VIN missing on '78 pace car engine block
#41
Instructor
Boy,a lot of smoke here! Friggen beautiful eng bay and surround. If ya didn't pay 30k for it,drive it and enjoy the fascination and compliments that come with owning a nice pace car. Hell,why not take it to a professional restorer and have the eng ID stamped...Hdal
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Bigchucker (02-23-2017)
#42
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '05
Its been wrenched on and detailed for sure lots of non stock fasteners going on no big deal though the motor doesnt care
Could still be a low mi car cleaned up thats not a bad thing fresher the better for you!
Replacement block isnt the end of the world they break;had a brand new trans case crack in half with 97 mi on it, stuff happens
Enjoy your car regardless
Could still be a low mi car cleaned up thats not a bad thing fresher the better for you!
Replacement block isnt the end of the world they break;had a brand new trans case crack in half with 97 mi on it, stuff happens
Enjoy your car regardless
Last edited by cv67; 02-23-2017 at 09:31 PM.
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Bigchucker (02-23-2017)
#44
Heel & Toe
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Hi Bc,
Thanks for posting the photos.
I agree that the engine compartment has a 'restored' look to it, not really an 'untouched' look.
I think someone with some Bowtie judging experience could likely take a look at things like the engine mounts, bell housing/transmission fasteners, and ancillary brackets and their fasteners, and get a pretty good sense of whether this engine has been out of this car or not.
Still an interesting puzzle though.
Regards,
Alan
Thanks for posting the photos.
I agree that the engine compartment has a 'restored' look to it, not really an 'untouched' look.
I think someone with some Bowtie judging experience could likely take a look at things like the engine mounts, bell housing/transmission fasteners, and ancillary brackets and their fasteners, and get a pretty good sense of whether this engine has been out of this car or not.
Still an interesting puzzle though.
Regards,
Alan
It was sold in a raffle at an Optimist club and was overly detailed. What makes you think it is restored?
#45
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Hi Bc,
It seems like you now want to get into a discussion of semantics. I don't wish to get involved in that.
I have been replying based on the following statement, the engine compartment photos, and my observations.
"The engine compartment is mint, every thing looks new and original as far as I can tell. It doesn't look like any nut or clamp has ever seen a wrench!"
I was trying to relay to you that from what I was seeing in the photos that statement may not be completely true.
The fact remains that the pad would typically be stamped….and it's not.
Regards,
Alan
It seems like you now want to get into a discussion of semantics. I don't wish to get involved in that.
I have been replying based on the following statement, the engine compartment photos, and my observations.
"The engine compartment is mint, every thing looks new and original as far as I can tell. It doesn't look like any nut or clamp has ever seen a wrench!"
I was trying to relay to you that from what I was seeing in the photos that statement may not be completely true.
The fact remains that the pad would typically be stamped….and it's not.
Regards,
Alan
#46
Melting Slicks
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Have you verified that the VIN identifies the car as a Pace Car replica? Does anything about the VIN tag look suspicious in any way.
From what I read, demand for the Pace Cars was so high and the price being paid so much above sticker that unscrupulous individuals (and even dealerships) made Pace Car forgeries some of which used brand new donors to be sold as new. I don't know how or if a missing engine block stamp would have played into this but strange things happen to our cars over the decades
I have to agree with others who mention that the engine compartment has the appearance of being worked on for the purpose of deception. You also need to get some good diagrams for the various vacuum operated systems as yours are certainly not hooked up properly.
You may also want to verify that your engine is truly the L82 variant. While it has the two most noticeable external features (finned aluminum valve covers and dual snorkel intake) they may be window dressing on a standard engine. Does your tachometer have "L82" on the dial? I'm not certain what other identifiers of an L82 can be found on a '78 without digging deeply into the engine. Perhaps the block stamp was one of them?
From what I read, demand for the Pace Cars was so high and the price being paid so much above sticker that unscrupulous individuals (and even dealerships) made Pace Car forgeries some of which used brand new donors to be sold as new. I don't know how or if a missing engine block stamp would have played into this but strange things happen to our cars over the decades
I have to agree with others who mention that the engine compartment has the appearance of being worked on for the purpose of deception. You also need to get some good diagrams for the various vacuum operated systems as yours are certainly not hooked up properly.
You may also want to verify that your engine is truly the L82 variant. While it has the two most noticeable external features (finned aluminum valve covers and dual snorkel intake) they may be window dressing on a standard engine. Does your tachometer have "L82" on the dial? I'm not certain what other identifiers of an L82 can be found on a '78 without digging deeply into the engine. Perhaps the block stamp was one of them?
#47
Safety Car
That's the mystery! A few observations:
How does the engine run? Looks like your vacuum hose routing are not correct. Wilcox has a nice schematic that shows the correct routing of those hoses! Gives the impression that robust work had taken place from intake manifold and up.
Take the air cleaner off and take a photo of the driver's side of the carb with GM number and date code. Should reconcile with broadcast code for an L82 M38 power team configuration.
:
- Engine compartment too clean and tidy!
- Master cylinder has been replaced
- Hoses toward left rear are too shiny
- The plastic check valve coming out of the EFE actuator hose...is an add-on item
- EGR vacuum hose routed through air cleaner is not correct...goes to EGR TVS switch!
- Likewise, air cleaner hoses from both snorkels route to carb port located at the lower rear of the carb
- Looks like the PVC 775 valve replaced
- The alloy items (A.I.R. pump, alternator) look painted/blasted but awful nice!
