MSD Atomic EFI Install - '76
09-01-2014, 04:48 PM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
MSD Atomic EFI Install - '76
Hi All:
I just finished my MSD Atomic EFI install on my '76 model. Pictures are here in this album... https://picasaweb.google.com/carlspa...eat=directlink
The MSD Atomic EFI install pictures start on photo No. 307 which is linked here... https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
The album actually starts with pictures from when I first bought the car in 2000 and there are several segments of improvements... Recent work starts on pic No. 94 which is here... https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
The MSD install was basically finished a few hours ago so I don't have any real experience driving the car yet. Really looking forward to the new era of driving the old smogger.
I mention that the car is a smogger... I am in California and the smog rules here are pretty strict. Apparently any deviation from stock in the engine area must be cleared by the CARB at the manufacture level. Which in the past has meant that anybody that owned a smog era car - could not easily modify the engine. And that was a drag - no headers, no after market heads, no carb changes. And then came MSD.
MSD sought and was given approval that the MSD Atomic EFI system could be installed on pre-1987 GM vehicles originally equipped with a carburator - BINGO!!!
My install still has it's EGR system and it's A.I.R. system intact - the only trouble I expect at smog check is that I ditched the stock air cleaner with its stove and hot air system. My counter argument is that the EFI controller is already limiting excess hydrocarbons even during the few minutes after start up when the stove and hot air system would be trying to quickly heat the engine anyway.
Most gearheads know that a FI car is better suited to all around driving than a carb car. Granted - the Rochester that came off the '76 ran great due to careful tuning - but having a fully modern FI system is just better. And on day-one - Love it so far.
Feel free to ask any questions about the install either on the forum of by email at carlspacbellemail@gmail.com
Best to all...
Carl
I just finished my MSD Atomic EFI install on my '76 model. Pictures are here in this album... https://picasaweb.google.com/carlspa...eat=directlink
The MSD Atomic EFI install pictures start on photo No. 307 which is linked here... https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
The album actually starts with pictures from when I first bought the car in 2000 and there are several segments of improvements... Recent work starts on pic No. 94 which is here... https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
The MSD install was basically finished a few hours ago so I don't have any real experience driving the car yet. Really looking forward to the new era of driving the old smogger.
I mention that the car is a smogger... I am in California and the smog rules here are pretty strict. Apparently any deviation from stock in the engine area must be cleared by the CARB at the manufacture level. Which in the past has meant that anybody that owned a smog era car - could not easily modify the engine. And that was a drag - no headers, no after market heads, no carb changes. And then came MSD.
MSD sought and was given approval that the MSD Atomic EFI system could be installed on pre-1987 GM vehicles originally equipped with a carburator - BINGO!!!
My install still has it's EGR system and it's A.I.R. system intact - the only trouble I expect at smog check is that I ditched the stock air cleaner with its stove and hot air system. My counter argument is that the EFI controller is already limiting excess hydrocarbons even during the few minutes after start up when the stove and hot air system would be trying to quickly heat the engine anyway.
Most gearheads know that a FI car is better suited to all around driving than a carb car. Granted - the Rochester that came off the '76 ran great due to careful tuning - but having a fully modern FI system is just better. And on day-one - Love it so far.
Feel free to ask any questions about the install either on the forum of by email at carlspacbellemail@gmail.com
Best to all...
Carl
Last edited by Carl in LA; 12-06-2014 at 11:29 AM. Reason: add picture
09-01-2014, 05:30 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
Did you use a rtn fuel line or go with the returnless pwm setup? Looking fwd to reading your reviews as I know ppl have gone with the FAST system but not read of anyone on here using the MSD system. 
Last edited by gdh; 09-01-2014 at 06:04 PM.
09-01-2014, 08:15 PM
#4
Race Director
09-02-2014, 12:23 AM
#6
Pro
Thread Starter
As noted... I did choose to go with the return system and further - go with the pump in the tank. MSD has a little score card to establish whether you can get away with no return line or pump in tank... Living in LA - means hot weather during some parts of the year - and as such - my score did not pass the test for no-return line set-up.
Carl
Carl
09-02-2014, 12:41 AM
#7
Pro
Thread Starter
It will be a year away in September 2015 for my next scheduled check.
