Help to choose a Top End kit for a 350/290
05-05-2016, 02:42 PM
#1
Help to choose a Top End kit for a 350/290
Hi, all.
I need a decent top end kit for my GM Goodwrench 350/290 powered 1980 C3 to go above 400hp, but my knowledge about engine performance is very poor. Therefore I appreciate your advice.
My budget is $2500.
Thanks in advance.
I need a decent top end kit for my GM Goodwrench 350/290 powered 1980 C3 to go above 400hp, but my knowledge about engine performance is very poor. Therefore I appreciate your advice.
My budget is $2500.
Thanks in advance.
05-05-2016, 02:51 PM
#2
have you read the Super Chevy 8 part series on this topic
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/463...-engine-build/
the others can be found by googling "super chevy goodwrench build"
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/463...-engine-build/
the others can be found by googling "super chevy goodwrench build"
05-05-2016, 04:07 PM
#3
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: altered state
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St. Jude Donor '05
What gear is in your car, auto?
100hp honest hp is doable but you may sacrifice some manners to get there.
Take headers, carb/ign adjustment etc into consideration
Get the best cyl head you can possibly afford, the power will come easier
Or toss a 144/177 blower on it, headers tune and enjoy.
100hp honest hp is doable but you may sacrifice some manners to get there.
Take headers, carb/ign adjustment etc into consideration
Get the best cyl head you can possibly afford, the power will come easier
Or toss a 144/177 blower on it, headers tune and enjoy.
05-06-2016, 02:37 AM
#4
have you read the Super Chevy 8 part series on this topic
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/463...-engine-build/
the others can be found by googling "super chevy goodwrench build"
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/463...-engine-build/
the others can be found by googling "super chevy goodwrench build"
What gear is in your car, auto?
100hp honest hp is doable but you may sacrifice some manners to get there.
Take headers, carb/ign adjustment etc into consideration
Get the best cyl head you can possibly afford, the power will come easier
Or toss a 144/177 blower on it, headers tune and enjoy.
100hp honest hp is doable but you may sacrifice some manners to get there.
Take headers, carb/ign adjustment etc into consideration
Get the best cyl head you can possibly afford, the power will come easier
Or toss a 144/177 blower on it, headers tune and enjoy.
05-06-2016, 10:15 AM
#5
Safety Car
That makes sense, but as far as I've read, they don't use a complete top end kits, but build the engine using "separate" parts if you know what I mean. Moreover not all parts are identified so precisely that I could particularly find them online. I understand for many of you it might sound ridiculous, but as I know about engines very little, I don't want mistake by sorting the parts separately.
I've had a blower in my previous car and didn't like it a lot. I prefer decent top end instead. So this the main question which top end kit is the best bang per $?
I've had a blower in my previous car and didn't like it a lot. I prefer decent top end instead. So this the main question which top end kit is the best bang per $?
Honestly there is thread after threads on this topic on many different forums and if you just spend a few hours with google you will be a lot better off understanding and knowing what you need and why rather than just having someone basically spoonfeed you a "silver bullet best kit" you know nothing about...
As far as heads the preferred head of choice on this forum is the AFR with 64cc chambers I believe (Unless somethings changed someone will recommend these soon if I hadnt)
as far as intakes the performer RPM or one of its 1500rpm-6000 clones would be best but then you need a drop air cleaner to clear the hood.
a 670cfm holley carb is a great choice for that engine size and around 400hp. 750 would be better for drag racing/ top end.
A good STREET cam choice would be the comp or lunati 268 cam (Which is not the best choice for the motor if you plan on keeping stock gearing BTW for spirited street driving). A 262 cam will make the car more peppy on the street with power in the lower rpm range where you actually use it at the cost of a few HP on the top end and will shift your torque range down where it does more good.
Not to sound like im lecturing hear but YOU have to do some research to understand what many people in your shoes dont want to take the time to learn... That is, If you want to make a 350ci engine make $400+ HP it usually comes at a cost of less power and torque at lower rpm speeds meaning once your all said and done you could have an engine that makes 450hp at 6500rpm but but has much less power at the normal driving range rpms than your stock motor which was designed to have the power come in at the lower rpm speeds to make it more toquey and fun to drive on the street.
