GrandSportC3

I've actually posted that post in another thread.. but felt like posting iit as a new thread too.. Here's my take on discount crate engines:

You have to consider a few other things when judging discount builders engines including AR.. Many of those very low priced engines are built to withstand a certain HP and RPM level which will be close to the engines actual output. Inaccurate timing, tuning, install or aftermarket engine mods could easily cause damage to engines that are built to the limits of the internal parts. For example.. When I got my engine - I knew that my rods, pistons, crank, springs were only good to about 500 HP and about 6200 RPM... I had the engine installed by an ASE certified master technician (who also broke in the cam etc..). I went with their recommended carb, rev limiter and set the timing exactly to the specs specified by the engine builder. Maybe I got lucky that the engine held up so good.. but there's a chance that it held up that good because I did everything the way the builder recommended it. I know fellow floridian who also bought a engine from AR and he started having issues with his AR engine... (Don't remember what exactly the problem was).. I had some idea what caused the damage after he showed me some of his dyno sheets.. When they dynoed the car - they took the RPM to 7000 RPM on a engine that was rated 6000 RPM.. ...
No wonder that it broke..... (BTW - he told me that AR replaced the broken parts -even though it was clear to me that the engine was overreved on the dyno) There are so many factors that can cause engine damage and if you have an engine whose internals are rated close to the actual HP of the car - you better follow all the engine builders instructions and recommendations or you might get problems..

Summerfun

You hit the nail right on the head!!

Homie

Good post GrandSport.

Sure hope my 406 from AR Racing holds up. The guy who is installing it said it looks like quality stuff.

I won't be revving it to 7000 rpm, trust me

mrvette

GS, of course right on with that comment there, funny thing is,....isn't that OBVIOUS??? second off, I feel there is little to no use for over 5500 rpm on any street driven car, just too hard on the merchandise, and of course racing is not covered by any warrenty I know of....

another good reason I left the track decades ago.....I like hearing race engines, burning someone elses cash that is.....

GENE

DJ Dep

Well said Olivier! It's the old "you get's what you paid for".
But what IS a "discount crate engine"????
All the ones I've seen and priced sure weren't "discount" in my opinion. Wheeler, Shafiroff, Huntsvile, Ohio Crankshaft, etc., all cost big $$$.

Definitely taking an engine above the rated RPM is asking for trouble.

Dep

mountainmotor

Any engine needs be built stout enough for the occasional missed gear .

If a engine makes max HP at 6k and cannot be blipped to 7500 w/o grenading something is amiss . An engine underload will be happier at 7500 that one thats in ......... neutral

I don't like crate motors from anyones house . JMO . Me think it's always best to build your own . Buying crate motors comes in 2nd or 3rd or 64th depending where it comes from

Gordonm

You get what you pay for. I prefer knowing what is in the engine and how it was put together. You can't tell by looking at a crate engine that it has quality parts in it. It could have a cast crank crappy rods and cast pistons. Unless you take it apart you don't know. Crate engines are great for many and they have worked fine. I took my LT1 shortblock from GM and took it apart. Went to the machine shop to check it out. The bores were not round the rods needed some work. The crank was dead straight. It was not perfect by any means. It now sings to 7000 rpm without any problem. Not sure what it would have done in its as delivered state. Stay within the limits of the recomendations and you should be fine.

nxfirebird

what went wrong with his motor? unless they floated the valves they most likely didn't hurt it.

Ironcross

It appears that most engine problems are owner caused and by the bench racers, not the builders. Expecting high performance from a low compression hydraulic cammed engine to perform like a solid lifter 11-1+ or more. It ain`t gonna happen. Imaginary dyno sheets dont work. Speed costs $$$$$, but the most important item is the selection of the right combination of parts and the brains to make the most of it. Otherwise you may just have a high dollar slug.

DJ Dep

Well said!!!

