mbhnm

Sounds like you made some pretty wise choices with your engine. The AFR 180's are something I contemplated myself and are pretty much ideal for a street engine. They are almost identical in flow to the HVH heads I have.

I agree that the Howard's cam is a good choice. I thought long and hard about using a Howard's cam myself. Ultimately I decided I didn't want to go with a roller cam retrofit in a non-roller block. Cost was a big factor for me, so that limited my choices a bit.

And you are correct that the 112 LSA is not ideal. If I followed Vizard's selection criteria I think a 108 would have been the optimum. I decided to make a slight compromise with the power output to get the sound I wanted.

If you want to send me a pic of your cam card on the Howard's cam I will plug it into DynoSim and we can compare the two cams on the same engine. Seems like the easiest way to see what the differences are.

jb78L-82

Can't locate the cam card at the moment but here are the specs:


CL111145-10 272 278-duration 219/225-Duration @ .050, .525/.525-lift 110-LSA 106 Hyd. Hyd. 1,2
1500-5600 Fair idle, Performance Street, Nice streetable mid range power. 1800+ stall suggested.

mbhnm

To get the best results in DynoSim I will need more specs off the card (IVO, IVC, EVO, EVC). Unfortunately Howard does not list them on their web site or in the catalog. I will email their customer service and see if they will send them. Having the part number will help. Might get them to send the CL111145-12 also. That would be interesting to compare.

mbhnm

Finally have enough parts together to start assembly. Kind of nice to see thing start to take shape but also a bit of trepidation when you think about the $ involved. The parts look really nice though. The crank has a nice sheen and is rated for 500 hp. The Keith Black Pistons are like little gems. Top of the line KB products at a very reasonable price. They are recessed for up to 2.18" valves. Alright, let’s put some stuff together.

The first step was to lube up the cam and slip it carefully. It ran nice and smooth so no problems there.



Cam safely seated

Next was the crankshaft. We pulled the mains, inserted the bearings, and liberally applied the lube. The next step was nerve wracking. Trying to insert a 50 pound crankshaft holding it by the ends with lube everywhere without dinging it on the forest of main studs sticking up or any of the mains. Got it safely seated!



Crank seated

Oops, the main seal is not seated correctly. ARGH! Have to pull it out again, hold it while Joe fixes the seal, then thread it back through the main studs. WHEW! Back in the cradle the second time. I hope the rest of the assembly is easier than this! (I could have pulled the studs to make this easier - try to remember that next time!)

Now for something easier, torquing down the main caps. Used a circular pattern starting from the center. I was unfamiliar with Joe's torque wrench so I opted to start at 35 and then increase in 10 lb increments until I got to 65. Went without a hitch. Now for the test spin.... Turns over nice and smooth. Joe says it feels right to him. Yipee!



Torquing the main caps

Now for the piston and rod assemblies. Joe took the pistons over to B&R Machine last week to get them assembled. We could have done it but I opted to go with the experts, especially putting on the rings. Break one and you are out the whole set. Next pic is of the assembled pistons and rods ready to go in the engine.



Pistons and rods back from B&R

We found we had a problem when we went to install the pistons. In the next picture you can see the correct orientation of the rods. They have a long side and a short side. The short sides are supposed to butt together like the picture, the long sides go against the crank journals.



Correct rod orientation

In the next pic you can see the problem. The rods are in the correct position but the reliefs on the top of one of the pistons is on the wrong side. Joe and I stewed over this for quite a while before we finally called Bill. When something like this goes wrong, you start questioning everything. Whether the long sides of the rods or the short ones go together, where the reliefs go, etc? By the time we called Bill we were totally confused.



Piston relief problem

Bill straightened us out pretty quickly. The pistons and rods were supposed to be installed as four rights and four lefts. The valve reliefs should all be in the center of the engine. Whoever put them together made them all rights. It is something you would quickly catch if you were putting them in the engine as we were, but not so easy if you are just putting them back in the box.

