Rowdy Rat

Considering all the bench racing that has been done on this subject, I'm surprised that nobody has made mention of the article that appeared in one of the recent Corvette magazines (Corvette Enthusiast perhaps?) detailing the 1969 L-88 that ran at the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race.

The Corvette was paired head to head with a 1969 ZL-1 Camaro (this particular ZL-1 actually started out as a real life COPO 9561 L-72 car, but the engine was basically the only difference between the COPO 9560 and COPO 9561 so for all practical purposes, it was indicative of a real ZL-1). Pete Simpson is a pretty sharp driver and managed to win two out of three races with the Camaro, but the Corvette was turning much better times and trap speeds... Typically 12.0s in the 118 mph range. This particular L-88 Corvette also has the distinction of being the first car at this event to turn a sub 12 second time at 11.99 at 119mph.

That's 11.99 at 119 mph on reproduction nylon belted tires with a full factory exhaust... Pretty darn impressive even by today's standards.

I know that as a general rule for this event, the cars are checked for correct castings (blocks, heads, intakes, etc.) and must use all stock equipment inside and out. Exhaust is allowed to be 2½" regardless of original size (which really helps the 1969 Corvette with it's 2" factory exhaust.) and must also use a factory size street tire (no drag radials or soft compound tires). There is also a more stringent catagory refered to as "certified stock" where the engine is partially disassembled to verify factory parts and clearances. I know that the Camaro has gone through this procedure... If I had to guess, I'd say that the Corvette has not.

Still, a very impressive showing by both cars.

Regards,

Chuck Harmon

Thanks for posting! I would love to see the article. That would have been a great race series to have watched.

Chuck

corvtt1969

umph...thats awesome! what about a l-36?? probably getting one soon. i wonder how a l-88 with factory side exhaust would do?? :eek:

LT1driver

factory side exhaust would slow car down as inside of side pipes is much smaller than 2.5, also the standard exhaust on all big blocks and hi po small blocks was 2.5 inches, not 2". :cheers:

corvtt1969

are you serious??? thats discouraging cause im looking to buy a l36 with stock side exhaust :(

Corey_68

Factory side exhaust AWESOME, but kills hp on built motors.
The L36 also uses oval port heads which is great for gobs of torque but looses it's pulls past 6,000rpms.

:cheers:

Solid LT1

The L88 Vette will beat any passenger car until they cry and get them banned from competition. The rear trailing arms are like a traction bar and will out hook any leaf or stock location coil spring car presenly being used. The question is: will they let the Vette use the ZL-1 engine? ZL-1 Vette=world beater! The other combination no one is looking at is a 1970 370HP LT-1 roadster that should be competitive with that W-31 Cutlass. My freind in college had a 69 W-31 with 4.33 gears that would go DEEP into the 13's with factory equipment, the under the bumper ram-air scoops really worked! but, broke on driveway entry (he had 2 sets of N.O.S. spares in 1977, some of the last ones in Oldsmobile inventory.) We made good money street racing the 360HP LT-1 Z28'S in our time (like shooting fish in a barrel!)


[Modified by Solid LT1, 9:29 PM 4/5/2004]

Rowdy Rat

Chuck,

You're welcome!

I'm not a computer guru by any stretch of the imagination, but I'll see what I can do about posting a copy of the article in the next couple days (the article was in Corvette Enthusiast by the way).

I keep saying that I'll make a trip to at least watch the PSMCDR event one of these days... People who have attended have told me it is a really neat event.

Robert,

Good for you... Good luck with picking up that L-36!

An L-36 should be good for mid 13 second times in stock form... Probably even a bit quicker with some tweaking and a good driver. The L-36 was designed more as a performance oriented utility engine, but it could get the job done when asked.

LT1driver,

Side exhaust would pretty much be a wash on a 1969 Corvette. I would agree that there is certainly no performance advantage to be had running them although from a resale standpoint, a factory equipped side exhaust car commands a pretty healthy premium.

