kaiserbud

A few comments....

Say it is worth $100-130. If you have $50k in it - it WILL take $40k-60kplus to make it right. That is assuming all is accurate and documented.

Anytime you sell a car in a dirty (dusty) condition and have inadequate photos - it brings a concern.

Also - if it is such a good deal and the dealer is smart and in the buusiness, if it were me - I would offer the owner a price and run with it... The presentation on this car indeed needs help.

I pulled the photos up in photoshop and checked them out closely - the console is just thrown together. None of the dash pats seem to fit togerther.

Check the front wheels - they are straight, yet the steering wheel is clocked 90 degrees.

The luggage rack is hoakey for an L-88

Questions:


Why would removing the power brakes require filling the firewall?

What is the mileage - 56,000? - or 5600??? is it actual - because the ad says 1 mile. They never really say.

Tom73 - why are race cars worth more - do you mean by important race drivers?


[Modified by kaiserbud, 7:26 AM 5/6/2003]

Red69

The pictures shown are actually pictures of pictures... notice the grainy look to them... also, the lower RH two have florescent light reflections in them... (white blurry features)... :yesnod:

If it were real, would you leave the keys in it for 20 years :smash: :jester


[Modified by Red69, 11:30 PM 5/5/2003]

Rowdy Rat

Steve,

I keep hearing rumors that at least a large portion of the Chevrolet records have been found and that efforts are underway to organize and present it in a manner similar to what the Pontiac Historical Society has done (makes sense since the same person who set up PHS is supposedly heading this effort). The word I got was that we could see something as early as this fall... This from some well informed people who are usually on top of information like this.

Then again, I keep hearing information to the contrary as well... Also from some pretty well informed people. If JohnZ is following this thread, perhaps he might comment on this... I know that I mentioned it several months ago, but perhaps he has heard something since that discussion.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Same here Steve... Really looking forward to seeing you and your car again!

Regards,

Tom73

I was going the other way in that race cars go through engines so it would be very rare for a race car to have an original engine thus would not be as valuable. But there is a case to be made for a well documented race car to be very valuable, so one that ran at LeManns.

tom...

Budman68

Why is it offered as original and painted red? The description says it is Silver.
The radio delete looks like it is either another from another car or just laying there. Can you Photochop an L88 in a pic?

Rockn-Roll

I've been looking over the car and reading some info in my Illustrated Corvette Buyers Guide by Michael Antonick. Here's some info:

Factory L88 cars did not come with a heater...I don't see one in the pics. The engine DOES look like an L88 with stock covers and attachments

I don't think there was a luggage rack available for 68, it also has sports mirrors, and a power antenae...obviously it's been modified...perhaps when it was painted? But, keep in mind that IF the owner had one of the 20 L88 vettes then would he REALLY add all that non-original junk?

It's obviously a 68 from the pushbutton door lock as well as the ignition in the dash. There's also the tach showing 6200 as the start of the redline...don't know if that is significant, and can't see where the redline ends.

I also have a book called The Complete Corvete by Richard M. Langworth which says only 20 L88's were installed at the factory. There should have been an L88 emblem on the hood, but I don't see one there...I'm sure that whoever had painted it would have re-installed the emblem, but it also looks like all the chrome has been removed from the engine area...possibly thieves. The book also says that the L88 got NO SMOG equipment and came with an 850 Holley...can't see the carb due to the air cleaner though. At the time of the printing of the book (1987) it stated that only 3 L88 68's were known to exist...not sure what the count is today, but if it's over 20 then I'd figure someone miscounted somewhere.

There's also no notice about what the transmission is...obviously it's a 4-speed, but I believe the L88 only came with the M21 and not the M20...not sure if one of them had the M22 or not...I believe the LT1 in 69 got the M22 standard. As with others I'd have to see the tank paper.

All of this in mind I'd say it's a fake...sure, it's a 68, but HIGHLY doubt that it's a factory L88. The original owner would have KNOWN what they had, and any subsequent owners would have kept it in much better shape. The only curve I see is the loss of records...is this VIN one of the 20 L88's? If not then can it be authenticated so that it is recognized as an L88?