Two other important elements had to be changed to make the MSD Atomic control ignition timing... had to use a MSD 6A ignition box - which has a CARB approval, and a MSD ready-to-run distributor - I choose the version without the vacuum advance. The MSD 6A requires a seperate coil - so that is different than the stock coil which is the HEI version built into the distributor cap... The MSD instructions state that you are supposed to place the CARB approval decals they provide in a conspicuous place under the hood for the technician to see during the visual inspection.
So the smog tech will have plenty to look at.
My back-up plan... just re-register as California Historic Vehicle. As I read the guidelines - a 1976 model as a historic vehicle is still subject to the tail pipe test at smog check but the rules waive the visual inspection. I already have the classic car insurance which is required to register as a historic vehicle. Hope it does not come to that.
Carl
Two other important elements had to be changed to make the MSD Atomic control ignition timing... had to use a MSD 6A ignition box - which has a CARB approval, and a MSD ready-to-run distributor - I choose the version without the vacuum advance. The MSD 6A requires a seperate coil - so that is different than the stock coil which is the HEI version built into the distributor cap... The MSD instructions state that you are supposed to place the CARB approval decals they provide in a conspicuous place under the hood for the technician to see during the visual inspection.
So the smog tech will have plenty to look at.
My back-up plan... just re-register as California Historic Vehicle. As I read the guidelines - a 1976 model as a historic vehicle is still subject to the tail pipe test at smog check but the rules waive the visual inspection. I already have the classic car insurance which is required to register as a historic vehicle. Hope it does not come to that.
Carl
Last edited by Carl in LA; 01-04-2015 at 01:52 PM.
09-02-2014, 01:46 AM
#8
Race Director
My back-up plan... just re-register as California Historic Vehicle. As I read the guidelines - a 1976 model as a historic vehicle is still subject to the tail pipe test at smog check but the rules waive the inspection. I already have the classic car insurance which is required to register as a historic vehicle. Hope it does not come to that.
Carl
1. Historic vehicles come with rules that limit how you drive them; moreso than classic car insurance.
2. It took forever to find someone who even knew how the exemption worked; I talked to multiple people at the DMV and BAR before I found someone who said that such a program even existed. Most wouldn't even bother looking up the vehicle code for it.
3. The car has to be in original configuration to qualify as a historic vehicle. Your car likely does not cover this.
What does that mean? To me, #2 means finding a smog shop who will do a tail-pipe only test is going to be a pain as they likely won't know about the law. Not sure what hoops you have to jump through to get the plate, but if #3 is scrutinized I think you'll likely be out of luck.
Not trying to be negative, just passing what I learned along. I gave up on that route...
09-02-2014, 02:02 AM
#9
Le Mans Master
It has always baffled me why any authority should care what mods might have been made, as long as the exhaust satisfies the intention of the requirements. This is definitely an issue SEMA SAN ought to get on top of as part of their continuing efforts on our hobby's behalf.
Good luck with the EFI setup, tho you shouldn't need it. I personally don't plan on ever putting another carb on my shark.
12-06-2014, 11:20 AM
#10
Pro
Thread Starter
Hello Everybody:
An update and an observation about the note below...
I have about 600-miles on the MSD Atomic system which the vast majority of those miles have been satisfying.
MSD has released one software upgrade during that time which I did download and I am using.
As expected - the car cold starts just like a modern car, pulls hard while warming up, no hiccups or gags or anything. A great driving experience.
It does require patience to tune the device to your particular engine and driving situations.
Regarding the smog. The local smog check tested the tail pipe and it passed. But he said he would not pass the car because I had an open side air cleaner from MSD as opposed to the stock full house snorkle heat tube version - and recommended that I go to the Smog Referee station to "get a sticker".
So I went to the local smog referee... the fellow took a look a the documentation and the engine compartment and said he would have passed it as is - with the open air cleaner...??? Then he suggested that I get exempt with the collector car (Historic - but he called it collector) status - as noted below. I mentioned that point about not passing the inspection at the DMV and he reminded me that the installation is "legal" and hence the DMV should not have a basis to withhold Collector Car status... Go figure.
So - My vote now is to pursue collector car status and get the waiver from visual and just succumb to the tailpipe test every two years.