The solution was relatively simple, we needed to reverse the rods on four of the pistons. This required pulling out the spiral lock ring (see the picture, you can’t see it but it has two coils, like pulling out a really stiff slinky stuck in a groove), pulling the pin, flipping the rod, and putting it all back together again.

I asked Bill if there was some secret to this as Joe and I both already had band-aids from sharp edges on the pistons. Engines run better if you put a little blood in them! Bill said there was no trick (drats!), pry them out with a little screwdriver and use gloves or have a lot of band-aids. The other option was to bring them back in and he would fix them.



Spiral lock ring partially pulled

Knowing what we needed to do I forged ahead and started pulling lock rings. Joe said he had never seen this type and since he was on blood thinner he opted to let me work with the lock rings. The best method turned out to be pry them out little by little with a pair of small screw drivers and put them back in the same way. By the time I had done four of them I had gotten pretty good at it.

Now that the pistons and rods were correctly oriented they were ready for assembly.

More in the next post!!!

jb78L-82

That would be great..I am traveling for work this week but will try and locate the cam card when home this weekend...Thank You

mbhnm

No need. I emailed Howard's customer service and had the complete cam cards for both cams in 15 minutes. I like those Howard's people!

Here are the cam specs on the 111145-10



Howard's 111145-10 cam card

And the 111145-12



Howard's 111145-12 cam card

Now the comparison. On the left is the Comp Cams L79. In the middle is the Howard Cams 111145-10. On the right is the Howard Cams 111145-12.



L79, 111145-10, and 111145-12 comparison

There is a difference between the horsepower output of the 110LCA cam and the two 112LCA's, but not much. So Vizard's cam selection rules seem accurate in this comparison. For this engine (383) LCA 110 > LCA 112.

The Howard's 111145-12 is also ahead of the L79 on torque. But the difference in the figures is really rather small between all three cams (hp = 1%, tq = 2%).

All three cams seem to produce maximum horsepower and torque at the same location on the power band. The curves are not as different as one might expect.

So it appears that the L79 and the 111145-12 are roughly equivalent. What one does with higher lift the other accomplishes by longer duration.

The 111145-10 is the winner in this comparison but not by much. Of course, both roller cams have a clear edge when it comes to longevity. And the Howard's cams are probably going to be a little better behaved than the L79 because of their lower duration. The cost factor you have to decide for yourself.

When it comes to customer service the Howard's people really seem to be on the ball!

All three of these simulations were run using the "closest to the dyno" settings of my own engine. All I did was change the cam profiles. Keep in mind that simulations are better for comparison that determining actual output of the engine. I find DynoSim to be overly generous in the Torque department (about 3-4% over).

That was a fun exercise! Hope it helps someone.

jb78L-82

That's pretty cool...Thank so much for doing...interesting.

mbhnm

I had to put the rods in a vise to break the rod bolts loose. The rod bolts are special units made by ARP for Eagle and come torqued down for shipment. Use a rag to protect the rods from the vise jaws. Once the bolts are loose you have to tap the saddle of the rod with a rubber hammer to break it loose from the rod. Then you take out the bolts.

Since the assemblies had been sitting around for a few days, I opted to spray them down with WD-40 and wipe them off to remove any dust or debris. Then I installed the rod bearing and lubed them with engine assembly lube. The rod bolts get special ARP lube. You have to make sure not to get the lubes mixed up. The piston assembly in the picture is ready to install. I also wiped down the piston bores thoroughly before assembly to make sure they were clean.


ARP and engine assembly lubes

Joe had bought a special ring compressor designed for 0.30 over pistons. It is a tapered cone that compresses the rings as you slide the piston through. It is the blue item in the background. The standard ring compressor is in the foreground. It is essentially a sleeve that clamps over the piston and rings, then you slip them out of the sleeve into the bore.


