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I think about 1200 rwhp is the point that its too much...No matter what tire/suspension you put on it will allow it to hook under 80 mph... Traction control is a must.
Jim, I bet your car is straight up insane... I imagine you are well over 1k to the wheels with only 10 psi.
I think you are just bragging how mean your car is,
I have no idea how much hp is too much but I dont even know for sure what is enough, some people love chest thumping bragging rights,
What I do believe is important for any build, street car to track beast is the owner/driver can handle what they have and if they can't they do what it takes to be safe and handle what they have,
Since I have no experence with the type racing you are into I would suggest you find other fellows who run c3's in the same events and see what the savvy fellows run to hook up and control what hp they have, spinning aint winning ( unless it's a burn out contest )
I see several fellows post on here that sound very savvy with racing their c3's I mean the real racers not the street car go fast wanna be's see what the racers think, get their opinions...
I have said this many times before, that once you go over 500 Gross HP, max 550, the additional power is unusable in a c3 chassis since putting that power through our chassis and 2 wheel drive is virtually impossible on street tires...
This may be so... but there are things to fix that, such as spreader bars, and gussets welded in at specified locations. And of course, tires have to be changed at this point to a more dedicated track tire... I am finding out.
Originally Posted by silvvette
I'm at 300 and to get 450 asap.
what motor mods do you have for 650?
its a small block 427, had a lot of help hear on the forum getting it together,,
Originally Posted by Shark Racer
It's such a tough one.
I had a 2007 Z06 for 2 years and a 2009 Z06 for about 4 years. It was a weird conundrum. Felt like too much power and not enough power. For the first 6 months it was great, even scary. Then I got used to the tirespin and going sideways and, more unfortunately, got used to the feeling of thrust.
There were times I actually thought the car was down on power. The thoughts of mild cams and LT headers, cold air intakes, etc adding 100+ hp frequently came to mind. But I tempered it with having a car that would obliterate the tires in first gear and was a bit scary on uneven or less than perfect pavement in any of the first four gears.
And now I have the engine in my 78 - which isn't as fast, and yet I have the same problem. I'm tempted for more.
I make myself happy by taking other people for rides and scaring the hell out of them. That's nearly as good as remembering the first time I got on it in the 2007 Z...
You understand... bit scary on uneven or less than perfect pavement in any of the first four gears no poo.... like it wants to take off!! omg!
Originally Posted by JoeC427
Originally Posted by MrJlr
Too much HP - when you snap off all 5 lug nuts going up a driveway
Got stronger lug nuts:-) and a rear end.....
Originally Posted by Gale Banks 80'
I know what You are talking about. Since Your a Road Racer You are all ready in a best case scenario, as in You are at speed in most all of the time, and there fore more controllable. As said above I would work on a Flatter Toque Curve. With my car I found that I could push the resume button on the Cruise control at 80 mph and have the tires break loose. At the Nevada 100 I could get up to my 140 mph speed quicker than most but that was only an advantage for the first mile. A stock car could go just as fast for the next 89 miles. Every thing I have done to the car since is to make it easier to drive. Flatter Toque Curve, shorter rear end Gears, lighter Clutch pressure, finer tuned Suspension.
you also get it:-) Chris Strub designed the cam... and its power band is quite broad, from somewhere around 2500-6500... and flat, not at all peeky.. just to much power everywhere.. until the new tires i guess
Originally Posted by ajrothm
I think about 1200 rwhp is the point that its too much...No matter what tire/suspension you put on it will allow it to hook under 80 mph... Traction control is a must.
Jim, I bet your car is straight up insane... I imagine you are well over 1k to the wheels with only 10 psi.
Could not even fathom that..
Originally Posted by The13Bats
I think you are just bragging how mean your car is,
I have no idea how much hp is too much but I dont even know for sure what is enough, some people love chest thumping bragging rights,
What I do believe is important for any build, street car to track beast is the owner/driver can handle what they have and if they can't they do what it takes to be safe and handle what they have,
Since I have no experence with the type racing you are into I would suggest you find other fellows who run c3's in the same events and see what the savvy fellows run to hook up and control what hp they have, spinning aint winning ( unless it's a burn out contest )
I see several fellows post on here that sound very savvy with racing their c3's I mean the real racers not the street car go fast wanna be's see what the racers think, get their opinions...
