The Money Pit

After what seems like a lifetime,I got the trans in ,and 3" exhaust done.All that's left is to hook up the TCI trans temp gauge,and road test the car.I did gently drive it to and from the Midas shop for the exhaust,and as I mentioned before the shifts are delayed,but firm as compared to the TH350 I took out.
Just wondering what kind of range of adjustment I should expect when fiddling with the TV adjustment. I have the BTO TV EZ setup and the pressure gauge is still connected to the transmission.
BTW when I left Midas,I pulled out onto a fairly busy road and stabbed the gas just a bit. When I hit second gear the rear end kicked out a few inches,no tire chirp,but I wasn't even on the throttle that hard.A friend at work has placed a gentlemens bet I'll be needing a new rear by the end of August.
Hope he loses! :cheers:

UKPaul

This is how to do the 200-4r so I guess yours will be the same.
Engine must be running at correct idle speed & both it & the trans should be at normal operating temperature. Unlock the TV cable adjuster & slide the adjuster forwards while watching the pressure gage. At some point the pressure will read constant , no matter how far you move the adjuster. This is the minimum pressure. Then slide the adjuster backwards until the pressure just starts to rise. Lock the adjuster at this point. The pressure should be about 2psi higher than the minimum reading you got.
Once that's done, check that the pressure rises immediately the throttle is opened slightly, or the TV cable is pulled slightly. All you need is for the pressure to start rising as soon as the throttle starts to open. Verify that you can get the throttle to WOT ie. the TV cable isn't preventing the throttle from fully opening.
Of course, before doing all this,verify that the throttle is fully open with the pedal at WOT (mine wasn't & apparently it's quite a common problem).
:cheers:


[Modified by UKPaul, 10:27 AM 6/12/2003]

gkull

UKPaul - gave a good description of setting it with a pressure gauge. I actually go one step further. At wide open throttle from someone in the driver seat pushing the petal. I tighten the TV cable to the point where it is fully tensioned at perpendicular throttle blades.

My reasoning is trannies cost lots more than U-joints and tires. When 700's are brand new they also shift alot harder. I hated how mine originally banged gears. Within a month or so it mellowed out.

Fevre

My Formula has solid motor mounts and I had to adj it down bit since it would snap you kneck at anything over idle speed when shifter. I need to get a pressure gauge and follow Paul's instructions, don't want to blow the tranny.

page62

Paul's description is correct. It's MUCH more important to have increased pressure off-idle than it is to have the cable fully extended at WOT!

UKPaul

Ah, Page, I was wondering where you were (under the hood of some old 'stang I expect :lol: ).
The TV Made EZ kit should set the geometry up correctly so that at WOT the valve in the tranny is in the correct position (but it's worth checking for peace of mind... get somebody to hold the pedal at WOT, check that the carb is at WOT & then pull the TV cable to check that it's fully extended). As Page said, it's crucial to get the pressure rising as soon as the throttle moves as, if not, that is when your expensive new tranny will start wearing out quickly.
The shift firmness can be altered by where you position the TV cable connection in the slot. I think it works that the lowest position gives the harshest shifts. Mine is about mid way & the shifts are firm but not neck snapping. If you do move the cable position then you've got to ensure that the cable lies parallel to the carb base afterwards (otherwise the geometry will be all wrong), & also check the pressures again.
I found the hardest thing about setting it up was fitting/removing the pressure gage!!!
:cheers:

Fevre

Got no carb on the Formula. :)

mrvette

page62, if you think about the operation of a 700r4 ayway, and what you just said, if you don't have fully extended cable at WOT, you maybe fully extended before that, and therefore never actually acheive WOT....

I just do what most tranny guys do...pull the cable shroud back pretty far, then at the throttle body, open it forcefully all the way....that pulls the shroud back through the clamp/adjuster/ratchet thingy...and then the cable is as sensitive as it can be....metering out increased line pressure as soon as throttle is opened...now I"m talking of a stock set up here, I dunno about aftermarket, but the theory would be the same...doing it my way there, the kickdown cable is allways under a slight tension...and ready to move that valve in a instant....

jGENE

The Money Pit

So does this look like the lowest position on the TV cam?