Blue tapered ring compressor and old style squeeze compressor

I have found traditional clamp type compressors to be a lot of trouble. They are hard to get properly tensioned, hard to keep straight, and the rings often hang on the edge of the bore if you don’t get it exactly right. So I opted to use the new unit, the only problem was that Joe had never used it and did not know how it worked.

The solution took a few tries but turned out to be pretty simple. Coat the piston thoroughly with oil. Then put the piston top down on a hard surface and slide the blue compressor sleeve big end first over the piston from the bottom. You have to compress the rings slightly with your fingers to get them in but it is not hard once you get the hang of it. The taper inside the sleeve takes care of compressing the rings. Oh, be sure that the gaps on the piston rings are opposite each other when you assemble them or you might have a compression leak.

Once the compression sleeve is over the rings, you flip the whole assembly over and slip it in the bore. The piston skirt sticks out of the compressor sleeve so it is very easy to locate in the bore. Then holding the end of the rod to keep it from scratching the crank, you tap the piston in the bore with the wood end of the mallet. Works pretty slick! The new compressor turned out to be much easier than the old type. And I think Joe said he only paid $25 for it.


Tapping the piston in the bore

When you have the rod seated correctly on the crank, you put the rod saddle back on and install the bolts, snugging them up without tensioning them. We will torque the rod bolts when all are installed. Repeat the above process seven more times and you have a rotating assembly. After about half are installed you have to use Joe’s special tool (made from a lower timing chain sprocket - pic in a later post) to turn the engine over as the drag from the rings makes it hard to do it by hand.

Next it’s time to flip the engine over and torque the rod bolts. Eagle recommends 40 ft. lb. using ARP lube. I use the same step procedure to work up to the final torque that I used on the main studs. Double check everything just to make sure. Flip the engine over and rotate the assembly. Everything feels smooth.

Now for the moment of truth. Did all my calculations actually work in the real world? We turned the engine until piston one is TDC and checked how far the piston is in the hole. Measure .016. Joe thinks that is too high. I don't remember, have to go home and pull my calculations. Put everything away and drive home thinking, "I hope I didn't mess up ... hope. I didn't mess up ...."

Fire up the computer … come on computer, get with it! ... crunch the numbers. The figure comes up ... 0.017. Whew! Only off 1 thousandth. And that is probably due to a combination of the light milling and line boring done by B&R. Seems they didn't have to take much off.

Next crunch some more numbers for compression ratio. Shooting for 10.3 to 1, have to be below 10.5. Come up with 10.14 to one. Call Joe. Says he was wrong when he told me 10.5. Has to be below 10.3. He thinks 10.14 is right where we should be.

Spend the next night trying to sort out the head gasket. Want one close to the bore. Most are 4.166 or more, too big a hole. After two hours find the Fel-Pro 1043 which is perfect, 4.080 bore in the gasket and .039 thickness. Crunch the numbers again. 10.15 to 1. Sounds good.

Check the hotrod boards for the Fel-Pro 1043. One builder says it is perfect for anything up to 4.060 piston. Mine is 4.030, great! He also says if you want to run pump gas the max compression is 10.25. I am a point below that, should be no problem. Re-run the calculations in CamQuest6 with the 10.15 compression. 425hp. Cool!

Talk to Joe again. Says his Malibu 355 Chevy is running 10.3 to 1 instead of the 10.5 he remembered and he is on the ragged edge with 91 octane. Sounds like I am in good shape. Rotating assembly is done!

cv67

Sounds like youre taking your time and asking questions.Too many wouldnt have caught the rod/piston thing then gotten on the boards when things sounded funny come start time.

softwarejanitor

I even painted my aluminum heads, intake and valve covers orange on a Chevelle I put a 383 into back in the late 1980s... I even made some little heat shields to cover the tops of the headers so they looked more like stock exhaust manifolds. I then got the engine as dirty looking as possible so that it looked like a beater... Pissed off a lot of Mustang GT and IROC-Z owners back in those days when a beat up old 1972 Chevelle with a completely stock looking engine whooped the shiny new car that daddy bought them when they went off to college... That car was 3 colors + primer because it had been rear ended before I got it and I never got it re-painted after replacing the trunk lid and rear bumper + valence. I was a townie where I went to school.