Who wants to bet that I get a third interpretation of the rules when I get to the DMV?
Not much help when you get conflicting findings from officials is it.
Best to all...
Carl
An update and an observation about the note below...
I have about 600-miles on the MSD Atomic system which the vast majority of those miles have been satisfying.
MSD has released one software upgrade during that time which I did download and I am using.
As expected - the car cold starts just like a modern car, pulls hard while warming up, no hiccups or gags or anything. A great driving experience.
It does require patience to tune the device to your particular engine and driving situations.
Regarding the smog. The local smog check tested the tail pipe and it passed. But he said he would not pass the car because I had an open side air cleaner from MSD as opposed to the stock full house snorkle heat tube version - and recommended that I go to the Smog Referee station to "get a sticker".
So I went to the local smog referee... the fellow took a look a the documentation and the engine compartment and said he would have passed it as is - with the open air cleaner...??? Then he suggested that I get exempt with the collector car (Historic - but he called it collector) status - as noted below. I mentioned that point about not passing the inspection at the DMV and he reminded me that the installation is "legal" and hence the DMV should not have a basis to withhold Collector Car status... Go figure.
So - My vote now is to pursue collector car status and get the waiver from visual and just succumb to the tailpipe test every two years.
Who wants to bet that I get a third interpretation of the rules when I get to the DMV?
Not much help when you get conflicting findings from officials is it.
Best to all...
Carl
I planned on doing this as well. A few thoughts:
1. Historic vehicles come with rules that limit how you drive them; moreso than classic car insurance.
2. It took forever to find someone who even knew how the exemption worked; I talked to multiple people at the DMV and BAR before I found someone who said that such a program even existed. Most wouldn't even bother looking up the vehicle code for it.
3. The car has to be in original configuration to qualify as a historic vehicle. Your car likely does not cover this.
What does that mean? To me, #2 means finding a smog shop who will do a tail-pipe only test is going to be a pain as they likely won't know about the law. Not sure what hoops you have to jump through to get the plate, but if #3 is scrutinized I think you'll likely be out of luck.
Not trying to be negative, just passing what I learned along. I gave up on that route...
1. Historic vehicles come with rules that limit how you drive them; moreso than classic car insurance.
2. It took forever to find someone who even knew how the exemption worked; I talked to multiple people at the DMV and BAR before I found someone who said that such a program even existed. Most wouldn't even bother looking up the vehicle code for it.
3. The car has to be in original configuration to qualify as a historic vehicle. Your car likely does not cover this.
What does that mean? To me, #2 means finding a smog shop who will do a tail-pipe only test is going to be a pain as they likely won't know about the law. Not sure what hoops you have to jump through to get the plate, but if #3 is scrutinized I think you'll likely be out of luck.
Not trying to be negative, just passing what I learned along. I gave up on that route...
12-06-2014, 11:34 AM
#11
Safety Car
Hello Everybody:
An update and an observation about the note below...
I have about 600-miles on the MSD Atomic system which the vast majority of those miles have been satisfying.
MSD has released one software upgrade during that time which I did download and I am using.
As expected - the car cold starts just like a modern car, pulls hard while warming up, no hiccups or gags or anything. A great driving experience.
It does require patience to tune the device to your particular engine and driving situations.
Regarding the smog. The local smog check tested the tail pipe and it passed. But he said he would not pass the car because I had an open side air cleaner from MSD as opposed to the stock full house snorkle heat tube version - and recommended that I go to the Smog Referee station to "get a sticker".
So I went to the local smog referee... the fellow took a look a the documentation and the engine compartment and said he would have passed it as is - with the open air cleaner...??? Then he suggested that I get exempt with the collector car (Historic - but he called it collector) status - as noted below. I mentioned that point about not passing the inspection at the DMV and he reminded me that the installation is "legal" and hence the DMV should not have a basis to withhold Collector Car status... Go figure.
So - My vote now is to pursue collector car status and get the waiver from visual and just succumb to the tailpipe test every two years.
Who wants to bet that I get a third interpretation of the rules when I get to the DMV?
Not much help when you get conflicting findings from officials is it.
Best to all...
Carl
An update and an observation about the note below...
I have about 600-miles on the MSD Atomic system which the vast majority of those miles have been satisfying.
