This stuff is fun!! Sure beats collecting stamps for a hobby - nothing against those of you who collect stamps :) Since there is nothing I could ever do to build something with the quality & artistic ability of a Mclaren or a Modena, the best I can do is just build something completely out there. Some people say that pets & their owners resemble each other. I guess cars can resemble a person as well. I pretty much live my life on the edge, so why not build cars as such? I would just love to hear what an engine that big sounds like. It wouldn’t even have to be that loud to be impressive. Just the massive parts alone would be impressive to see & hear. Another thing learned on this project, as you alluded to, is how to approach the project itself. Merlin 2 will be spec’d out & I will be getting a project estimate before spending a dime. No more of this revolving cost stuff. I’m willing to bet the next version will end up being cheaper than the first one because it’s going to be better thought out & better managed. Believe me, I haven’t forgotten about your all wheel drive idea. An all wheel drive version of this car would break the entire street car mold. Traction is the biggest problem in all these types of cars. Having all 4 wheels going would take at least a full second off the quarter mile times if not more. This is a prime example of how things have changed since I started this project. The Murcielago now has all wheel drive. If they have found a way to keep that alive at 572HP, then I don’t see why we couldn’t beef one up & use it. I’m really researching that hard. Even though it could never take the full brunt of the power of what I’m talking about, even at partial throttle it would make for a far superior car. This article is a good read: http://in.indiacar.lycosasia.com/inf...ghini_mur2.htm
69 N.O.X. – No doubt about it. It won’t be optimal, but then nothing with an IRS is either. The question for me is can it be done. The type of racing I do is different than most. I really enjoy power blasting up long hills & such. Places where torque & power really make the difference. We have a huge long hill by my house & it’s always fun to run people up there. I always have cars following me around coming off the interstate. Very few of them can ever keep up going up the hill because it’s all about power & not as much about traction because I already have motion. I wish there were more places that had long stretches of road where you can blast along. Why do we not have an autobahn here? This is supposed to be the land of the free yet there isn’t a single autobahn type road here. Don’t get me started on that one. These cars are totally ridiculous & totally impractical, but we still build them nonetheless. Why? Because it’s fun.
Brutus – Or I could just put a 666 in a 66 & call it the Devil Vette!! :lol:
terryrudy – I always was & now I’m convinced more than ever. The only problem with the turbos is the heat. That is one area where the Whipples are superior on the street. They stay cool & have a longetivity of 100,000 hours in most boat applications that have run them. Heat is the enemy. Fortunately up here it simply never gets hot. Even during the summer it rarely gets above 70. If you asked 100 people what the ultimate C3 is, you would likely get 100 different answers. No car can do everything. Now if you ask 100 people if they have a street driven car that is capable of nearly 3,000HP the answer will be zero. That’s sort of what I’m getting at. It hasn’t been done & that excites me.
73454 – You’re not that far, so if you ever get a break from school, come on up! We are very very close to being done. I’m not sure when the next swap meet is – I’ll ask Bill, he’ll know for sure.
MotorHead – You know how Forest Gump says “stupid is as stupid does”? I need to come up with something like that for crazy people. It’s all relative. A 50HP increase is nothing to sneeze at!! You can really feel the difference. I guess with my car it’s kind of like climbing Mt. Everest. Once could certainly be just as happy climbing Mt. Rainier for instance, why do we need to then climb Everest? I say, why not!
C3 Shark Tank - :cheers: :)
TONYS68L36 – I’m still rolling over here. Very good!!!! :lol:
The 777 I am considering is really designed to just be an all out goof car. Totally ridiculous, totally preposterous yet possible. I guess that’s the part I’m looking to you guys for help with. Is it possible? I went with the 522 for the same stroke reasons you are quoting. Chris also prefers to use bore over stroke for these types of engines. I’ve come away from the project thinking that the 522 is small. There’s a number of 540’s & even 632’s out there. Nobody has a 777. I realize it’s not optimal & would probably not live for long at max output, but then what engine does? The real question I’m looking to answer is – do you think it’s possible? Do you think the T76’s are up to the task? I’d love to have you involved as a consultant on this. Half the ideas for this new car came from watching the cool stuff you have done. It’s going to be a combo of what we have both put together. I’m also really impressed with your shop out there & might entertain having them build the turbo setup after Chris builds the engine. We’ll have to talk. On this one I’m going for all out numbers.