"But it's old and dirty!"

The really dirty trick was I welded some fittings into the header collectors and ran a hose from a little priming pump so I could squirt a little oil into the exhaust to make it look like it was burning oil...

GOSFAST

Take that "red" lube off the lobes immediately, get some "moly" and move forward!

If not, you may very well be replacing that "stick" in short order.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Just my take on this type build but I would use a roller cam in a heartbeat, no issues with "flat-lobes" and 30 HP add'l automatically!! With the hyd-roller platform you "start it and idle away". No more cam break-in time.

mbhnm

Hey Gary,

I have been puzzling over cam profiles all weekend trying to find the source of your "30 HP automatically" using a roller over a flat tappet. What I find is that comparable cam profiles (duration and lift) with roller and flat tappets seem to produce pretty much the same horsepower. I tried this using both Comp Cams profiles and Crower.

What I did find is that CamQuest6 seems to always show a significant increase in horsepower for roller cams. For the same profiles DynoSim5 does not. Here is a sample.

Here are the figures for the Comp Cams flat tappet 12-246-3 (230/236 duration, .49/.49 lift, 110LSA) on my engine.
CamQuest6: 457.1 HP @ 6000, 473.1 TQ @ 4000.
DynoSym5: 451HP @ 5500, 492 TQ@3500.

Next I ran Comp Cams hydraulic roller 12-432-8 (230/236 duration, .51/.52 lift, 110LSA). This is the closest cam profile I could find to the 12-246-3. There is only a slight lift change producing the following.
CamQuest6: 496.9 HP @ 6000, 492.2 TQ @ 4000.
DynoSym5: 455HP @ 5500, 488 TQ@4000.

So CamQuest6 (Comp Cams software) claims a huge difference between the flat tappet and roller versions of very similar Comp Cams profiles. DynoSym5 does not. This is a bit suspicious.

If you have a source for the 30HP automatically idea I would like to see their logic.



Thanks
Mark

mbhnm

You, my friend, are hard core! I toyed with painting the heads and intake to disguise the engine but never thought about going to the extent you did. My hat is off to you.

softwarejanitor

I don't think he meant that a roller cam will give you 30HP over a similar flat tappet profile, I think he meant that particular level of grind of roller cam will typically give you 30 HP over a stock flat tappet cam. I've no doubt that a roller cam with similar specs will give you slightly more HP than a flat tappet cam, but probably more like 2-5 HP more. The reason for that is lower friction resistance (which also gives you lower heat which helps power) plus a roller cam can open and close the valves much quicker than a flat tappet cam can and and that will either give you more effective duration from the same advertised duration or smoother running due to reducing overlap or both. The other reason a roller cam will give you more HP though, is combined with roller rockers and a double roller timing set you can usually increase reliable red line RPM compared to a flat tappet cam.

All in all, I have to agree with the people who recommend going with a roller cam -- it is worth the extra money. And not having to futz around with ZDDP additives, special cam break-in, etc., plus longer cam life really makes the extra cost less significant.

softwarejanitor

I had a few guys get really pissed that I "hustled" them...

mbhnm

Finding the mismatch on the piston assembly saved me a number of headaches for sure!

Here are some rules I developed during the build process.

1. Even the experts can make mistakes. The shop that assembled my pistons has done tens of thousands of motors. All it takes is for one guy to have one bad day or one too many interruptions.

2. Don’t assume anything. Before I started this build I assumed that heads and intake for a SBC should all just bolt together. But when I compared the head and intake ports my intake ports were off nearly 1/8 of an inch. Joe said he has seen worse! This is the reason specialists like HVH are in business. You may not gain any horsepower by port matching but you can sure loose horsepower if you don’t

3. Everybody has an opinion. It is your engine, you have to make the ultimate decision about what to do because you are going to have to live with it. Listen to what people suggest – they might have a better idea – but make your own decision.