MSD has released one software upgrade during that time which I did download and I am using.
As expected - the car cold starts just like a modern car, pulls hard while warming up, no hiccups or gags or anything. A great driving experience.
It does require patience to tune the device to your particular engine and driving situations.
Regarding the smog. The local smog check tested the tail pipe and it passed. But he said he would not pass the car because I had an open side air cleaner from MSD as opposed to the stock full house snorkle heat tube version - and recommended that I go to the Smog Referee station to "get a sticker".
So I went to the local smog referee... the fellow took a look a the documentation and the engine compartment and said he would have passed it as is - with the open air cleaner...??? Then he suggested that I get exempt with the collector car (Historic - but he called it collector) status - as noted below. I mentioned that point about not passing the inspection at the DMV and he reminded me that the installation is "legal" and hence the DMV should not have a basis to withhold Collector Car status... Go figure.
So - My vote now is to pursue collector car status and get the waiver from visual and just succumb to the tailpipe test every two years.
Who wants to bet that I get a third interpretation of the rules when I get to the DMV?
Not much help when you get conflicting findings from officials is it.
Best to all...
Carl
12-06-2014, 01:19 PM
#12
Le Mans Master
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"Regarding the smog. The local smog check tested the tail pipe and it passed. But he said he would not pass the car because I had an open side air cleaner from MSD as opposed to the stock full house snorkle heat tube version - and recommended that I go to the Smog Referee station to "get a sticker"."
So didn't the referee give you a sticker? And doesn't that satisfy the local smog check place?
So didn't the referee give you a sticker? And doesn't that satisfy the local smog check place?
12-06-2014, 04:32 PM
#13
Pro
Thread Starter
Nope... after the discussion of what the heck was going on we did not even bother to put the car on the dyno... My bi-annual test is not due until next September - this was just to get all the clearances in advance so there would not be a hang-up in September 2015.
The smog referee said a sticker was not applicable in my case. The sticker - for example - would be for a totally different engine - like a LT1 stuck in there... I understand his point as my installation is legal - no need for a sticker.
Still - don't like when one tech says one thing and the other says another.
Carl
The smog referee said a sticker was not applicable in my case. The sticker - for example - would be for a totally different engine - like a LT1 stuck in there... I understand his point as my installation is legal - no need for a sticker.
Still - don't like when one tech says one thing and the other says another.
Carl
"Regarding the smog. The local smog check tested the tail pipe and it passed. But he said he would not pass the car because I had an open side air cleaner from MSD as opposed to the stock full house snorkle heat tube version - and recommended that I go to the Smog Referee station to "get a sticker"."
So didn't the referee give you a sticker? And doesn't that satisfy the local smog check place?
So didn't the referee give you a sticker? And doesn't that satisfy the local smog check place?
12-06-2014, 07:58 PM
#14
Le Mans Master
Interesting, the OE Number does not cover an air cleaner replacement or heat stove which is no longer needed. Even to cold start testing proves that.
http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/D-722.pdf
I would call MSD and see what they have to say about that.
http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/D-722.pdf
I would call MSD and see what they have to say about that.
12-06-2014, 10:42 PM
#15
Race Director
Interesting, the OE Number does not cover an air cleaner replacement or heat stove which is no longer needed. Even to cold start testing proves that.
http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/D-722.pdf
I would call MSD and see what they have to say about that.
http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/D-722.pdf
I would call MSD and see what they have to say about that.
Anything with these cars is an uphill battle as far as smog goes. I've had smog guys give me grief over E.O.'d stuff. "Why isn't the sticker on the air filter element itself?" (a cold air kit - the sticker was on the air box NEXT to the element)
Pretty sure as far as E.O.s go, having the sticker isn't required as long as the parts can be identified and correlated to a valid E.O..
Carl - if you get collector car status and keep going to that ref you MIGHT get some luck...
Any chance you have last year's numbers and this years numbers with the atomic EFI for comparison?
12-07-2014, 12:45 PM
#16
Pro
Thread Starter
Sure do...