Paul Borowski

Mark, Stan may correct me on this, but I do believe that $1.79 Purolator filter was only a $1.19 option originally(was code L90).

All '68s regardless of engine options had smog(at least until Stan corrects me :lolg:)

Paul Borowski

[QUOTE]********* At the time of the printing of the book (1987) it stated that only 3 L88 68's were known to exist...not sure what the count is today***********

I would guess over 200 of the original 80 are out there today :lolg: :lolg: :lolg:

Rowdy Rat

Steve,

Mike Antonick is for the most part a mid year (1963-1967) guy... A pretty sharp one at that, but I think that he may have included some incorrect information. While it is true that buyers of 1967 L-88 Corvettes were also required to order RPO C-48 heater/defroster delete for credit, there was no such requirement for 1968-69... In fact, the heater was mandatory for all Corvettes beginning with the 1968 model year in order to comply with federal regulations requiring a functional defroster. I've also been fortunate to see a fair share of these L-88 cars up close... All of the 1968-69 cars that I observed have had heaters.

Currently available Chevrolet records indicate that 20 L-88s were produced for sale in 1967, 80 in 1968, and 116 in 1969. Are these numbers accurate? It's impossible to say... But for now, they're the best we've got. Regardless, they were pretty rare cars... Even back when they were new. As far as items like the luggage rack, mirrors, antenna, etc., items like that were added all the time. There was more of a tendancy to "personalize" one's car than there is today. I doubt that the owner(s) gave one thought back in the late 1960s as to what the car would be worth in stock form today. These items really don't surprise me at all... I've seen some pretty interesting things added to cars over the years.

Tachometer yellow lines for all three years of L-88 production began at 6200 rpm and had a red line beginning at 6500 rpm... Of course so did L-71s, L-89s, and ZL-1s so it really isn't of much help. Still, it is the correct tachometer as opposed to something else.

There was an L-88 label that was intended to be used in production during 1969... Perhaps 1968 as well, I'm not certain. I believe it may be listed in the AIM, but for whatever reason, it was never installed on a production car (although several of the parts vendors seem to carry it) and the standard "427" numerals were carried over from the regular big block hood to the ZL-2 hood. A similar label was planned for the 1970 LS-7 as well as one that was actually used on 1970-72 LT-1s.

As far as emissions equipment... 1967 L-88s used a pcv valve if I'm not mistaken. 1968-69 L-88s used the pcv valve as well as the A.I.R. system found on other Corvettes of those years. 1969 A.I.R. pumps used on L-88s differed from other Corvette smog pumps that year in that they retained the external pressure relief valve found on the 1968 pumps... At least through the majority of the 1969 model year.

First design L-88s (1967 through about April 1969) used a vacuum secondary Holley four barrel LIST# 4054... The second design engines used a Holley as well, but with dual accelerator pumps and mechanical secondaries. I believe that the Holley LIST# on that carburetor was 4296.

How many are left? I have quite a bit more than three in my survey... 16 1967s... Maybe 50 1968s... 85 or so 1969s.

The M-22 transmission was a mandatory option for 1967-68 L-88s. Chevrolet relaxed the restriction a bit in 1969 and offered a heavy duty version of the M-40 Turbohydramatic 400 automatic transmission in addition to the M-22.

Is it real? I don't know... Although like you Steve, I'm always skeptical when one of these cars "pops up" out of no where. As others have noted, the photos are lousy and the broker hasn't offered up much detailed information. Still, no way to tell for certain until you get a chance to see the car up close... Nothing beats a personal inspection for turning up information about a car's history.

Off topic, I like the photo of your '75 in your signature... The reflections cause a pretty cool visual effect.

Regards,


[Modified by Rowdy Rat, 5:33 PM 5/6/2003]

Rowdy Rat

Paul,

Advertise it as an NOS RPO L-90 filter (L-88 only) and put it on Ebay... You'll have bids over $1000 in no time! :)

Regards,

PRNDL

I just had to dump on this car one more time. Too many things to explain. It is a fake. Show me a matching #s (with vin derivative) M22 and I may have to revise my assessment (That would make it a GOOD fake! :lol: ). But, comeon! You have an antenna on a radio delete car? OK, radio was added... so why is the radio delete plate still there 35 years later? Where did they put the radio? Not in the glove compartment, I assure you! That engine (less the smog pump) was probably purchased over the counter. Could have been done a long long time ago. Clones were not invented in 1995. They were making them right from the get-go. Restoring an ancient clone does not make an original L88, although I can just see that happening in this case. Way too many questions and excuses for me. OK Stan, you go check her out! :lol: MJ

Robert N

Stan, what would it take to verify that this IS legit?