For 1969, all Corvettes, be it small block or big block, were equipped with a 2" exhaust system from the factory. Really strange considering that big blocks in 1968 as well as big blocks and LT-1s in 1970-1972 used a 2½" system. Cost is always presented as a theory, but in the big picture, it doesn't make sense considering GM used the larger diameter system the year prior and the year after.

Eric,

Corvettes definitely have a traction advantage on street tires although I feel it's more a result of the independent rear suspension not allowing the tires to hit as hard when power is applied. A solid axle car with a good set of slicks is a better choice for serious racing, but in this case, the rules don't allow it (which plays to the Corvette's advantage).

Yes, they will... In fact one of the event participants who currently runs a 1969 Yenko Camaro (basically a factory COPO 9561/9737 car) was on this forum about a year ago asking for some feedback on that exact combination. My personal opinion is that a second design L-88 is basically the same engine (less the aluminum block) and should perform better in a drag race setting even though it is a few pounds heavier.

I would agree completely... As far as stock small blocks go, a well set up and driven 1970 LT-1 Corvette should pretty much dominate any other small block (and most of the big blocks) at this event. Pete Simpson, the driver of the ZL-1 Camaro ran low 13s in his 1970 LT-1 Nova on reproduction bias ply tires (high 12s on drag radials if I rember correctly)... A 1970 Corvette should do at least as well and probably better.

Eric... Maybe an opportunity for you there? ;)

Regards,

DJ Dep

A quote from a true smallblock owner with no clue :D
The times for the L-88 are easily beaten by the 1969 Yenko SC-Nova (high 10's with slicks). Sorry Charlie....the L-88 is NOT the ultimate killer 1/4 mile car. Fast, yes. But not FASTEST.

Dep

Robert N

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would agree completely... As far as stock small blocks go, a well set up and driven 1970 LT-1 Corvette should pretty much dominate any other small block (and most of the big blocks) at this event. Pete Simpson, the driver of the ZL-1 Camaro ran low 13s in his 1970 LT-1 Nova on reproduction bias ply tires (high 12s on drag radials if I rember correctly)... A 1970 Corvette should do at least as well and probably better.


Exactly the route I intend to take!! The goal is to keep the car as close to stock appearance as possible.

Rottenrob

I just read that article last night. If I'm not mistaken the L88 corvette -after it's intial sub 12 run was indeed partially torn down, inspected and found to be stock. Also the l88 owner was talking about how there was 100lbs of lead in the frame that could still be removed for even greater speed, something about the cars prior life as a racer... :confused: In any case, that article was a cool read.
:cheers:

Rowdy Rat

Michael,

The Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race (http://www.geocities.com/psmcdr/) that has become an annual event at the Mid Michigan Motorplex in September limits entry to:

"...1955 to 1974 muscle cars built in United States and Canadian assembly plants with a minimum warranty of 12 months and 12,000 miles. Factory lightweight cars built for sanctioned drag racing and dealership-built/modified cars are not eligible to participate."

The 1969 Yenko Camaro, 1969 Yenko Chevelle, and 1970 Yenko Deuce (Nova) are allowed to run at the event because they are essentially factory built cars with the exception of the Yenko graphics. Yenko's 1967 and 1968 Camaros as well as the 1969 Nova were all engine transplant cars and as such fall into that "dealership built" category and are not considered stock (and therefore not allowed to run).

As far as factory built cars go, the L-88s are going to be the car to beat at this event.

Rob,

If I'm not mistaken, they did a P&G to check displacement... That was it. The general inspection checks those casting numbers and parts which are easily seen and is done to all entries. The certified stock category is an actual tear down of the top end prior to the race and the engine is reassembled and sealed by the inspection team. Again going from memory, but I don't recall the article mentioning this procedure being done to the Corvette (I know it has been done to the ZL-1 Camaro).

Imagine that... An L-88 Corvette used as a race car... Who would have guessed? :D

I agree! After all the "what ifs" we go through in this forum, it's nice to see someone go out and do it for real.