Old numbers (25mph test):
HC measured = 75 - limit = 113
CO% measured = 0.10 - limit = 0.75
NO measured = 659 - limit = 802
Pass
Now with the MSD "out of the box" (25mph test)
HC measured = 31 - limit 135 (dont know why the limits changed)
CO% measured = 0.05 - limit 0.89
NO measured = 318 - limit 900
Perhaps the tech started the test with my car listed as a '73 vette or whatever the last car that was on the dyno - it was only a test and he did not have my registration to scan to get the limits for the '76 model.
So the measured "out of the box" settings are much improved than the old carburetor. The 15mph test with the MSD out of the box failed the CO as the unit was "searching" for a good mix and bounced back and forth with the lower end of the search in the pass region. The tech clicked the findings just when it was at the upper end of its searching swing (MSD subsequently released a software upgrade which purportedly modified the idle program).
All of that is meaningless - so to speak - the air fuel ratio is totally adjustable in three throttle ranges on the MSD and as such you can adjust it so it fails and you can adjust it so it passes - I measured out of the box settings just to get that baseline for future screwing around with the settings.
It is so satisfying to not have to baby the car on start-up. Twist the key and go - only a few seconds of fast idle until it settles down to 700 while still warming up - nice.
Best to all - Carl
Old numbers (25mph test):
HC measured = 75 - limit = 113
CO% measured = 0.10 - limit = 0.75
NO measured = 659 - limit = 802
Pass
Now with the MSD "out of the box" (25mph test)
HC measured = 31 - limit 135 (dont know why the limits changed)
CO% measured = 0.05 - limit 0.89
NO measured = 318 - limit 900
Perhaps the tech started the test with my car listed as a '73 vette or whatever the last car that was on the dyno - it was only a test and he did not have my registration to scan to get the limits for the '76 model.
So the measured "out of the box" settings are much improved than the old carburetor. The 15mph test with the MSD out of the box failed the CO as the unit was "searching" for a good mix and bounced back and forth with the lower end of the search in the pass region. The tech clicked the findings just when it was at the upper end of its searching swing (MSD subsequently released a software upgrade which purportedly modified the idle program).
All of that is meaningless - so to speak - the air fuel ratio is totally adjustable in three throttle ranges on the MSD and as such you can adjust it so it fails and you can adjust it so it passes - I measured out of the box settings just to get that baseline for future screwing around with the settings.
It is so satisfying to not have to baby the car on start-up. Twist the key and go - only a few seconds of fast idle until it settles down to 700 while still warming up - nice.
Best to all - Carl
12-08-2014, 11:15 AM
#19
Pro
Thread Starter
Right now I am using 14:1 for both idle and cruise which is "out of the box" setting. .. but it is my intention to find a timing and A/F combination that delivers maximum highway gas mileage. ..
My first attempt for high gas mileage tuning was A/F = 15.5:1 and 44-degrees advance but the engine could not handle it and suffered from surging on city streets... so back to the drawing board.
I would consider the effort a success with a 24-mpg car at 65-mph. I have an overdrive 200R4 and 3.08 gears so it may be possible.
My first attempt for high gas mileage tuning was A/F = 15.5:1 and 44-degrees advance but the engine could not handle it and suffered from surging on city streets... so back to the drawing board.
I would consider the effort a success with a 24-mpg car at 65-mph. I have an overdrive 200R4 and 3.08 gears so it may be possible.
12-08-2014, 12:15 PM
#20
Race Director
Right now I am using 14:1 for both idle and cruise which is "out of the box" setting. .. but it is my intention to find a timing and A/F combination that delivers maximum highway gas mileage. ..
My first attempt for high gas mileage tuning was A/F = 15.5:1 and 44-degrees advance but the engine could not handle it and suffered from surging on city streets... so back to the drawing board.
I would consider the effort a success with a 24-mpg car at 65-mph. I have an overdrive 200R4 and 3.08 gears so it may be possible.
My first attempt for high gas mileage tuning was A/F = 15.5:1 and 44-degrees advance but the engine could not handle it and suffered from surging on city streets... so back to the drawing board.
I would consider the effort a success with a 24-mpg car at 65-mph. I have an overdrive 200R4 and 3.08 gears so it may be possible.
14.7 should get your CO numbers down a bit further, and I don't have any reason to believe the car couldn't handle that.
How bad was plumbing the new fuel lines? That, and the price, are the two big things making me hesitate doing the install.