SpiritOf76

My state (NJ) no longer requires any inspection/emissions testing on vehicles over 20 years old. So I don't have to worry about that. I really just wanted to make sure that I can use that intake but still eliminate the EGR (as is often suggested here) without any negative repercussions. LOVE the wealth of info I'm getting from this thread! Thanks to all!!!

resdoggie

If that were true, then you'd never attain or even come close to 14.7:1 afr which is complete combustion of the fuel. Maybe under wot this is the case?

centuryoldracer

Just remember the rule that 1/3rd of the energy from a internal combustion engine goes into the radiator, 1/3rd actually moves the car, and 1/3rd goes out the tail pipe. That is why the catalytic converter was introduced to burn all the un burned gasses in the exhaust before it exits the tail pipe. Air introduced helps complete this burn with the added air, and oxygen that is in the air.
I think the Japanese have a Diesel engine that runs at like 90 rpm that is up to 50 percent efficient , but generally speaking it is 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.
I am not a proponent of EGR for the record, just stating what it's purpose is/was. Anytime you dilute the intake charge the power is going to be less.
The more fuel, and air you can pack into the combustion chamber, the more power it will make.

centuryoldracer

I have said for over 30 years now since the inception of smog checks in southern California that if the smog program was completely canned it would be a net positive to the environment. No more needless running of engines hundreds of millions of times per year for testing purposes, the extra work people have to perform each year to pay for compliance, the foot print of manufacturing all of the equipment for each car, and the manufacture of the test equipment, I could go on, and on, but with most things the government meddles in the result is a net negative.
I won't even get into the boost to the economy from the reduced cost to manufacture the cars, and hence the cheaper purchase price.

OldCarBum

Let's face the reality of air pumps and EGR. During the late '60's and early '70's all automobile manufactures were faced with new EPA and government standards for all automobiles sold in the USA. The manufactures did what they could with the technology they had at the time. I remember purchasing a new '70 Chevelle, SS, Cowl Induction, BB, bringing it home, removing the window sticker, smog pump, EGR, vacuum lines, hoses, slapping on a new intake, Holley's, dual points distributor, a set of Hookers and dual exhaust. The increased performance was awesome. Most automobiles manufactured from the early '70's through the late '80's were junk. They were boxy, poor performing, and lacked any style. Even the inability to use lead based products led to paint that would simply peal off your new car within 6 months. New technology incorporated into newer automobiles has led to amazing performance, and cleaner operating, high mileage powertrains. We old guys could only fantasize of owning a factory stock, 700 HP, 20+mpg automobile sitting on the showroom floor. Who really cares what the air pumps and EGR's do, weather they enhance or limit performance and the reasons they do. If you want to pull them, or keep them, do so. It's your build. Enjoy! .02 cents please!

SpiritOf76

Its just strange that I've read and been told things from all over the spectrum.... from "rip it off, it doesn't matter", to "Your engine won't run right without it and it'll cause engine damage".
Can it be taken off without consequences? Yes or no? Can't get a straight answer.

OldCarBum

I'll say this. I've modified numerous GM cars in my day. Most of those were equipped with air pumps and EGR's. I pulled them all. I never had a problem and the removal of them never caused any damage to any of the drivetrains. I built and raced drag boats for years using blocks and heads pulled from cars. The motors were stripped, rebuilt and not one ever had an air pump or EGR replaced. No damage to them either. The air pump and EGR on my '73, 454, TH400, was removed by the prior owner and there has been no issues running, temps, tuning, timing, or any other negative issues. Just removing the air pump and EGR will not give you any HP gain or drop you will ever feel. All the air pump does is pump air into the exhaust manifolds and the EGR re-emits gases into the system. Simply remove the air pump belt and run it around the block. Block off the EGR then do the same. Simple. My experience says, if you remove them it will cause you no issues and no problems. The nice thing is, if you do experience something negative, you can reinstall them.

centuryoldracer

For the record none of my old cars have EGR or air pumps.

OldCarBum

Go to a car show, look at all the modified engines running injection systems, tunnel rams, blowers etc. I bet you wont find one with an air pump or EGR installed.

Shark Racer

There's two reasons you won't find them in an engine built by an engine builder:
1. Most high performance builds have heads and intakes that don't support them. There’s a small handful of intakes that support them, and they’re all pretty much low-rise dual plane. If your goal is well past 400HP, you need to go to an intake and heads that don’t support the exhaust crossover.
Most of these are not built for street legality. EGR, AIR pumps and the rest are a waste of space, time and a risk to the integrity of the build.