Bragging huh?.. no, every one here pretty much knows about my build... AND all the problems and hell I have gone through with the EZ EF2.0... no, My concern is honest, with my 383, which was fast... but very controllable... not just talking about keeping traction, which i think will be fixed with new tires, but I can see here, that before I was as good as the car... now the car is better than I. and therefor in some way, a lot less controllable. At lest for me... for now.
Myself, as well as my whole family are into racing,, and Resto-mods as well as original/stock. I on the other hand think the "customs" are usually flat out ugly and gody.. but if you were to post a picture of one of those, as maybe yours... should I ask if you are bragging? ... and since you have no experience racing, how are you capable of answering my original question anyway? Much less understanding it.
The general consensus on various performance websites is 500rwhp for the street. The car would also have a proper wheel/tire combination for 500rwhp, along with sufficient braking.
I study the mods done to modern cars to get ideas for my cars. A mod'd C6 Z06/ZR1 will easily put down 600rwhp. The cars are running 20 x12 rear wheels and performance rated tires. They have abs, stability control, and all sorts of computer nannies to keep them out of a ditch.
Another option is to study "drift cars". A vintage corvette with 500rwhp on stock wheels/tires would make an excellent "drifter". lol
In addition to changing the direction of power flow by 90 degrees (from the driveshaft to the axles), the purpose of the rearend gears is to multiply the torque delivered by the engine and transmission. Gears can be thought of as complex levers. In other words, they provide a mechanical advantage that multiplies work—in this case, torque—to help the engine's power move the vehicle. Lower gears are like a longer lever: They provide more mechanical advantage. Higher gears are like a shorter lever: They provide less mechanical advantage. It's similar to when you use a long breaker bar instead of a short ratchet handle to remove tight lug nuts. Just like a long bar puts more torque on a lug nut, lower axle gears provide more torque to the wheels.
It's very easy to calculate the torque multiplication provided by your axle gears—just multiply by the gear ratio. For example, let's assume that the engine and transmission are delivering 100 lb-ft of torque to the pinion gear. If the gear ratio of the ring-and-pinion is 4.10:1, then the output torque is 410 lb-ft (100x4.10). Similarly, if the gear ratio is 3.08:1, then the output torque will be 308 lb-ft. It's easy to see that the lower 4.10:1 gears put more power to the ground than the higher 3.08:1 gears. Keep in mind that the engine's power has not changed but that the available torque to the tires has.
If you want less torque to the tires to make it more manageable and hook up better this is one way to do it.
I remember gearing up my YZ250 to get less torque and thereby less tire spin on hard pack. In a two stroke , as you know, power is peaky and sudden, producing less torque at the rear wheels made it much more manageable in turns and actually made me faster.
I say throw money at the suspension or change the gearing up. I'm making the same power in a rotten chassis with every single bushing in my suspension shot and I handle it just fine. If you can put the pedal to the floor and not kick the *** end out, it's too slow. Racing (in any sense) is about throttle control and proper suspension tuning
I think this is where modern control systems have an advantage. Having the ability to make more power, but the ability to turn the "tune" down to match the conditions (to me) would be the ideal. The Top Fuel examples above cannot always use the power available, and have engine and clutch tuning so they can match what they can put to the track.
Definitely depends on the application and the purpose/set-up. Reference or comparison between a modern Top Fuel drag car, with optimized chassis and a 50+ year old Corvette design is just absurd.
I tried to hint at the topic in this thread. As far as I know, these are the two most successful, current drivers of our platforms, and each has made the most of chassis stiffening, available aftermarket mods and modern grip. Notice the disparity between the two in terms of power...IMHO the "too much hp" answer is somewhere between these two.
