mobird

Hey guys, I have a 1979 C3 4-speed with a stock Goodwrench 350 crate engine. It also has the stock exhaust manifolds, but with true dual exhaust.


My eventual plan is to make a 383 stroker out of the motor, but I'm not quite ready for that so I want to see what I can get out of the stock bottom end first. I am aware of the Hotrod magazine build article by the way, but I have some more specific questions.


I have about a grand to spend on the motor at the moment. Is it worthwhile to invest in some smaller chamber aluminum heads right now (64cc) to boost the compression a little and get better flow even though I'm running stock intake and exhaust manifolds? Or should I invest in an upgraded intake (edelbrock performer RPM with drop base) and full headers and then save up another grand for some heads later on?


Also, I planned to change the cam when I changed the heads, but if I go the intake/headers and exhaust route first, should I go ahead and change the cam to something with a bit more lift and duration? I was thinking of going with one of the budget Summit solid roller cams.


Thanks

cv67

Many ways to do this those motors dont have much compression so got to be careful

Your budget will tell all


If it were me id buy a set of 64cc AFR 180s flat mill them some more, if you had to keep a flat tappet something similar to an Isky 264 mega cam good dual plane curve the dist and a well tuned Qjet or Holley 650. Know theres "better" cams out there but those grinds work well and dont kill off valvetrain pieces love that old line of cams...and never had one go flat either

If you have less to spend and are good with a grinder pick up a set of used 113s, theres your compression and try to pull another 30-40cfm out of them stock valve sizes to keep costs down.

1-5/8 primary headers to your dual exhausts.


Or just drive as is and slowly put together your stroker as youll need larger heads etc etc to make it all work. A 396ci sbc would be sweet!

Edit missed you wanted a solid roller careful of the rpm those like with the stock bottom end. As much as I like em dont think youll see a lot of benefit if youre running the motor to say 5500-6k max

mobird

Good info. I have a couple questions though. Wouldn't I be able to re-use whatever heads I get on my stroker motor? I figured even with 64cc chambers as long as I use flat top pistons I should have an acceptable compression ratio.


Also, as far as cam goes, I guess it doesn't have to be a solid roller, but I thought that would be the way to go with my flat tappet setup. What would you recommend instead? Looking for a nice solid lope at idle, and good power throughout the rev range (6000 RPM is as high as I ever rev it). Preferably something from the Summit line (I've heard good things about them considering how ridiculously cheap they are)

GAVelle

As a point of reference, I faced the same situation with a 1970 Chevelle. After the warranty on the Goodwrench motor expired, I first replaced the heads with 186 heads that I had removed from my 1969 Corvette. (186 are small chamber heads with much better combustion shape and size than the Goodwrench heads.) I also installed Summit brand 1.6 ratio roller tip rockers. Torque and performance across the board picked up substantially. I eventually replaced the heads with Edelbrock E-Street series aluminum heads (about $1,000 right now; if you wait and get a 20% off coupon from Autozone, you would be able to get them for about $750 - I did this for a second pair that I have sitting on the shelf right now waiting to go into my 1971 Corvette). Back to the Chevelle, I also replaced the Goodwrench cam with the smallest roller cam from Howards Cams. Torque is even better and high end much improved vis-à-vis the Goodwrench cam. When I had the 186 heads and Goodwrench cam, I had some detonation problems and I did not open up the pushrod guides, so with the 1.6 rockers some of the pushrods were starting to wear where they passed through the heads. I still had to retard the timing slightly with the aluminum heads and Howards cam, but overall the car runs great with plenty of top end an d seems matched perfectly with the 3.08 rear gear and automatic transmission.

My 1971 Corvette project has the original heads, but the previous owner had replaced the short block with one from a 1972 Chevelle, which has the dished pistons and two bolt mains, which makes it essentially a Goodwrench motor for all practical purposes except only having two-bolt mains. The cam is unknown. My plan is to check compression in all cylinders, and if acceptable, replace the original 1971 heads with the Edelbrock E-Street that are sitting on the shelf and depending on the measured cam lift, install high ratio rockers, perhaps even 1.7 ratio from Scorpion. I think even if the 1971 has a stock cam, which would essentially make the motor the same as the Goodwrench engine, with the aluminum heads and high ratio rockers the car should drive pretty nicely. If I replace the cam, I will probably replace with a Luniati Voodoo 60101 cam, so as to retain similar seat-to-seat timing as the stock 929/Goodwrench cam. Another point to mention is that if you install a roller cam in an old-style block like the Goodwrench, you will have to make sure to use a cam button to keep the cam from moving forward and you will also have to make sure that the distributor gear is of the right metallurgy so it won't get chewed up by the harder material often used in roller cams.

John

Dynra Rockets

There are countless recipes to build a 350. "Don't throw good money after bad" as they say. Spending money to build an engine incrementally is almost always a way to spend more money than just getting the engine you want in the first place.