I don’t think anyone would or is arguing that there are only upsides to these emissions components. At a minimum, they add weight. They also add potential for failures which will cause drivability problems (a coked-up EGR valve that sticks open - that's always a treat). EGR adds an exhaust crossover which heats up the intake, causes oil to bake onto the bottom of the intake.

jb78L-82

Yes you can take all of it off with no detrimental engine consequences to driveability and performance. As long as you have no emissions limitations in your state you are good to go. My 78 has had no EGR or AIR pump on the L-82 since 1985...ran better from the day these items were removed and no decrease in fuel mileage. On my 94 Mustang GT with the EGR disabled (fooled the computer so no check engine light), engine ping at moderate to full throttle immediately was eliminated, engine temp was reduced, and fuel mileage went UP! Mustang passed Nox emissions test easily without the EGR-BTW

For those of you that live in states with emissions *****, a simple go around for the gestapo police who might inspect your engine for a visual is to go to home depot, buy a sheet of flat aluminum roof flashing, remove said EGR, measure and cut aluminum flashing to sit between the intake and EGR valve, covering both ports..........reinstall EGR valve with the flashing between the intake and EGR. Done....EGR looks functional but vacuum to operate valve results in NO induction of unburned gas into the intake.

cardo0

Good discussion here. OK, so let's take this another step as if you're emissions laws require (California) an operable EGR but you have swapped to better heads that don't have the exhaust port drilled for EGR crossover. Or even your new performance intake doesn't have the EGR porting cast into it. What can you do?

Well there is an old company called Offenhauser that sells an functional EGR carb plate for both spread bore and square bore carbs. Depending on your smog technician you may or may not need a state referee to pass this but it's there if you need it. Offenhauser is an very old family owned performance company that no longer maintains a w/s - you call order through Jegs or Summit though.

A little more on a state referee here. Talking with a former CA licensee smog tech is that having your car inspected by the state referee is the last thing you want to try. The car better have everything smog related operating correctly!

As far as engine builders, they're concerned with performance and labor hours not emissions at all. Drilling into exhaust pipes or head ports and installing EGR plumbing would be more like a small garage/shop would do for hourly fees. And most those shop have a stall with a gas analyzer to get you in spec. Not trying to make a personal issue on this just that I spent a truckload on EGR emissions/fixes while in CA and trying to share some of that here for those that are interested.

Buy that intake yet?

jb78L-82

You referring to the EGR block off plate on the L-82 before the build?




Rebuilt Roller cammed AFR headed L-82 355 after:

Shark Racer

Until they apply a vacuum to the EGR valve or try to manually actuate the valve and the engine doesn't stumble - that's a fail.

ddawson

A long time ago I installed a GM ZZ3 into a 72 Camaro. The heads didn't have a crossover so I had a shop add a tube from the header to the intake. Passed SMOG with it but it was also 1997.

jb78L-82

Jeez...they really are *****....I can't believe that they actually check the valve itself??? If the car passes the emission test, why do they bother?

Just use the block off plate like on my picture above after the smog test with the EGR in place.....do they do random road checks like in Canada? On newer cars like my 94 mustang GT as long as no check engine light, you are good to go.

DUB

I have mixed views on this.

On one side..I have to observe and comply with federal law dealing with not tampering with emission equipment / systems. Because I am a business. I can not do that. The fines are WAY too stout!

On the other side....I have had engines that had the components that were removed by the owner of the car....and it was tuned and passed the HC and CO rather well....except for the questionable NOx reading. And the car failed.

And not saying that it will happen...but here in North Carolina....some time ago. they stopped doing emissions on the older cars....then they brought it back and so many people were running around with their heads cut off looking for the emissions equipment to have on the car again. Then... several years later....they stopped it again. SO...if I were any of you taking this stuff off...I would not throw it away.

Because not one member of this forum KNOWS what will happen tomorrow. One day you may hear that all cars nationwide will have to go to the state operated inspection stations. Because it may be the way that the 'system' wants to get the older cars that are still running.... off the road that have worse emissions than new cars. And with the number of cars that fit into this category...the 'voice' of those who own them will not be heard due to the number being so low that an outcry will be dismissed.

DUB

jb78L-82

I have both my EGR valve and all my AIR pump hardware including the OEM manifolds with the port fittings..........since 1985 when I took them off....

cardo0

No. I'm making a general recourse for those having modified their motor and are without any of the EGR hardware or even the casting in the intake. A EGR retrofit for those needing a complete EGR system. Not questioning you or yours.



3 years ago CA was doing stop and test on the roadside but not sure today. What came from that was even tougher regs as they found plenty of cars that very recently passed smog now failed on the roadside test. There was a thread on this forum within the past year but I can't recall the repercussions of new laws for later model OBD II cars. OBD I still had the sniff test and IIRC not much changed for those cars.

CA gets even meaner for street racing. If caught your car is towed and crushed no matter what the value. And that is a good chance for authorities (who ever they are at this point) to inspect for emissions devices - mostly the catalytic converter which is a federal offense to remove. Ya get caught street racing in CA and you lose hobby/transportation and may see some prison time too. This in the nation's largest metropolitan area with only 2 operating drag strips located at the distant edge of metro. Also the birthplace of NHRA, which was created by an LA police officer to keep kid's from street racing in the first place. Oh don't get me started!

Good night.

Shark Racer