Regards,

corvtt1969

im confused about the lead in the frame and how it relates to the car previously being a race car? :confused: :confused: :(

DJ Dep

Stan: I understand what you are saying about that style of racing. My comment wasn't really aimed at what you are referring to though. I was commenting on the post "The L88 Vette will beat any passenger car until they cry and get them banned from competition."
It says nothing in that post about the L88 competing in that class of competition. It's a flat statement that the L88 will beat ANY passenger car.
The SC Nova fits in that "any passenger car" class.

It's a shame that they don't allow the REALLY fast muscle cars to compete there. The Yenko SC Nova as well as the Baldwin Motion Nova and Nickey Nova would pretty much clean the clocks of any other of the competition.
And by placing the restrictions as they do, it pretty much eliminates any REAL competition in that class. Max 3 wedges from the early 60's, Ford 427 medium and high riser 66-67 Fairlanes, all would be forbidden in that selective class. Not much of a true competition as far as I'm concerned. You COULD buy those cars if you had the cash and knew a dealer that was cooperative. There are still plenty of them cleaning up at the dragstrip.
Technically, the Vettes shouldn't be allowed in that class either, since they aren't really classified as "muscle cars", but rather "sports cars". Remember...."America's only sports car".

And better pray no owner owner of a 427 Cobra shows up, or the Vettes will be reminded once again of the term "SNAKE BIT". :D

Dep


[Modified by DJ Dep, 7:34 AM 4/7/2004]

Chuck Harmon

Dep,

A Nova doesn't have any advantage over a Camaro in weight, so why would a Nova be expected to give a better showing against than the L88 Vette? The Nova doesn't have the 50/50 weight distribution of the L88. The Nova being light in the tail would'nt hook up as well. As far as racing against a 427 Cobra, I posted a complete article a couple years ago between such a matchup. Both cars were stock. The driver of the L88 wasn't as consistant, but the 69 L88 made the fastest time. Both cars were allowed to run the same brand and size of slicks.

Chuck

Solid LT1

I am going to disagree with you on your Nova pick. I helped a friend of mine destroy a rare muscle car in the mid 1970's. The car we destroyed was a factory L89 (aluminum head) SS396 69 Nova. We got the car deep into the 10 second bracket after adding a tunnel ram and 660 center squirter Holleys on what was a factory stock short block with a BIG Isky cam. The car ran these times on 15X9X29" Goodyear slicks with tons of work done to the rear suspension to help the car get hoked up. We ended up "floating" the rear end housing and using a 3 link ladder bar set-up to get the car into the 10's. The car went from a street racer to strip only car and when still in street-strip dutuies would never break into the 12 second bracket until Lakewood "slapper" bars were added (with "J" bolts, wedges and biased snubbers to get the car to go straight down the strip, it was a lot of work!) I am somewhat familiar with the factory stock muscle car class and know they are not allowed any additional traction devices. There is so far you can go with changing the leaf springs and biasing the leafs towards the front of the rear end housing to act as a traction link. I spent my entire youth at Fremont Drag Strip and working at a local auto parts store during the 70's and believe I probably have more "real world" expirience at racing cars than you do! I presently own a low 12 second 1972 LT-1 coupe that is mainly an autocross car but, also still street driven. My Vette has stock suspension, I unhook the front sway bar when I drag race it no other changes ecept for slicks. The Camaro and Nova chassis leave plenty to be desired in terms of traction compared with a Vette! Because of the rules: racing the Vette will have the upper hand, it's just plain physics of a live axel vs a independant one. The IRS will outpreform any solid axel car with no traction devices allowed, the Vettes trailing arms are it's traction bars where the Nova, Camaro, Mopars, and GM "A" bodies (because of the improper arrangment of the locating links of their 4 link) are all at a disadvantage to the Vette. The only car that would come near the Vette would be the 68-9 390 AMX because of it's upper traction links but, then you would have to deal with a NASH motor and again be at a disadvantage.