That said, I was in a similar situation a while back and I just threw some 1986 L98 "128" 58cc aluminum heads on with 1.52/1.6 rockers to tide me over until I could get a real engine built. The heads were purchased at a swap meet in bolt-on condition for $200 and the rockers were $100 IIRC. Nice bump in power for $300 + gaskets.

cv67

OP I dont think youd be happy with the 383 stuff on the 350

The 180s can work and be reused but if it were me Id step up to a 195 (comp port if you have it)on the 383, a HR cam or smallish solid if you have to have it)

If you kept the compression around 10.5 10.8 you could run pump all day without worry provided you get the cam right. will need a better carb also. Those heads dont need a ton of timing nor a huge cam to run well

Drive your Goodwrench, save your money and put together something nice. You can use either 1-5/8 or 1-3/4 header wiht the 383 if its not seeing more than 6k. Will be trainloads of fun it will feel like a bigblock literally.

see member tpi421vette for a pair before calling Summit.
pm me for his phone if you like. Nice guy


Edit: if you have to have a little bump now see if you can pick up a set of nice 113s, a better flat tappet headers, good tune and leave it be. Wont spend much, can have a little fun while building something stout

OR, stick a weiand 144 or something similar on it.
Now youre talking!

mobird

Thanks for all the info guys!


Another question, what would be the problem with running some 195 heads (what you recommend for the 383) on the 350?


I guess my overall question is: what are some good budget aluminum heads with ~64cc chambers and good flow that I can use both on my 350 and eventually on my 383?


I was considering either these Summit heads: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-162111/overview/


Or these Blueprint heads:


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mll-h8002k/overview/


But I'm open to suggestions if you think either of those would be a bad idea.

cv67

None really just plan what piston you want to use for your 383 so the heads you buy have the right size combustion chamber or close so you could mill a little if need be.

Do not use cheap solid roller lifters, thats one thing you have to spend money on.

Do not recommend running cheapie heads either. They are cheap for a reason dont fall for it. Most of them are the same chinese mfr with another name on it. Opinions will vary. Same with those 383 kits on ebay you know the ones with crazy long wordy ads, bunch of mismatched junk!

mobird

Thanks again for the advice!


Would you consider Summit or Blueprint cheap Chinese heads?


I was under the impression that they both make quality heads on a budget (I think Summit's are even made by Brodix??)

mobird

So basically at the moment my budget is ~$1000. I can spend a little bit more if need be. So with that in mind, is it worthwhile to put some 64cc aluminum heads on even though I'll be running stock intake and exhaust manifolds for awhile? Or am I better off spending that money on full length headers and a better intake manifold?

Shark Racer

OK -

I would start by putting full length headers on that car and nothing else. 1 5/8 would be good for the current engine, 1 3/4 would be better for what you want to grow into.

I don't think you'll see much at all playing with an intake manifold, but if you do go into a Performer RPM you'll likely see it working well with a set of AFR 195s, particularly the comp ports.

What cuisinart said above is true - building incrementally will cost more. At a minimum, you're sinking cash into soft parts like gaskets (and your time!). On the other side of the scale, what will work well in this build may not be enough for a more serious engine.

With good static CR, the 195s will be OK. They will shift your powerband up a little, and be corked by the stock intake. It seems most people go with the larger chamber (74-76cc) heads which give a little bit more flexibility in setting up for quench, playing w/ headgaskets etc.

IOW, you're stepping into a can of worms. There's a lot of bang for buck in basics w/ a GW350; headers, proper advance timing and a well-running carb will get you moving pretty well. This is a 250HP engine if it's uncorked (and no accessories) - with a good exhaust system and headers, theoretically you should be able to see 220-230 net HP out of it with a stock intake manifold and accessories hooked up.

FWIW, I've lived exactly what you're asking about. I started with a GW350, recurved the dist, added headers and then went on to tossing a pair of heads and cam on it (old style AFR 195s).

I then tossed it all except for the headers, carb and dist and put a better built 400 under it (roller cam, new AFR 195 eliminators, 10.24:1 CR). Night and day difference even though I didn't go up a lot in lift and just went to a newer gen head. Probably > 100 hp and 100 tq by planning it all to work well together.

0BluePrint Engines

Hello MoBird

We saw your post here and wanted to thank you for your interest in BluePrint Engine's Muscle Series aluminum heads.

On your engine build, we totally understand working under budgets. The other members here have had great suggestions as well.

One thing to remember about building for performance is that cylinder heads are everything to making power. Unfortunately, 1979 was not a great time for performance from any car company. The fastest American vehicle in '78 and '79 was the Dodge Lil Red Express pickup!! So, budgeting in a good set of heads is necessary to getting good power. The original heads, often casting # 882's, did not have great combustion chamber design even though they had nearly identical port design as the old fuelie heads. The low compression dished pistons of the 350's of this era added to the problem. GM's advertised compression of 8.5:1 was based on the pistons being zero decked, but they averaged more like .024" below deck. This made them more like 8.0:1 compression There wasn't much quench and why you can near 50* timing advance without knocking and pinging.