Jvette73

I see by the pic that you have the GM design ratchet type cable adjuster. Try this, push and hold the lock tab in and move the housing all the way back towards the firewall. Then get in the car and floor the throttle. Now yur at a good starting point. Take the car for a test drive. Pull slowly away from a complete stop, and just when you feel the trans shift to second, punch it. It should kick down to first. If it does than its tight enough. If it doesnt than its too loose. Now you can possibly lower the part throttle shift points by adjusting some more. But first verify that it will kick down to 1st like I described above. There is relitivly little room for different adjustments but there is some. To make it shift sooner, push the tab in and move the cable housing out one click away from the firewall. Only go one click at a time. Then test drive again and repeat the above procedure to make sure it will still kick down from 2nd to 1st. if it still does then yur still ok. You can keep moving it out one click at a time untill the point where it will no longer kick down. when you find that point, you've gone a tad too far, so move it back in one click so it will still kick down. Thats as loose as you can go and still be safe.

dman535

I used a specially made piece for TV conversions. This allows me to get more tv off idle, without stretching or damaging the tv cable or valve when I go to WOT. I also used a geometry correction plate from the same mcompany, this alters the arc of travel to give a bit more travel at the initial throttle opening. The bracket is just a Holley pro-jection tv cable/throttle bracket that I modified to fit my Demon. The whole setup here can be had for under $50.

I don't really care for the BTO system. I think its a little but over engineering and it does not have any provisions for a throttle cable. Just my .02 cents worth.

UKPaul

With the stock setup then Gene's description is the way to do it. BUT only if the throttle pedal fully opens the throttle. If it doesn't then the tranny will never achieve the WOT position because the carb doesn't.
The problems occur with custom setups. After setting the TV cable up to cause instant pressure increase the moment the throttle starts to open, then you really need to verify that the TV cable is at the WOT position when the carb is as WOT. I did this by getting somebody to hold the pedal to the floor & then very slightly let it up. By pulling on the TV cable with a set of grips you can judge whether it's actually getting to the WOT position when it should.
The Money Pit,
That looks like the lowest position to me but the cable looks like it angles downwards. With my setup I had to move the bracket that holds the TV cable adjuster up or down so that the cable ran parallel(ish) with the base of the carb. If it didn't then the geometry was all wrong and once I'd set the cable with the pressure gage at idle, it would get to WOT to early or not at all, as pointed out in the above posts. It can get fiddly trying to get it right, but once you've got it set up so that the pressure is about 2psi above the lowest reading when at idle & the TV cable reaches it's WOT position when the carb does (using the throttle pedal to get WOT) then it'll be OK. Reading all the gumf on the Bowtie website about the problems that will occur if you get the TV cable set wrong is a bit scary (it involves lots of $$$'s in repairs!). It also says that you can get the TV cable adjustment wrong but the tranny will feel like it's set up OK, resulting in a dramatically decreased transmission life.
:cheers:

The Money Pit

Been getting a lot of people mentioning the cable must be parallel to the carb base.The TV bracket,cable,and transmission were all supplied by BowTie Overdrive,and I don't see how it would be possible to have the TV cable parallel with their setup.When I called in my pressure readings the BowTie techs said they were fine,but gave me a huge ration of crap because I didn't have a temp gauge,and had not run my trans cooling through the radiator.
I've since installed a TCI gauge and will have the car on the road by Monday.

The main reason I posted was to try to shortcut some of the adjust it drive it see how it shifts,repeat same sequence all day,only to arrive at the original setting which was recommended as a starting point.