Scott78 – Agreed. Although there are still lots of questions with mine, I really think that turbo is the way to go for the street. It’s definitely more stealth for sure. My car is about as stealth as Shaq trying to get into the playground at the local McDonald’s! I really just want to see what can be done. What is possible.
70 LS1 – Thanks Jeff! Looking forward to meeting you next week!
MIKER – I guess some of us just always need to be busy or we get bored & get in trouble. This stuff is fun!! Sure beats collecting stamps for a hobby - nothing against those of you who collect stamps :) Since there is nothing I could ever do to build something with the quality & artistic ability of a Mclaren or a Modena, the best I can do is just build something completely out there. Some people say that pets & their owners resemble each other. I guess cars can resemble a person as well. I pretty much live my life on the edge, so why not build cars as such? I would just love to hear what an engine that big sounds like. It wouldn’t even have to be that loud to be impressive. Just the massive parts alone would be impressive to see & hear. Another thing learned on this project, as you alluded to, is how to approach the project itself. Merlin 2 will be spec’d out & I will be getting a project estimate before spending a dime. No more of this revolving cost stuff. I’m willing to bet the next version will end up being cheaper than the first one because it’s going to be better thought out & better managed. Believe me, I haven’t forgotten about your all wheel drive idea. An all wheel drive version of this car would break the entire street car mold. Traction is the biggest problem in all these types of cars. Having all 4 wheels going would take at least a full second off the quarter mile times if not more. This is a prime example of how things have changed since I started this project. The Murcielago now has all wheel drive. If they have found a way to keep that alive at 572HP, then I don’t see why we couldn’t beef one up & use it. I’m really researching that hard. Even though it could never take the full brunt of the power of what I’m talking about, even at partial throttle it would make for a far superior car. This article is a good read: http://in.indiacar.lycosasia.com/inf...ghini_mur2.htm
69 N.O.X. – No doubt about it. It won’t be optimal, but then nothing with an IRS is either. The question for me is can it be done. The type of racing I do is different than most. I really enjoy power blasting up long hills & such. Places where torque & power really make the difference. We have a huge long hill by my house & it’s always fun to run people up there. I always have cars following me around coming off the interstate. Very few of them can ever keep up going up the hill because it’s all about power & not as much about traction because I already have motion. I wish there were more places that had long stretches of road where you can blast along. Why do we not have an autobahn here? This is supposed to be the land of the free yet there isn’t a single autobahn type road here. Don’t get me started on that one. These cars are totally ridiculous & totally impractical, but we still build them nonetheless. Why? Because it’s fun.
Brutus – Or I could just put a 666 in a 66 & call it the Devil Vette!! :lol:
terryrudy – I always was & now I’m convinced more than ever. The only problem with the turbos is the heat. That is one area where the Whipples are superior on the street. They stay cool & have a longetivity of 100,000 hours in most boat applications that have run them. Heat is the enemy. Fortunately up here it simply never gets hot. Even during the summer it rarely gets above 70. If you asked 100 people what the ultimate C3 is, you would likely get 100 different answers. No car can do everything. Now if you ask 100 people if they have a street driven car that is capable of nearly 3,000HP the answer will be zero. That’s sort of what I’m getting at. It hasn’t been done & that excites me.
73454 – You’re not that far, so if you ever get a break from school, come on up! We are very very close to being done. I’m not sure when the next swap meet is – I’ll ask Bill, he’ll know for sure.
MotorHead – You know how Forest Gump says “stupid is as stupid does”? I need to come up with something like that for crazy people. It’s all relative. A 50HP increase is nothing to sneeze at!! You can really feel the difference. I guess with my car it’s kind of like climbing Mt. Everest. Once could certainly be just as happy climbing Mt. Rainier for instance, why do we need to then climb Everest? I say, why not!
C3 Shark Tank - :cheers: :)
TONYS68L36 – I’m still rolling over here. Very good!!!! :lol:
07-08-2002, 10:50 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Palatine
Posts: 792
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Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Merlin522)
Merlin, Like many, I've followed your project from the beginning. My non-corvette friends also click on your web page on a daily basis just to gawk at your monster. I feel your bringing hotrods to a new level (People like you and Monty etc.). Perhaps you should open up your own shop and hirer the best men (just look on the corvette forum) and creat a line of your C3 monster visions (thatd be fun, and im sure fame would follow). :crazy: . Anywho, on to your next project, and I look foward to watching that as well.