DJ Dep

Chuck: I can only report the facts. The Yenko SC-Nova was in the 10s without much difficulty. According to Don Yenko it was "a beast, almost lethal, a car that they should not have produced; as they were skirting the edge of product liability when they built this car". So scarey that they quit making them after only a short production run (37 or so according to the numbers available). They were worried about possible lawsuits from nitwits that couldn't handle the power. And the 1969 Nova weighed LESS than the Camaro OR Chevelle OR Vette. Only explaination I can give for the Cobra losing to a Vette is the Cobra was worth WAY more and the engine is much more scarce than a Vette, so replacing one is a major headache. Most likely the guy wasn't pushing it to it's limits for that very reason. It takes a VERY skilled driver to effictively control a big block Cobra. Not for anyone (including me) on this forum. And you f-ed up replacing that wonderful flat tappet cam! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Eric: It's amazing the modifications that are done to today's vehicles to get POORER results than were obtained back in the 60's and 70's. The Yenko was in the high 10s with ONLY a 12 bolt rear end and none of the fancy dancy mods that you list on your car. It's called the KISS principle. And I pretty much ignore claims of "I probably have more "real world" expirience at racing cars than you do!" because (1) they are impossible to substantiate and (2) they are usually BS from people who have NO real world experience and are trying to win an argument the easy way. BTW...if Vettes are so fantastic with that Mickey Mouse sports car rear suspension, I wonder why the SOP for a Vette that is going to do serious drag racing is to REPLACE that fragile rear end setup with a solid axle? But of course, all those pros must know nothing compared to an expert like you. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dep




[Modified by DJ Dep, 6:05 PM 4/7/2004]

MR L88

Hi guys! The L88 in question here just happens to be mine.I'll try to answer a few of the questions Ive read in the past few days. The car was put together for Pure Stock racing,mostly at the Pure Stock drags in Stanton Mich.I also race it locally here in MN. It is built to L88 specs and has the correct casting #s on the block, heads,intake,exh manifolds,and carb.12.5 to comp.thm 400 trans ,4.10 rear gears.The engine made 503 hp on the dyno with the factory untouched cast iron manifolds,575hp with cheapo headers!Those manifiolds really choke the 427! The trick is to launch on skinny reproduction tires and still run a decent time.thats' were the L88 has a real advantage,no low end power. It was designed to road race and really pulls after about 3500 rpm.The weight issue,the car was road raced before I bought it and was nose heavy on the scales,so the rear crossmember was filled with lead! Its coming out in two weeks.As far as the yenko sc nova,wasnt that a L88 engine with headers? Give me headers and slicks and youve got yourself a race! The car is a clone by the way,was L36 with a 4 speed when new,that stuff got scattered on the race track 30 years ago. :thumbs:

Chuck Harmon

MRL88,

Welcome! :cheers: Lots of bench racing over the power of the L88. Great to see someone who has done it and has also had the engine verified by a sanctioned group with dyno sheets to establish what the power actually is. I have never run my factory spec L88 on a bench dyno, but I did pull 483rwhp which I believed was probably about 550hp at the crank using Hooker headers and side pipes.

Please post more information and stories on yours. I have no doubt that many on this forum would love to hear!

Chuck

DJ Dep

Welcome Mr.L88. Actually, the Yenko SC Nova was an L-72 engine. Originally rated at 450 HP, but later re-rated at 425...even though no changes were done to justify the lower rating. Yenko would pretty much put whatever a customer wanted on the cars as far as engine mods were concerned, so there really is no "standard" other than the L-72 as a baseline. Cam, headers, gear, and traction bars were fairly common installs. Slicks were almost mandatory, since the tires would would go up in smoke. With very minor mods, the SC Nova was in the high 10s. And that is 10s with cast iron heads. The original Yenko SC Nova is about as rare as a real Cobra 427, so you may have a hard time finding a race. But I wouldn't be racing for pink slips if I were you. ;)

Dep


[Modified by DJ Dep, 9:55 PM 4/7/2004]