UKPaul

The TV kit I got from Bowtie included a few spacer plates that fitted under their cable mounting bracket. I tried fiddling about with various settings & with the cable running well off of parallel it was obvious that the TV cable would reach WOT before the carb, or not at all (after the carb did). It doesn't have to be exactly parallel, close enough seemed OK on mine.
I ran my fluid through the rad & ran a temp gauge, which was worth having. My radiator was re-cored about 1000miles ago & they assure me that they do both sides of it as part of the refurb. What I found was that the fluid temp was fine in OD but crawling along in heavy traffic in the low gears the fluid temp started rapidly climbing. A lot. In fact it started going up so high that I pulled over & shut the engine down for a while to let it cool down. I've since fitted a transmission cooler (plumbed in before the rad so the fluid goes through the cooler then the rad) & the temps are now what Bowtie recommend. I was a bit surprised that the temps got so high (this is England, not Arizona!) but the Bowtie techs said that it's a common problem with C3's :( It might be worth you getting a cooler in time for Monday, just a small B&M one sorted mine out.
:cheers:


[Modified by UKPaul, 9:19 AM 6/13/2003]

The Money Pit

I already have a 10X15 trans cooler mounted to the front of my Griffin radiator,with a 16" Permicool fan mounted directly oposite the cooler.Still BTO has a problem with the fact my trans lines don't actually go through the stock radiator.Go figure.

Fevre

How came before the rad? Seems it would work better the cool the fluid to the rad temp then cool it some more after. Or is it better the make sure it is at least as warm as your coolant? I am thinking of installing a trans temp gauge in my Formula and was wonder which routing would be better if I decide the temp is too hot.

Thanks


[Modified by Fevre, 10:07 AM 6/13/2003]

UKPaul

Fevre,
I've seen both possibilities recommended :confused: So I sat down & had a think about it & came up with the way that I did it (which means that it's probably completely wrong :lol: ).
I figured that the transmission was designed to operate at a certain temperature (150* is the Bowtie preferred temp). What I saw without the tranny cooler was that at highway speeds the transmission fluid was about 30* cooler than the engine coolant. So if I routed the fluid through the rad (cooling it to 150* at highway speeds) & then into a transmission cooler, then I could be cooling it too much. I figured that routing it through the cooler & then through the rad would keep it at a more constant temp & also aid in a quick warm up on cold mornings. I wouldn't wager anything on the idea (apart from my new transmission :eek: ), but based on my understanding of the ideal operating temperature ranges of engine oils, it made more sense to me. I expect transmission fluid is a whole new kettle of fish out of water compared to engine oil, but if the transmissions were designed to be run at cool temperatures then GM would fit massive transmission coolers as standard. As they don't, but cool/warm the fluid in the rad, then logically I should remove the excess heat caused by an OD transmission & 2200 stall converter with a transmission cooler & then pass the fluid to the rad to get it's temp as close to what GM designed it to be.
I hope I've got that right as it's a real PITA to get to those cooler pipes to swap them round! Maybe Bowtie gave The Money Pit some grief because they thought he could be over/under cooling the fluid??????
Hopefully somebody will chime in & tell me if I'm right, or completely wrong.
:cheers:

Fevre

Thaks Paul

Seems someone had mention before that the trans fluid can be too cool so sounds like your are on the money. :thumbs:

mrvette

You know, guys, the more I think about this, I wonder if....getting a stop onto the cable so it only retracts so far when throttle is closed....making it a higher pressure than normal even at idle....and then putting say a stiff enough spring in line with the cable end, so that when WOT is acheived, the spring will stretch/compress to allow the wot position AFTER the tranny is at mas travel....and then see what happens....I an severely disappointed in the shifts with my 700, and wonder if doing that would damage something...I can't see it would, as the shifts would be harder than normal, not softer....

GENE

The Money Pit

Seems to me the length of the pull would be controlled by the cam the pulling end of the cable is fastened to.This is a fixed arc,attached to the throttle arm of the carb in a predetermined fixed location.Unless they did not do their homework the WOT of both carb and TV should be in synch,ast well as the preload of the TV valve when the carb's at it's idle position.Could it be the cam can alter the rate of the TV movement,but have no effect on the length of travel,and by that control the pressure rise/shift points?
The TV cable mount on mine was a plate that fits under the carb and has no way to adjust anything.