With a stock 350, in good condition, and a moderate performance cam, with something near .500 lift and 230 duration @.050; will boost up the engine's performance and still be a daily driver. You mentioned looking at Summit Racing's camshafts. They have some very affordable performance camshafts. Unfortunately, the original heads will limit the horsepower to about 275-300.

Our testing has shown as much as 80 hp increase using our Muscle Series 195cc heads on a 350 with this combo, over some of the factory head castings. That is a serious amount of power from a bolt on item. The 64cc combustion chambers have a heart shape design that not only increase compression to a more performance level of 9:1 to 9.25:1, but the chamber design works much better with the factory dished pistons to increase flame travel across the piston.

Going up to a 383 stroker later will increase horsepower and torque even more and not hurt drivability. BluePrint also has short blocks available that will not break the bank account.

Best wishes for you and your Vette.

Scott Liggett
BluePrint Engines
1(800)483-4263
info@blueprintengines.com
www.blueprintengines.com

gdh

I would not be adding parts incrementally, seen more ppl spend big $ that way and end up with a dog. As others have said, lots of ways to build an engine but to be happy with the end results everything must be planned out so that the combination works best for your needs and useage ie. street/strip. I'd do what Shark was advising to try to eak out the best out of what you have now - recurve the distr, ensure carb is setup. Once you determine hat you want out of your 383 and its primary use then the fun starts - heads, cam, pistons, rings, crank, cast/forged parts, header size, exhaust etc. You could easilly blow your budget on parts that won't help your current setup and may not be what you would have purchased once you have the funds for your stroker.

mobird

Thanks for the info. It's good to see Manufacturer's keeping up with their products on the forum.

One question: do you happen to have the flow numbers handy for these heads? I'm curious what CFM they flow.

Thanks

mobird

THanks for the well written response. I would go straight for full length headers right now, however I'm kinda thinking I want sidepipes (still a full header-collector setup). Unfortunately, I was planning on going with the OBX side pipes (essentially a Hooker clone) after some research on them, but they've been out of stock for a while. I'm waiting and hoping they come back in stock. If they don't, I probably won't go side pipes since Hooker's cost ~$1000 and that seems excessive for an exhaust setup.

0BluePrint Engines

Here is the link to our H8002K's web page. The flow data is on there.

http://www.blueprintengines.com/inde...cylinder-heads

There seems to be a bit of confusion about our cylinder heads. BluePrint Engines has a full engineering and design team that designed these in house. These guys have all kinds of fun tools from CAD software to 3D printers and digital scanners. They are designing many of the engine parts that BluePrint is now using to build our engines, from blocks, cranks, rods, timing covers, intake manifolds, and our cylinder heads. BluePrint has moved from being just a machine shop to a fully realized engine manufacturer.

While we do not own the foundry where our heads are cast, we own the tooling the foundry uses. We control how they are made. The castings are then fully machined and assembled by our head department at our factory here in Nebraska, where all of our crate engines are built.

We are so sure of the performance and quality of these heads that we use these exact same ones on many of our crate engines that we back with a 30 month/50,000 mile warranty.

Scott Liggett
BluePrint Engines
1(800)483-4263
info@blueprintengines.com
www.blueprintengines.com

augiedoggy

you can get an rpm clone intake with a drop based air cleaner for under $100.. craigslist and ebay are full of even real edelbrock RPM intakes for $50... I sold one myself on there last year...they are made from a block of aluminum... they dont wear out so no real worries there with buying used.
and drop air cleaners are cheap...

Summit cams are all real old grinds... There are reasonable modern dual pattern cams that will give you much better performance for $50 or so more so why skimp there?

I also second 64cc heads... its what I went with on my budget build. I run then with 4 relief flat tops (iron eagle heads I grabbed for $300 on craigslist) and have no issues running 89 octane gas due to my lunati voodo 262 cam bleeding off some compression.

mobird

Well the only problem is I need the 7104 RPM intake for the spreadbore carb pattern of my Q jet. Maybe I'm just searching the wrong way because I couldn't find any? If you see some, send me a link! I'm all about buying used and saving money.


I'll take your advice on the cams. I'm just starting to learn about them. Most of the reason I was going to go with a summit flat tappet is because I figured in a year or so when I go 383 I'll probably go with a different cam grind, so I didn't want to spend a ton on a cam that might only be run for a year.

And again, how did you find such a good deal on heads?? I've been checking craigslist pretty regularly and I only seem to find really old stock iron heads. Nothing really good on the performance side.

mobird

That was exactly the info I was looking for, thank you! Pretty solid flow numbers.

augiedoggy

I used a spreadbore adapter on the one I sold last year... I didnt realize you were sticking with the quadrajet (Not that there is anything wrong with that its a good carb)

the thing with cams is the bigger you go the more power they make at higher rpms and the less power they make in the actual driving range you will likely use 99% of the time... you have to go with a mild cam unless your changing gearing... see my rant in the recent top end kit thread..