Paul Borowski

I really DO NOT even want to think about what will happen :eek: I mean 37(of the original 20) 1967 L-88s that has been Bloomington Gold Certified.....well let's just say this, plus the "hundreds" maybe of phony bigblock cars '65-'72 that may just not be a little original...well there is going to be a MOB of PO'd people like we have never seen before. Sometimes I think it best IF THE INFO NEVER surfaces :D I mean, what if anyone here would find out there pride and joy '67 435 Black roadster was originally a 327/300hp 3spd car---and your '65 "all original" 396/425hp car was just a 327/300hp DRUM BRAKE car!!!!!!!!!! This maybe the best thing for "new buyers", BUT for the poor people who own them now-God help them, THEY WILL BE PI55ED TO NO END. :rant:

SBR

Paul, while the release of the records will open a can of worms I personally would rather know the truth beyond a shadow of a doubt than a maybe anytime. Plus it will put an end to people getting robbed by shifty sellers JMHO.


[Modified by SBR, 8:34 PM 5/6/2003]

Paul Borowski

Yeah, I know but it will cause severe problems... I can see the headlines now...""Angry Corvette Buyer Kills Corvette Dealership Owner"".........Film at 11. I for one am glad I'll just be watching :lurk:

Robert N

Paul, that just brings us back to what I asked a few posts before. "How can you tell if this car it legit with certainty?"

I could not see 'taking a chance' with this car without documentation. The cost of guessing wrong could be staggering.

Rowdy Rat

MJ,

Hopefully, I didn't give the impression that I believe that this car is definitely an L-88. Not having seen it, I just don't know. I'm in agreement with most of those who have posted so far though... Lots of red flags that seem to be surfacing as you get into the details and that's not something that I would want to deal with as a potential buyer.

As far as checking it out... The only way I'll be doing that is if someone retains my services to do so. I personally don't think this is the car for me... Too many "issues" as one of my friends would say! :)

Robert,

To start off, I'd call the broker... Get the basic information on the car as far as casting/stamped numbers and such... What has been presented in the Ebay listing is rediculously incomplete. Find out what documentation available. If any history has been researched, the contact points for previous owners. Simply put, the basics.

If what I heard convinced me that all was as advertised, I would want to make a closer inspection of the car... There are several items that could be checked in a matter of minutes that would probably determine if it was originally an L-88 or not. I'd want to see what paper documentation was available and how it compared to known original records. If what I saw led me to believe that it could be real, I'd start checking into the ownership history of the car... This is where you can turn up some good information on a car, things like how it was ordered, what was replaced, old photos, etc. This car is most likely not going anywhere soon so you have a little bit of time to do some research.

That's how I'd approach it anyway...

Regards,

Robert N

Stan,

Thanks. While the car is probably going to wind up out of my budget, I intend to do some research anyway. Who knows.

Mr.Gearhead

OKAY... I gotta jump in on this one. Is it real? Is it fake? Honestly, does it matter? IT IS A CAR.... I LOVE MY CORVETTE..... but damn.... dropping that much cash on a basket case ... more brains than sense. I can appreciate the history of Corvettes... I have every book out there and read them twice.... BUT IT IS A CAR. Are we talking investment? I can lead you to more sound investments than this.... and I am not a broker. Are we talking history? FOR $40K AND A FULL RESTORE... Sorry guys... I AM A GEARHEAD and I love my Corvette.... but I am not following the thunder on this thread..???? $40K gets you a fairly new Z06 that will put this thing to DEATH..... QUICKLY! :confused: :confused:

Paul Borowski

Yeah, but car for car, IF the '68 was a TRUE L-88, and it was restored, and I had my choice between that OR the Z06(or even three of 'em :lolg: ), I'll take the '68 L-88, thank you.