A lot of people never pay attention to this and end up with high rpm, high HP gas gussling cars that cant even get out of their own way at a stoplight because they are trying to use this engine in a car with stock 3.08 gears in the rear... or worse.. they have the rear gears changed out and get the power back but then realize the engine is revving at 2500 -3000rpm just to cruise around town and it feels like its stuck in low gear all the time... Then you need to spend even more money to buy a custom or OD transmission to make it enjoyable to drive on the street again... No problems if you have the time to wait and the $$. otherwise upgrading one thing just makes the next component in the combo stick out as more of an issue.
Im not trying to be a jerk here and maybe you know this already but I'm going to assume you dont.
I went through all of this learning process a few years ago when I knew very little about engines so I spent a year on the forums researching, taking advice from a few people here and watching youtube videos and acquiring parts which in the end lead me to build my own 375-400hp 355 from scratch for under $1,500 thanks mostly to craiglist and patience. I asked questions and rarely did someone ask if I had plans to drag race the car or use it as mainly a street cruiser and why it makes a difference.... I just figured more power is more power but the truth is if you want more power through your whole powerband and still have over 400hp with the lower end you have its going to sacrifice power where you notice it on the street at takeoff, you dished pistons are not ideal and will cost you power in this quest. I would aim for a solid 375hp and stick with the 262 cams which will give you more power below 3000rpm than the bigger cams at the cost of the top hp number which unless your racing the car you will likely never use. you say you had a blower in your last car but know very little about cars thats an unusual combination.. usually people with blowers in thier cars fall into one of a few catagories, motorhead, racer, or guy who likes the attention at carshows.. If you the last one I would just make it loud and sound mean with a choppy thumper cam and tell people it makes more hp than it does... Please do take this as me insulting you or anyone Im just throwing my 2 cents in about my experiences. I dont know you from Adam.
If you really are dead set about the car making at least 400hp and still being a blast to drive around town I would look into more CI like a 383 or changing your gearing with the 350 longblock you have or you may be disappointed with what you get in the end which will most likely be a compromise.
Stepping off soapbox now...
Last edited by augiedoggy; 05-06-2016 at 10:33 AM.
The following users liked this post:
widzia (05-06-2016)
05-06-2016, 11:59 AM
#6
so what your saying is you would rather find someone who takes the $1500 or so in parts and throws them together in a kit form to sell you at $2500-3k rather than taking the time to understand what you need? (thats your choice and nothing wrong with it if the money is not important to you but the knowledge will go a long way in your life and car ownership)
Honestly there is thread after threads on this topic on many different forums and if you just spend a few hours with google you will be a lot better off understanding and knowing what you need and why rather than just having someone basically spoonfeed you a "silver bullet best kit" you know nothing about...
As far as heads the preferred head of choice on this forum is the AFR with 64cc chambers I believe (Unless somethings changed someone will recommend these soon if I hadnt)
as far as intakes the performer RPM or one of its 1500rpm-6000 clones would be best but then you need a drop air cleaner to clear the hood.
a 670cfm holley carb is a great choice for that engine size and around 400hp. 750 would be better for drag racing/ top end.
A good STREET cam choice would be the comp or lunati 268 cam (Which is not the best choice for the motor if you plan on keeping stock gearing BTW for spirited street driving). A 262 cam will make the car more peppy on the street with power in the lower rpm range where you actually use it at the cost of a few HP on the top end and will shift your torque range down where it does more good.
Not to sound like im lecturing hear but YOU have to do some research to understand what many people in your shoes dont want to take the time to learn... That is, If you want to make a 350ci engine make $400+ HP it usually comes at a cost of less power and torque at lower rpm speeds meaning once your all said and done you could have an engine that makes 450hp at 6500rpm but but has much less power at the normal driving range rpms than your stock motor which was designed to have the power come in at the lower rpm speeds to make it more toquey and fun to drive on the street.
