REELAV8R

In the process of changing my valve train geometry I have discovered another potential issue with the parts I'm using.

I have the self aligning roller tip comp Magnum rockers right now.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1418-16

On removal of these rockers I noticed that all of the pivot points are blued from heat. Not an uncommon issue for these rockers I guess.
Comp tech support says from too little oil on the pivot ball and suggested a drip rail to remedy the problem. I also discovered you can get a product by crane called "Kool nuts". About a $55 investment.
I also discovered three of the pivot ***** worn significantly. Those can be replaced and are a sacrificial part. No damage to the rocker itself.
I was running 140# on the seat and 318# open. Limit for these is 350#. However that is now 155# on the seat and 333# open, still under the 350# limit.
The only real reason I run these is to retain my stock height valve covers.

So my question is, should I be looking at full roller rockers that might fit under stock covers and ditch the magnums? I've read that the pro magnums will fit with the shorter crane poly locks most of time. This would be about $320 for rockers and another @140 for new pushrods. I just replaced the pushrods to correct geometry so I'm not too crazy about dumping another $400+ into it.

The other option is to give the Kool Nuts a shot with the magnums and see what happens.
Are there real power gains to be had with full roller vs the pivot ball?
Manufacturers claim there is. But maybe the gains are only from the accurate ratio of the rocker vs the variance seen in the OEM rockers.

Second part. If I replace the rockers should I stick with the self aligning or use guide plates? Pros and cons?

MelWff

i clicked on the link and see no indication they are self aligning, wrong link? I have been using the 1.5 ratio with pushrod guide plates for decades and have had no issue.

REELAV8R

eighth item down the list starting with UPC.
Self aligning-Yes

I'm using 1.6RR. What kind of open pressures are you using? What is you max RPM?
I have a feeling it is a combo of the two that is giving me problems. 6000 is my max RPM.

68post

There is always a little HP increase from the reduced friction when switching to full roller rockers. 1.6's will be alittle higher in heat and friction in those rocker ***** than 1.5's.

I wouldn't invest anymore into those roller tips , use this as a warning that you averted potential disaster. Blue is ALOT of heat !

63mako

PeteZO6

If you believe Marlan Davis of Hot Rod mag, (Sept. 2012, pg. 163) "Merely changing from the stamped rockers to full roller rockers with approximately the same advertised ratio was worth about 11hp and 6 ft-lb, verifying the friction reduction and greater stability of a full rollerized rocker." He goes on to say that going from 1.52:1 full roller to a 1.6:1 full roller rockers was worth another 12 1/2 hp and 10 ft-lb.
I realize Hot Rod, like all the other mags, is supported by advertisers, so they have a strong incentive to sell stuff. OTOH, I think Marlan is a very savvy motor-head, and knows his stuff. The real friction point is the ball pivot, not the rocker to valve interface. Full roller rockers minimize that friction. Take it door what it's worth.

Pete

REELAV8R

I'm hearing what you guys are saying about these magnum roller tip rockers. Not made for this much load and RPM.

So what are a couple brands of a good full roller rocker options that might fit under the stock valve covers?
I would prefer steel over aluminum but not a deal breaker. I suspect a steel one will have a lower profile though since less material is needed for strength.
The Dart heads have a slightly raised rail for the valve covers so could probably fit a bit more under there than stock.
I don't want to have to use a spacer to get them higher. The A/C bracket will not fit if I do that and would have to fab a different one.
Right now I'm using a thick rubberized steel valve cover gasket probably about 3/16" thick.

resdoggie

I run these:

http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...4-16/overview/

I have AFR 195's, stock L-82 covers and Felpro rubber/steel core blue gaskets. No interference anywhere.

PeteZO6

I have Crower stainless roller rockers with BBC ARP studs. I have them under L98 cast mag covers. I did have to grind off the drip "rails" but no ill effects from that.
http://www.myruffhouse.com/Stainless...%20rockers.JPG

Pete

7t9l82

i may be wrong on this but i thought the self aligning rockers were for later heads like the l-98. i don't know why it should matter though.

Solid LT1

The roller tips actually do very little rolling...if you don't believe me see what GM did with the LS series motors, roller pivot......sliding tip on their rocker arms. I like the Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum series of rocker arms. Going from a stem guided set up to guide plates isn't cheap, if your doing high RPM work ( over 6000 ) with frequency yes I would make the changes. There are grooved rocker ***** and going to the LT-1/L-82 valve covers with their drippers could help you with your problems. I would also change my brand of motor oil to something like Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs oil, you definatley have a lubrication problem but, it could also be due to your choice of oil.

Solid LT1

Looking at that photo of your Crower set-up....just a question why keep the valve rotators on the motor, if you run high RPM you are asking for big trouble at some future date....

StraubTech

We use and recommend only the Crane stuff. The measurements of triangle formed when you look at the trunion, cup, and roller as points.

cardo0

Kinda worried when u say the "pivot points" are blued. I think u are talking 'bout the rocker ball? Or maybe the sides of the rocker slot? Well stainless steel shows heat affected areas fairly easy due to its fairly silver color. But i believe the SS retains quite a bit of strength even after melted in a weld joint. So unless u see actual deformation i expect the rockers still have a life in your engine. Dont know 'bout the rocker nuts though if they'r carbon steel - any heat treat would be lost.