4. Triple check everything. If you don’t buy into this one try searching “engine blow up dyno” on YouTube.

5. Experts disagree. I was planning to go with a 680 carb. My carb builder (20 years of experience) talked me into a 730 saying the 680 was too small for my 383. My dyno guy said the 730 was too large for my engine and showed me the figures. 650 would have been fine. Only would have made 3 less horsepower at the top end and would have had sharper throttle response everywhere else.

6. Check every source. Rules of thumb might be based on fact but they might also come from someone who is blowing smoke.

7. Research, research, research. Read everything you can find related to the engine you want to build and the parts you want to build it with. Don’t make a decision until you are sure. If you don’t have time to research, you probably shouldn’t be building an engine.

mbhnm

I agree with pretty much everything you said. If you have the money a roller is the way to go. It is the "30HP automatically" that I have a problem with.

Nothing automatically produces 30 horsepower when building an engine. Everything has to work together. Since this thread is will likely draw a lot of guys looking at building their first engine, I don't want to pass along a misconception.

Another thing that bothers me is that CamQuest6 seems to clearly overstate the benefits of running a roller cam, at least a Comp Cams roller.

I had a pretty high opinion of CamQuest6 until I ran those figures. Now I will stick with DynoSim5.

GOSFAST

Hi Mark, I stumbled on this post too late and you're way to deep into the build to effect any "change" at this stage.

Couple things, if those are KB134 pistons they are rated at 11:1 (with a 64 cc head) and use heavy rings. I would recommend no less ring gaps (top only) than .030", .032" would even be "safer". Any closer and you'll run the risk of "lifting" the top lands. This pertains to KB "hypers" ONLY.

On a side note, just curious if you have a "very-accurate" crank snout measurement and which damper & flywheel you chose?? Watch the damper press fit with ANY Eagle cast piece, it's a critical number! We use no Eagle cast shafts, we do use their 4340's with 6.000" rods on most SB units! OEM SBC shaft snouts measure 1.246" (cast or steel), no less.

Most of the 383's we deliver now are "bolt-together" 480/520 HP and 480+ Torque. Under 10:1 C.R. and 100% roller. Most are Comp equipped retro-hyd units! I do use the "-8" (cast) cam cores with the factory dist gear and fuel pump rod (if applicable).

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. That 30 HP figure I posted is the "nominal" gain we've found between the flat-tappet vs roller setup over some 40 years of actual dyno testing! I own most of the dyno-sim software, in my opinion ALL of it is for "recreational enjoyment" only.

mbhnm

Thanks for taking time to clarify Gary. And I appreciate the input from a builder. You are correct that it is too late to help with my build but maybe it could help someone else. That is what this series is all about.

It has been a while since I was at this stage with the engine so I don't remember some of the exact figures, I didn't think to write it down at the time. The damper and flexplate came with the rotating assembly from Eagle.

I totally agree that there is no substitute for dyno experience. Dyno software is at best a "rough estimate" but for those of us with no access to a dyno (and a tight budget) that is all we have to work with. It does really help when you guys with experience chip in to help out the rest of us.

Again, thanks a bunch!

mbhnm

Next up was the timing chain install. Since the block has been line bored there was a question as to whether we would need a shortened timing chain or not. Line boring reduces the distance between the crank and the cam slightly. They make special shorter chains (-0.005 and -0.010) to work in case there is too much slack in the chain.

The timing chain is from SA Gear. It is not the top of the line model, but a significant step up from factory. You can pay a lot more money and not get much more chain. Joe said it is way more than adequate for a street motor, he has used them a number of times.



Timing chain, lock plate, and bolts

This chain is a double roller (stock is single, non roller) which you can see in the pictures and has 0.020 chain pins, the next step up has 0.025 pins which is about 50% higher cost and unnecessary for our planned usage. This chain I bought was only $5 more than a stock one, so it is a nice upgrade for the price.