A lot of people never pay attention to this and end up with high rpm, high HP gas gussling cars that cant even get out of their own way at a stoplight because they are trying to use this engine in a car with stock 3.08 gears in the rear... or worse.. they have the rear gears changed out and get the power back but then realize the engine is revving at 2500 -3000rpm just to cruise around town and it feels like its stuck in low gear all the time... Then you need to spend even more money to buy a custom or OD transmission to make it enjoyable to drive on the street again... No problems if you have the time to wait and the $$. otherwise upgrading one thing just makes the next component in the combo stick out as more of an issue.
Im not trying to be a jerk here and maybe you know this already but I'm going to assume you dont.
I went through all of this learning process a few years ago when I knew very little about engines so I spent a year on the forums researching, taking advice from a few people here and watching youtube videos and acquiring parts which in the end lead me to build my own 375-400hp 355 from scratch for under $1,500 thanks mostly to craiglist and patience. I asked questions and rarely did someone ask if I had plans to drag race the car or use it as mainly a street cruiser and why it makes a difference.... I just figured more power is more power but the truth is if you want more power through your whole powerband and still have over 400hp with the lower end you have its going to sacrifice power where you notice it on the street at takeoff, you dished pistons are not ideal and will cost you power in this quest. I would aim for a solid 375hp and stick with the 262 cams which will give you more power below 3000rpm than the bigger cams at the cost of the top hp number which unless your racing the car you will likely never use. you say you had a blower in your last car but know very little about cars thats an unusual combination.. usually people with blowers in thier cars fall into one of a few catagories, motorhead, racer, or guy who likes the attention at carshows.. If you the last one I would just make it loud and sound mean with a choppy thumper cam and tell people it makes more hp than it does... Please do take this as me insulting you or anyone Im just throwing my 2 cents in about my experiences. I dont know you from Adam.
If you really are dead set about the car making at least 400hp and still being a blast to drive around town I would look into more CI like a 383 or changing your gearing with the 350 longblock you have or you may be disappointed with what you get in the end which will most likely be a compromise.
Stepping off soapbox now...
Honestly there is thread after threads on this topic on many different forums and if you just spend a few hours with google you will be a lot better off understanding and knowing what you need and why rather than just having someone basically spoonfeed you a "silver bullet best kit" you know nothing about...
As far as heads the preferred head of choice on this forum is the AFR with 64cc chambers I believe (Unless somethings changed someone will recommend these soon if I hadnt)
as far as intakes the performer RPM or one of its 1500rpm-6000 clones would be best but then you need a drop air cleaner to clear the hood.
a 670cfm holley carb is a great choice for that engine size and around 400hp. 750 would be better for drag racing/ top end.
A good STREET cam choice would be the comp or lunati 268 cam (Which is not the best choice for the motor if you plan on keeping stock gearing BTW for spirited street driving). A 262 cam will make the car more peppy on the street with power in the lower rpm range where you actually use it at the cost of a few HP on the top end and will shift your torque range down where it does more good.
Not to sound like im lecturing hear but YOU have to do some research to understand what many people in your shoes dont want to take the time to learn... That is, If you want to make a 350ci engine make $400+ HP it usually comes at a cost of less power and torque at lower rpm speeds meaning once your all said and done you could have an engine that makes 450hp at 6500rpm but but has much less power at the normal driving range rpms than your stock motor which was designed to have the power come in at the lower rpm speeds to make it more toquey and fun to drive on the street.
A lot of people never pay attention to this and end up with high rpm, high HP gas gussling cars that cant even get out of their own way at a stoplight because they are trying to use this engine in a car with stock 3.08 gears in the rear... or worse.. they have the rear gears changed out and get the power back but then realize the engine is revving at 2500 -3000rpm just to cruise around town and it feels like its stuck in low gear all the time... Then you need to spend even more money to buy a custom or OD transmission to make it enjoyable to drive on the street again... No problems if you have the time to wait and the $$. otherwise upgrading one thing just makes the next component in the combo stick out as more of an issue.
Im not trying to be a jerk here and maybe you know this already but I'm going to assume you dont.