Are you thinking you'd be faster or at least get more enjoyment out of things if you could tone it down a bit? With your intake, a few restrictor plates might be worth trying...? We call you Red Dragon...
Paul: Have you considered doing L88 flares so you can run more wheel and tire? Your rwhp is +- a stock C6 ZR1. If you had Zr1 like rubber, the car may be more stable, assuming you've done suspension and brakes.
My car is not completed yet, but I ran 18 x 12 rears and 18 x 10 fronts with Michelin PS2's. The same combo in 19's would have been better as there are more tire options.
Well I don't know, but when 63mako asked me what power I would like, when I was in the process to buy my sbc 427, I said 500hp, no more, I don't need it.
I think that max. 500hp is a good choice for someone like me, driving with my kids, doesn't race ec ec.
I'm happy with my sbc 427, but I think a nice build 383 or 400 with 400hp would be enough for most. (in a old car)
I dough-no but I'm going to have a good data point shortly.
This was the first run, we tweaked the tune to top out at 750hp
Pretty sure I will be overhauling the suspension as you guys say......hopefully before I put it in the ditch.
That is a amazing dyno run!!!!! and a beautiful car!!! are you doing road race or 1/4 mile? I do not do 1/4 mile, just road race. a new rear end is coming for you also:-)
Originally Posted by uxojerry
The general consensus on various performance websites is 500rwhp for the street. The car would also have a proper wheel/tire combination for 500rwhp, along with sufficient braking.
I study the mods done to modern cars to get ideas for my cars. A mod'd C6 Z06/ZR1 will easily put down 600rwhp. The cars are running 20 x12 rear wheels and performance rated tires. They have abs, stability control, and all sorts of computer nannies to keep them out of a ditch.
Another option is to study "drift cars". A vintage corvette with 500rwhp on stock wheels/tires would make an excellent "drifter". lol
lol... no I'm not a drifter racer... but with these tires it drifts anyway!!!! lol.... the boys and I took out the vetted for a canyon run, Chris was behind me in his C4, he said every corner he followed me through I left tire a huge plum of tire smoke... I was in a controlled slide in every corner..
Originally Posted by REELAV8R
What if you put in a higher gear ratio rear end. 3.08, 2.73 etc.
If you want less torque to the tires to make it more manageable and hook up better this is one way to do it.
I remember gearing up my YZ250 to get less torque and thereby less tire spin on hard pack. In a two stroke , as you know, power is peaky and sudden, producing less torque at the rear wheels made it much more manageable in turns and actually made me faster.
The only gear I need change is the pos 5th od at .64.... that was my mistake
Originally Posted by Condo_454C3
I say throw money at the suspension or change the gearing up. I'm making the same power in a rotten chassis with every single bushing in my suspension shot and I handle it just fine. If you can put the pedal to the floor and not kick the *** end out, it's too slow. Racing (in any sense) is about throttle control and proper suspension tuning
lowered 2+" 600b front springs, 360 mono-leaf rear, Bilstine sports, front and read sway bars, spreader bar, rack and pinion steering, hydro boost braking with a full big brake willowood kit.
Originally Posted by fleming23
Put a real tire under that thing and let it eat!
definitely my next move
Originally Posted by 74modified
I think this is where modern control systems have an advantage. Having the ability to make more power, but the ability to turn the "tune" down to match the conditions (to me) would be the ideal. The Top Fuel examples above cannot always use the power available, and have engine and clutch tuning so they can match what they can put to the track.
i agree much of this.. but it has not been until the C7, that the electronics can match a highly (not me) skilled driver
Originally Posted by Postal123
Definitely depends on the application and the purpose/set-up. Reference or comparison between a modern Top Fuel drag car, with optimized chassis and a 50+ year old Corvette design is just absurd.
I tried to hint at the topic in this thread. As far as I know, these are the two most successful, current drivers of our platforms, and each has made the most of chassis stiffening, available aftermarket mods and modern grip. Notice the disparity between the two in terms of power...IMHO the "too much hp" answer is somewhere between these two.