You can also get timing sets that allow you to advance or retard the timing. In our case the L79 cam already comes with 4 degrees of advance dialed into the grind, so there is no reason to buy an adjustable timing set.

Oh, and a word about cam buttons. You can buy a button that goes on the front of the cam that keeps it from slipping out of place. It rubs on the inside of the timing cover if the cam starts to walk. But these are only necessary if you are using a roller cam, flat tappets are held in place by the timing chain. You also have to know how long a button you need and so forth. A cam button was not necessary for our application.

Before we started installing the timing chain I bolted the oil pan on and turned the crank over to see if it cleared. Joe said if there is interference it is usually the counterweights on the stroker crank. Using stock oil pans he always has to take a ball peen hammer to a few spots on the oil pan to clear the crank.



Checking oil pan clearance

I installed the oil pan without a gasket figuring that if it cleared without a gasket, it should certainly clear with one. Rotated the crank with the special tool Joe made (in the picture) and it worked perfectly, no clearance problems. I was not expecting any as the Canton pan is supposed to be clearance for up to a 3.8” crank and we are using a 3.75” (stock 350 is 3.48”), but it never hurts to check. I think the Canton pan was worth the money. "Made in the USA" stamped right on it.

The first step in installing the timing chain is to install the lower sprocket on the crank. You can buy a special tool for this but you can do it the old fashioned way with a socket and hammer. You don’t have to hit it hard but it does take some force. That is what I am doing in the picture with the socket.



Installing the crank sprocket

Then you line up the two dots on the pulleys, put the chain on the sprockets, and bolt the cam sprocket down. They make a bolt set that has a lock plate to keep the cam bolts from working their way out. It is only $3 and cheap insurance against a problem. In the picture we don’t have the tabs cinched on the locking plate because we could not find the torque specs. We can take care of that later. The most important thing is to find out whether the chain I have will work.

My calculations had suggested that we were only 0.001” under stock length for which a standard length chain would work, but you never know until you actually test it. After the install Joe checked the play in the chain and pronounced it a success. It’s nice when reality conforms to your expectations… or your mathematics!



Timing chain installed

Flipped the engine over and rotated through a couple of turns, no binding anywhere and seem smooth. Here’s the video of the test.



Next was looking up torque specs for the lock plate and cinching down the bolts. There are many torque spec sheets for the SBC available online. You can find them at most auto parts dealers’ websites. What you need to remember is that those specs are for as stock engine. If you are using upgraded or aftermarket parts the torque specs might not be the same. For example, the torque setting for cam bolts for an SBC is 18-20 ft. lbs. The torque spec for a Comp Cams bolt and lock set (#4605) is 25 ft. lbs. So proper spec and torque wrench in hand, we set torqued the bolts and set the tabs on the lock plate.

If you want to be absolutely sure that your engine timing is correct (a significant factor if you are retrofitting or installing a timing set that has options for advance or retard) you can “degree” the camshaft with the engine. You will need to purchase some additional tools. The instructions can be found a number of places including Comp Cams web site so I won’t go into the process here.

Next up was installing the timing cover. I had a stock timing cover from one of the 350 blocks that was in pretty good shape so I decided to use it. Cleaned it and painted it up to match the engine and installed it. You can see it in the following pic. It was not until later that I found we had a problem.



350 timing cover

When we went to dyno the engine it was significantly out of time. This caused considerable head scratching. The end result was that the 400 balancer and the 350 timing cover were not compatible causing the timing marks to be off. I have since read that this is not simply a 400 crank 350 engine problem. The timing cover and balancer were designed at the factory to provide access to the timing marks when the accessories were installed. So depending on what year engine you have and what it is out of, the timing cover and balancer may not match. Once again you can’t assume something will work.

John compensated for the problem on the dyno by checking tdc and painting some new marks on the balancer. Later I pulled the cover and changed it to one without a pointer and then bought an adjustable timing pointer. Problem solved!