I went through all of this learning process a few years ago when I knew very little about engines so I spent a year on the forums researching, taking advice from a few people here and watching youtube videos and acquiring parts which in the end lead me to build my own 375-400hp 355 from scratch for under $1,500 thanks mostly to craiglist and patience. I asked questions and rarely did someone ask if I had plans to drag race the car or use it as mainly a street cruiser and why it makes a difference.... I just figured more power is more power but the truth is if you want more power through your whole powerband and still have over 400hp with the lower end you have its going to sacrifice power where you notice it on the street at takeoff, you dished pistons are not ideal and will cost you power in this quest. I would aim for a solid 375hp and stick with the 262 cams which will give you more power below 3000rpm than the bigger cams at the cost of the top hp number which unless your racing the car you will likely never use. you say you had a blower in your last car but know very little about cars thats an unusual combination.. usually people with blowers in thier cars fall into one of a few catagories, motorhead, racer, or guy who likes the attention at carshows.. If you the last one I would just make it loud and sound mean with a choppy thumper cam and tell people it makes more hp than it does... Please do take this as me insulting you or anyone Im just throwing my 2 cents in about my experiences. I dont know you from Adam.
If you really are dead set about the car making at least 400hp and still being a blast to drive around town I would look into more CI like a 383 or changing your gearing with the 350 longblock you have or you may be disappointed with what you get in the end which will most likely be a compromise.
Stepping off soapbox now...
I agree with you, I need a decent power in low RPM range, so a 268 cam (Roller or Flat?) would be fine.
As for the heads, I could go for these http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...make/chevrolet, but doesn't these http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...make/chevrolet do the same job for less? (Just asking)
As far as I can see I would also need to buy:
- Rocker arms (1.6:1 or others?)
- Intake manifold (can you recommend any good to fit under Vette's hood with a decent air cleaner?)
- 650CMF Carb
Is there anything I missed?
As for the gear, at the moment I believe I have 3.08, but with Automatic tranny, but I am going for a Muncie M20 swap with a 3:54. Or should I go for milder gear?
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by widzia; 05-06-2016 at 12:30 PM.
05-06-2016, 12:10 PM
#7
Drifting
ProMaxx 185cc head
Hyd roller camshaft
1.5 Roller Rockers
AirGap Style intake
750HP or a 770 Avenger
Double roller timing set
ARP head Bolts
Intake and header gaskets
Combo will make 422HP and 417#/ft all day long.
Hyd roller camshaft
1.5 Roller Rockers
AirGap Style intake
750HP or a 770 Avenger
Double roller timing set
ARP head Bolts
Intake and header gaskets
Combo will make 422HP and 417#/ft all day long.
05-06-2016, 03:52 PM
#8
have you read the Super Chevy 8 part series on this topic
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/463...-engine-build/
the others can be found by googling "super chevy goodwrench build"
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/463...-engine-build/
the others can be found by googling "super chevy goodwrench build"
Jim
05-06-2016, 06:34 PM
#9
I am no expert in engines, but I know some stuff. Last year I had a 327 and I bought this kit. It is dynoed with a 383 and proves 500HP on that. You wont see the same on a 350 though, but you will get past 400 on the crank.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-k314-500-450
On a 327 I experienced a rough idle on this, and the cam was actually to big for me with my holley 750cfm carburetor (which was also to big), so below 2000 rpm I had some uneven pulls. But once I passed 2000rpm it kicked in so bad it was amazing.
I then put a Weiand 144 supercharger on it, and all that extra pressure and torque at the bottom end evened out the rough idling and rough pulls below 2000rpm. Which made it a real good daily driver with lots of power.
This winter I bought a Dart SHP block and made a 383stroker using this top-end kit, and the same weiand 144 blower. Now its just an insane beast. Throwing out wheel spin in second gear at 1200 rpm's
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-k314-500-450
On a 327 I experienced a rough idle on this, and the cam was actually to big for me with my holley 750cfm carburetor (which was also to big), so below 2000 rpm I had some uneven pulls. But once I passed 2000rpm it kicked in so bad it was amazing.
I then put a Weiand 144 supercharger on it, and all that extra pressure and torque at the bottom end evened out the rough idling and rough pulls below 2000rpm. Which made it a real good daily driver with lots of power.