Are you thinking you'd be faster or at least get more enjoyment out of things if you could tone it down a bit? With your intake, a few restrictor plates might be worth trying...? We call you Red Dragon...
Don't want to tone it down so much as control it better
Originally Posted by uxojerry
Paul: Have you considered doing L88 flares so you can run more wheel and tire? Your rwhp is +- a stock C6 ZR1. If you had Zr1 like rubber, the car may be more stable, assuming you've done suspension and brakes.
My car is not completed yet, but I ran 18 x 12 rears and 18 x 10 fronts with Michelin PS2's. The same combo in 19's would have been better as there are more tire options.
the L-88 flares are a possibility if the new tires prove to also be non productive. You are running 10's up front? i was told 8" is as big as you can get... ????
Lets say it is right 600hp and all associated components in the drive line are in pace to handle it. ( Including tires ) lol got ya paul ..
The best way to keep it usable is with electronics , I new going into my 427 build I would need a way to control output to match what I was doing under driving conditions.
One solution I looked into was the MSD Grid system with the idea of gaining control of the motors power output sort of like how a ZR1 does it with launch control. I had a fast FI system so I thought sweet ill combine the 2.
However after more research I decided on dropping the FAST FI .. And going to the Holley HP sequential multi port FI because this allows every thing the GRID from MSD does and it does it in one package so that I will not have a FI computer and an ignition system computer. I end up with it all in one system.
I expect with this immense amount of control over the motor I will be able to get all power to the ground , do it fast and not wast it on tire spin.
Lets say it is right 600hp and all associated components in the drive line are in pace to handle it. ( Including tires ) lol got ya paul ..
The best way to keep it usable is with electronics , I new going into my 427 build I would need a way to control output to match what I was doing under driving conditions.
One solution I looked into was the MSD Grid system with the idea of gaining control of the motors power output sort of like how a ZR1 does it with launch control. I had a fast FI system so I thought sweet ill combine the 2.
However after more research I decided on dropping the FAST FI .. And going to the Holley HP sequential multi port FI because this allows every thing the GRID from MSD does and it does it in one package so that I will not have a FI computer and an ignition system computer. I end up with it all in one system.
I expect with this immense amount of control over the motor I will be able to get all power to the ground , do it fast and not wast it on tire spin.
Sounds like a good plan but keep in mind physics here...no matter how much electronic aid on very high HP motors, there is only so much power that can be transferred through 2 wheels before any excess power becomes unuseable. One of the reasons that C6Z06 is only marignally slower than the C6ZR1 and the C7Z06 which boh have 638 NET/650 NET HP besides the slight weight advantage of the C6Z06 is that the additional 140 NET HP is NOT all useable in a 2 wheeel drive vehicle. 3.4 sec/3.2 sec 0-60 times would lower to 2.8-.9 with 4 wheel drive with that additonal HP...
The OP is asking, IMHO, How much is too much HP for "his" intended application. Like any system design, you have to trade all the requirements against what you want the car to be.
In my case, being a retired McDonnell, Boeing engineer, this is a hobby, so practically and to some degree cost was on the back burner. I wanted to keep the basic 69, L88 hood interface and its basic original look. That limited things like intake and head height, which then limited the engine performance. I still wanted to optimize what performance I could so, the all aluminum Dart 540 ci with Holley EFI was a given for me as a BB guy since my younger days. That makes the engine very light and street tolerant with plenty of performance. (750hp)
I hooked it up to a Tremec TKO 600 and plan to replace the 411 rear with 370.
I am taking a long look at the Ride Tech system for suspension upgrade. Hoping the cost comes down a little.
Bullshark
P.S The Holley EFI system will support adding Traction control, so that's probably on my list of additions.
02-19-2015, 10:16 PM
and a rear end..... 
I wanted to keep the basic 69, L88 hood interface and its basic original look. That limited things like intake and head height, which then limited the engine performance. I still wanted to optimize what performance I could so, the all aluminum Dart 540 ci with Holley EFI was a given for me as a BB guy since my younger days. That makes the engine very light and street tolerant with plenty of performance. (750hp)