How does the engine run? Looks like your vacuum hose routing are not correct. Wilcox has a nice schematic that shows the correct routing of those hoses! Gives the impression that robust work had taken place from intake manifold and up.
Take the air cleaner off and take a photo of the driver's side of the carb with GM number and date code. Should reconcile with broadcast code for an L82 M38 power team configuration.
:
Last edited by hunt4cleanair; 02-24-2017 at 04:48 PM.
#48
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Carb picture shows correct carb, 17058228 and I believe correct date 0528, Feb 5, 78? Intake manifold is 458520 which is correct. a/c 1131078 which is correct. Alternator is 110249 which I'm not sure? Build sheet and door plate confirm L82 pace car date march 30, 1978. What I cant figure out is engine casting date code. As you can see it says 71? That does not make sense. The 71 is in middle of plate where the 2 digit day code should be...there is not 71 days in any month I know of? Engine casting number is 14016379, which again GM Heritage centre says will work for 1978 even though most books say 1979 and later.
#49
Safety Car
Intake manifold is 458520 which is correct. a/c 1131078 which is correct. Alternator is 110249 which I'm not sure? Build sheet and door plate confirm L82 pace car date march 30, 1978.
What I cant figure out is engine casting date code. As you can see it says 71? That does not make sense. The 71 is in middle of plate where the 2 digit day code should be...there is not 71 days in any month I know of? Engine casting number is 14016379, which again GM Heritage centre says will work for 1978 even though most books say 1979 and later.
Locations for the alphanumeric casting date codes for smallblocks and big blocks was somewhat standardized by 1970 but a few exceptions persisted. Date codes are cast on the passenger’s side of the block opposite the casting number at the top of the transmission bell housing mounting flange.
The alphanumeric date code for engine blocks uses a letter for the month (A=January), two digits for the day and a single digit for the year (8). For example, J 11 8 would indicate an engine block cast October 11, 1978 or even October 11, 1968! However, the casting number would indicate whether the block was used in a particular year. If this block is 3970010, we know the block was not available in 1968 (first used in 69) and therefore confirm a 1978 date coded block.
You wrote earlier:
Casting number is 14016379, which I've read is 1979 and later. However, I emailed GM Heritage Centre and they said that code could also be correct for 1978. They also said "odd" things happened at factory where markings are missing or in different spots. Everything is still unclear. Any other way to prove that is the correct block?
I would say, after going through the great work you have done to provide images and information, the block was replaced early in its life..perhaps under warranty. However, I can't explain the casting date code...however, the two digits of 71 in a Julian date code format without month or year would suggest a March 12 date code of 79...given a one-year block number. This is consistent with 79 Corvettes whose VIN sequence build dates began in June 79 in the 39,000 series.
My conclusion is this block was replaced in the Spring of 1979 under warranty given what has been presented above. We would have to find a 79 Corvette L82 M38 with a VIN sequence after 39,000 to confirm the date code as a modified Julian format. If its a one-year only...no need to know the month or year code I suppose...why they did that? More speculation. But consider they were projecting what some 53,000 units to be built in 79. So zone had to figure out how to get more blocks! This seems like a plausible explanation without the benefit of interviewing those engineers who were also working on the Bowling Green plant. Life had to be good for Chevrolet Corvette division.
Last edited by hunt4cleanair; 02-26-2017 at 04:56 AM.
#51
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Thanks Hunt4, for the extra thoughts on this subject. No "K" marking anywhere near casting numbers. Above the casting number on drivers side is GM and to left of that is "38" (under plug wire bracket). Also , in the attached picture you can see CFO and other markings near casting number. Nothing at all on passenger side except "71". No VIN number behind oil filter either. Also you can see distributor markings 8A10...is that Jan 10, 1978?
The other picture is a close up of engine pad, you can see the pale blue still there and it appears some "broach" marks running front to back and seems a little rough. Still not looking like it was machined to me?
I have original purchase documents and the car was delivered to dealer 1st week in April, 1978. It was assembled in St Louis. Build sheets only reference to engine as CMS which is correct for 1978 L82. You would think it would mentioned more about the engine block itself?
The other picture is a close up of engine pad, you can see the pale blue still there and it appears some "broach" marks running front to back and seems a little rough. Still not looking like it was machined to me?
I have original purchase documents and the car was delivered to dealer 1st week in April, 1978. It was assembled in St Louis. Build sheets only reference to engine as CMS which is correct for 1978 L82. You would think it would mentioned more about the engine block itself?
#52
Safety Car
Thanks Hunt4, for the extra thoughts on this subject. No "K" marking anywhere near casting numbers. Above the casting number on drivers side is GM and to left of that is "38" (under plug wire bracket). Also , in the attached picture you can see CFO and other markings near casting number. Nothing at all on passenger side except "71". No VIN number behind oil filter either. Also you can see distributor markings 8A10...is that Jan 10, 1978?
The other picture is a close up of engine pad, you can see the pale blue still there and it appears some "broach" marks running front to back and seems a little rough. Still not looking like it was machined to me?
I have original purchase documents and the car was delivered to dealer 1st week in April, 1978. It was assembled in St Louis. Build sheets only reference to engine as CMS which is correct for 1978 L82. You would think it would mentioned more about the engine block itself?
What's the last four digits of the VIN?
Quite an intriguing mystery here and appreciate your work to keep us informed as you dig around around that firewall.