Hey do you think I can make payments on merlin 1? :lol:
Hey do you think I can make payments on merlin 1? :lol:
07-08-2002, 11:43 PM
#20
Le Mans Master
Re: Merlin777 – A Sneak Preview (Merlin522)
Steve,
I was worried you'd take my post the wrong way. I didn't intend to say your idea wasn't possible or practical, you just need to know what your goals and intended usage is. But I think I understand what you're after now. I love your idea (as long as I'm not paying for it ;) ).
The problem is where to end. Why stop at T76's, why not go all out with twin T108's. Shoot, each of them is worth 2000+hp, add two together and you'll have enough power to launch the space shuttle. Add enough gear and stall, plus the CI's you're talking about and it would probably work - you'd have to do the math to figure it out. I don't think anyone has ever tried running two of those "big thumpers." If you wan't to get seriously radical, how about a quad-turbo. John Meaney and Mike Moran did a Quad turbo on Moran's "Casper" and it is crazy. I'm sure you've seen pictures, and they used some pretty "small" turbo's. It really depends on the rest of the combination. But in your case, you're saying you going after numbers, that simplifies things. Hec, I'd be willing to help you mae the headers just for the fun of it, I've gotten pretty good at TIG welding stainless steel. Plus I have half the material you'd need on hand already.
Realistically, once you get to these levels it's not about who has the most power that wins the race, it's about clutch and tires. If you want to post the biggest number on the dyno, that's easy to do. But if you want to apply it that's hard. One of the Fast Times guys, Chuck Samuels, is running the 1/4 at 6.46 at over 220+mph with a turbocharged smallblock in a 3000lb car. Turbo's build CRAZY Torque and Power, that's what alot of people don't get for some reason. Unfortunately, the crappy OEM turbo applications have convinced people that turbo's are high-rpm horsepwoer only,but that's 180 degrees from the truth. With the proper amount of money, you can do anything you want. It's not the engine, but the chassis, clutch, and tires that become the limiting factor.
I think in your case we need to modify the old adage "Speed Costs Money, How Fast Do You Want To Go?" to "Insanity Costs Money, How Crazy Do You Want To Get?"
Good Luck!
I was worried you'd take my post the wrong way. I didn't intend to say your idea wasn't possible or practical, you just need to know what your goals and intended usage is. But I think I understand what you're after now. I love your idea (as long as I'm not paying for it ;) ).
The problem is where to end. Why stop at T76's, why not go all out with twin T108's. Shoot, each of them is worth 2000+hp, add two together and you'll have enough power to launch the space shuttle. Add enough gear and stall, plus the CI's you're talking about and it would probably work - you'd have to do the math to figure it out. I don't think anyone has ever tried running two of those "big thumpers." If you wan't to get seriously radical, how about a quad-turbo. John Meaney and Mike Moran did a Quad turbo on Moran's "Casper" and it is crazy. I'm sure you've seen pictures, and they used some pretty "small" turbo's. It really depends on the rest of the combination. But in your case, you're saying you going after numbers, that simplifies things. Hec, I'd be willing to help you mae the headers just for the fun of it, I've gotten pretty good at TIG welding stainless steel. Plus I have half the material you'd need on hand already.
Realistically, once you get to these levels it's not about who has the most power that wins the race, it's about clutch and tires. If you want to post the biggest number on the dyno, that's easy to do. But if you want to apply it that's hard. One of the Fast Times guys, Chuck Samuels, is running the 1/4 at 6.46 at over 220+mph with a turbocharged smallblock in a 3000lb car. Turbo's build CRAZY Torque and Power, that's what alot of people don't get for some reason. Unfortunately, the crappy OEM turbo applications have convinced people that turbo's are high-rpm horsepwoer only,but that's 180 degrees from the truth. With the proper amount of money, you can do anything you want. It's not the engine, but the chassis, clutch, and tires that become the limiting factor.
I think in your case we need to modify the old adage "Speed Costs Money, How Fast Do You Want To Go?" to "Insanity Costs Money, How Crazy Do You Want To Get?"
Good Luck!