As for roller rockers i read a lot of owners running the Scorpion brand and u can buy them self-alining (they advertize good w/o guide plates to save a few $$$). Flatlander racing seems to have the best pricing: http://www.flatlanderracing.com/scorpionrockers.html. But i see them selling used in like new condition on craigslist all the time. I dont know if the'll clear stock GEN I vlv covers but the advertized "Design for center bolt down valve covers, self-aligning eliminates the need for guide plate": http://www.scorpioncheckout.com/category_s/160.htm. U could probably post here for scorpion rocker feedback as im sure there will be plenty of scorpion rocker owners on the forum.

If u dont need the vette for awhile im sure some greet deals on roller rockers will eventually emerge. Try the C4 vette and 4th gen camaro forums parts sections as the LT1 uses the self alinging rockers as stock parts and self alining rockers should be available there.

Hope this helps and let us know what u find as this is some great information for all of us using larger cams.

L88Plus

If the ball OR the rocker is blued from heat, toss the pair.
Harland Sharp or Scorpion should both fit the budget.

REELAV8R

To give you a visual on these rocker pivots here is a picture of one.




Called Comp cams tech line and according to them bluing is not a reason for replacement. Just need to get more lube to the ball.

Here is what exhaust on #5 rocker ball looked like.




And this is what it's supposed to look like.





I'm not sure why only cylinder #5's intake and exhaust and #2's exhaust did this but only those three were worn in that manner.
The pivot ball is a softer component than the pivot point on the rocker so it is sacrificial.

I did find while re-shimming the valve that Dart only measured the exhaust on #1 cylinder as it was the only cylinder at 1.800" and then shimmed all the other cylinders the same regardless of installed height. The installed height from dart ranged from 1.769" to 1.801". The advertised install height was 1.800"

So already I was running higher spring pressures than expected.
They also installed up to .075" of shim into a valve pocket only .055" deep for over 55% of it's circumference. This created a situation in which the spring was under supported and actually had no support on the exhaust side of the springs. Live and learn. Just because it comes fully set up doesn't mean it's right.

Anyhow enough of that rant.
Resdoggie I like the price point on those crane energizers. Will have to look into that a bit more.
One of my concerns with aluminum is it duty life cycle. They wear out after some period of time. In a street driven car the rockers see many thousands of cycles vs a strip only car. Steel should last the life of the car.
My other concerns is needle bearings coming loose and traveling through the engine.
So I would like to get something that has a pretty good track record with street driving without failures that don't take out other big $$ items with it.
Does Crane have that kind of a rep? I don't see where they have a steel version.

Straub tech, what kind of life are you seeing out of the crane rockers? Are you using the energizer series or just gold race series?

How about Crower?

I've looked into the scorpions and like the endurance series that they have. Still aluminum, but have a low profile and short poly lock to fit under stock valve covers.
Anybody running these?
Most of what I've read is positive on this brandand it's USA made.

Comps are probably out. Made overseas and plenty of complaints about the poly locks are weak and require constant re-lashing since the bottom of the lock wears. It is also apparently .550" (?) diameter instead of .600 like most polylocks so swaping in different locks may not be that easy.

Harland sharp seems to be liked by many. USA made and stand behind their product.

cv67

Crane was making aluminum roller rockers for the LT4 back in 96 many of them still going today.
We used to run those roller tips on stock or mild cams anything more than 110 or so on the seat wed gofull roller
Good thing you caught the problem!

7t9l82

Ive used Harland Sharp and Crower with good results and have Scorpion now and they seem fine. As for your spring setup, I have said this before and stand by it Never take a set of heads straight out of the box and bolt them on . always check things over and if you don't know what your looking at find someone who does. people can't imagine the damage a failure in a head can cause, it will wipe out an engine as fast as no oil pressure will. im not pointing to the O.P , just making a general statement.

REELAV8R

Sage advice. I disassembled the heads to port them. I did find one valve guide very tight as well as some aluminum shavings around the valve seat inserts and corrected those items.
I did not know what to look for in a properly assembled head and hence did not catch their mistakes. The reason I ordered them that way. I figured Dart knew how to put a head together and I didn't at the time. I guess now I know what to look for.

Are these all on one engine? How many miles, about, do you have on the scorpions?

REELAV8R

I read this somewhere else as well. Would those be the same as one of their current offerings?

Only thing that may have saved me was that #5 exhaust spring managed to dislodge the valve guide seal and I saw the oil smoke out the left exhaust.
So I started investigating the reason for that smoke. Found valve guides worn excessively. Shims worn excessively and valve guide seals with wear.
Posted up some pics of the valve stem ends and Scott Foxwell clued me into the fact that I had some float going on and what proper lifter travel on the end of the stem should look like.
I remember thinking after I first got this engine running that I though I might be experiencing float due to it's behavior around 5500 to 5600 rpm. But I asked about symptoms for that and I wasn't experiencing any of the ones listed so I dismissed it and moved on. Should have trusted my gut.