This winter I bought a Dart SHP block and made a 383stroker using this top-end kit, and the same weiand 144 blower. Now its just an insane beast. Throwing out wheel spin in second gear at 1200 rpm's
05-06-2016, 09:23 PM
#10
Dr. Detroit
Member Since: Mar 2012
Location: New Braunfels Texas
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I agree to some degree with Straub.....
But I would use a 180 Dart Pro-1 Platinum.....
I want to go on a limb and tell you that it is difficult to screw up building a hot 350 if you keep the parts sane.....
There are a lot of heads out there these days.....I like the Dart...this forum is heavily AFR biased.....AFR are nice...but not a good value for the money...Brodix is the same way....nice stuff....but you pay for it (As a sidenote...Brodix does heli-coil all bosses for strength).....
Dart is the only one that uses 355-T6 aluminum.....it can take a little more abuse and is easier to repair.....but you may never get to that.
Dart heads are also wet-flow designed and simply rock out of the box....the flow number do not completely represent what they are.
Anyhoo.....a 180 head that flows 250+ @ .500 and a above mild HR cam will do wonders.....
As far as the intake.....all of the manufactures have a high rise dual plane that works well.....none of them shine above the other.
One can split hairs about whose stuff is better....I happen to like Dart as I worked close with them for years in my home state.....they are made there....and the support has always been top notch.
Go with your gut.....
Jebby
But I would use a 180 Dart Pro-1 Platinum.....
I want to go on a limb and tell you that it is difficult to screw up building a hot 350 if you keep the parts sane.....
There are a lot of heads out there these days.....I like the Dart...this forum is heavily AFR biased.....AFR are nice...but not a good value for the money...Brodix is the same way....nice stuff....but you pay for it (As a sidenote...Brodix does heli-coil all bosses for strength).....
Dart is the only one that uses 355-T6 aluminum.....it can take a little more abuse and is easier to repair.....but you may never get to that.
Dart heads are also wet-flow designed and simply rock out of the box....the flow number do not completely represent what they are.
Anyhoo.....a 180 head that flows 250+ @ .500 and a above mild HR cam will do wonders.....
As far as the intake.....all of the manufactures have a high rise dual plane that works well.....none of them shine above the other.
One can split hairs about whose stuff is better....I happen to like Dart as I worked close with them for years in my home state.....they are made there....and the support has always been top notch.
Go with your gut.....
Jebby
Last edited by Jebbysan; 05-06-2016 at 09:25 PM.
05-08-2016, 02:46 AM
#12
Thanks for your comments. Taking in to account recommendations I got, here is the list I made:
Dart pro 1 heads 11121112P (64/180/75)
Edelbrock 7501 Intake
Holley 4175 (0-9895) Carb
Lunati 20120710LK hyd. roller cam (262/270, Lift .507/.515)
Comp rocker arms 1605-16
Please let me know what do you think?
Dart pro 1 heads 11121112P (64/180/75)
Edelbrock 7501 Intake
Holley 4175 (0-9895) Carb
Lunati 20120710LK hyd. roller cam (262/270, Lift .507/.515)
Comp rocker arms 1605-16
Please let me know what do you think?
05-08-2016, 07:35 PM
#13
Drifting
Similar Build.
I did my homework and agree that if you do your homework, building a solid 350 is not Rocket Science.
355 w/TFS heads, 1.6RRs 218-224 HR, Air Gap, 650 Demon.
I have the craptastic 2" RH.
The less crappy 2.5 are in the box waiting.
I think they will get me to 300 rwhp
This engine runs on 32* very strong after 2200
At 3,000 rpm I have 300 rwtq.
Stomp the loud pedal and things happen real quick w/o downshift.
I would like to shoot for 12 sec 20 mpg w/4 sp.
I already get very close to 20 mpg @65
I want to weld in center section of AG for better low end.
315 rwtq
280 rwhp
355 w/TFS heads, 1.6RRs 218-224 HR, Air Gap, 650 Demon.
I have the craptastic 2" RH.
The less crappy 2.5 are in the box waiting.
I think they will get me to 300 rwhp
This engine runs on 32* very strong after 2200
At 3,000 rpm I have 300 rwtq.
Stomp the loud pedal and things happen real quick w/o downshift.
I would like to shoot for 12 sec 20 mpg w/4 sp.
I already get very close to 20 mpg @65
I want to weld in center section of AG for better low end.
315 rwtq
280 rwhp
12-10-2016, 07:10 PM
#14
3rd Gear
Member Since: Dec 2016
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I have the 350/290 with a Holley 650 and Edelbrock rpm Performer and full headers and 2.5" exhaust. I am okay with the power, but after adding the headers and exhaust (with H pipe) the engine sounds lazy and the exhaust "trumpets" when you stomp on it. I believe this is because the motor has suck low compression (8:1 I think).
Also, I have the 700r4 overdrive transmission, so I am at 2100 rpm at 75mph.
i have read that the 350/290 has a beefy cam for the motor. Has anyone tried simply swapping the heads for higher compression heads and keeping the cam? That should raise the compression and make my motor sound better.
i just cannot see throwing $3k in a top end kit. For that much money, I would swap to a 383.
Also, some people say that bumping the HP too high like 400hp would cause issues with my stall converter. To be honest, I do not understand that.
Any advise is appreciated.
Also, I have the 700r4 overdrive transmission, so I am at 2100 rpm at 75mph.
i have read that the 350/290 has a beefy cam for the motor. Has anyone tried simply swapping the heads for higher compression heads and keeping the cam? That should raise the compression and make my motor sound better.
i just cannot see throwing $3k in a top end kit. For that much money, I would swap to a 383.
Also, some people say that bumping the HP too high like 400hp would cause issues with my stall converter. To be honest, I do not understand that.
Any advise is appreciated.
12-10-2016, 07:39 PM
#15
Drifting
For yours^ I would say go with some 64cc heads and 1.6 roller(or roller tip) rockers and you will feel a difference.
12-10-2016, 07:50 PM
#16
3rd Gear
Member Since: Dec 2016
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I am so vain... I do not care much for the power increase, I just want it to sound better
But you can never have too much power!
I was looking at these awhile back... http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...14002/10002/-1
But you can never have too much power!
I was looking at these awhile back... http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...14002/10002/-1
12-10-2016, 09:36 PM
#17
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '05
Poster who asked about using his wish list with a Muncie and 3.54 gear it will work good. 308 gears with a 350 suck, period unless its stock
Auggie summed it up pretty good theres no free lunch a good plan is done from carb to tailpipe before any money is spent.
Auggie summed it up pretty good theres no free lunch a good plan is done from carb to tailpipe before any money is spent.
12-10-2016, 09:42 PM
#18
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '05
Andrew agree. If you have to spend 3k sell what you have and build another motor & yes can sound a little lazy due to low compression
Youll find when compression/cam is right it will take on a completely different exh note especially when accelerating one thing that drives me nuts is not getting that "snap" through the exaust, it was lack of compression.
Tried those "low compression make xxx hp" builds we read so much about back in the 90s what a waste of time that was. Exh always sounded like a truck, too lol.
Youll find when compression/cam is right it will take on a completely different exh note especially when accelerating one thing that drives me nuts is not getting that "snap" through the exaust, it was lack of compression.
Tried those "low compression make xxx hp" builds we read so much about back in the 90s what a waste of time that was. Exh always sounded like a truck, too lol.
12-10-2016, 10:50 PM
#19
3rd Gear
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Andrew agree. If you have to spend 3k sell what you have and build another motor & yes can sound a little lazy due to low compression
Youll find when compression/cam is right it will take on a completely different exh note especially when accelerating one thing that drives me nuts is not getting that "snap" through the exaust, it was lack of compression.
Tried those "low compression make xxx hp" builds we read so much about back in the 90s what a waste of time that was. Exh always sounded like a truck, too lol.
Youll find when compression/cam is right it will take on a completely different exh note especially when accelerating one thing that drives me nuts is not getting that "snap" through the exaust, it was lack of compression.
Tried those "low compression make xxx hp" builds we read so much about back in the 90s what a waste of time that was. Exh always sounded like a truck, too lol.
So you think swapping to those heads and not messing with the cam will suffice? Like I said, the power is fine... I do not want a race car...