Dep

GrandSportC3

Well - it needs to be built that way.. but unfortunately it looks like the cheaper parts used in discount builds can't hold up and therefore it's a good idea to have a rev limiter in the car.. I set mine very conservative at 6000 RPM.. I used to have it at 6200 RPM which is the max. RPM that the engine builder said that I should rev the engine.. I have had it to 6500 RPM once or twice with no damage.. but I never got anywheire close to 7000 RPM... Especially stroker engines need to be built with very good ands strong parts for 7000+ RPM because of the higher piston speed compared to shorter stroke engines at the same RPM..

I know that you are a excellent engine builder and I ask you.. Can you build a 450+ HP small block engine that will hold up to 7500 RPM for less than $3k?? I know that you are able to build a engine that will hold up perfectly fine.. but could you do it at that price?

Larry B.

Hi Oliver... I've done my share of engine hop up over the years althought I'm a little more reserved now. Everything must be matched. The weakest part will determine the fate of the engine. There were always those guys that blew up there engines on a regular basis and never understood why. When you race, there's always the chance on something going wrong. Also keep in mind that some people can quickly destroy anything they get their hands on.

bobs77vet

when it was said and done, and there was no more time to think about and dream of exotic engine set ups at give away prices.... i took my money to a local engine builder with a good reputation and a fair price.... as he said if you have a problem you know exactly who i am and where to find me.... i will pick up the 350/350 later this week... and i did mention i got to see the parts selected, partcipate in person in discussing the cam with the builder etc,etc...

mountainmotor

Question from Oliver

I know that you are a excellent engine builder and I ask you.. Can you build a 450+ HP small block engine that will hold up to 7500 RPM for less than $3k?? I know that you are able to build a engine that will hold up perfectly fine.. but could you do it at that price?

Nope , no way . It would go over budget for the short block only .Engines need to be built bulletproof save for the odd unforseen component failure that happens with even the best of parts sometimes .

Homes built from the ground up with concrete foundations and footing stay the time vs homes built with sandstone foundations .

It's a big topic here with alot to talk about . There are junk components asked to do much more than designed to do then there are junk owners who can destroy anything handed to them .

Here is what I see most . I see engines that are never freshened up when it's time . There are many signs a engine needs to be pulled down , fresh parts placed into them , big end of rods resized ect but alot of people just run them in the ground .

racebehappy2

I have a race designed a r race engine,it was built with race and abuse in mind and is used frequently.It has lasted for years without any problems 7000rpm shifts becuase the parts were made for it,the best part is with all things equal the cost was still 1/2 of any builder I asked about before I went to them.When I am at the local track I see other engines they built that are older than mine lasting with no problems which makes me feel good.I guess the point is if its built for it [hi rpm ]it will live there,Some of the other post I see seems like they used street engines and way over revved them badly and hurt the engines when if that was going to be the rpm they wanted to use all they had to do was just call and consult the builders and everyone would have been imformed and possible damge cold have been stopped,When I built my engine I said I need 7500 rpm parts at least.Then again I wasnt afraid to pay any extra price for the quality.By the way I scene one of those pump gas 406s they got go 6.7 in a camaro last month !! kevin

Matt Gruber

if the crate is oak or walnut it is top quality.
if it is white wood with cardboard it is junk.

racebehappy2

If it is one of those canfield 406 s on the net I saw guy at waynesborro race way clip off a 6.78 in the 1/8 with one of them engines.I thought its was a race fuel engine but was driven to track on pump gas,That engine is 3 tenths faster than my 383 I got from them!!I would think you will be fast to maybe not that fast though that car a nova was setup good!!Kevin

GrandSportC3

Well - there are many people that cannot afford or aren't willing to exceed a certain budget for their crate engine.. Unfortunately - many people buy discount crate engines and expect them to be built as strong as expensive engines. I didn't expect my engine to be built as strong as expensive engines - and therefore I took precautions not to damage the engine.. Well - I raced a lot but I always kept the RPM limiter to a conservative RPM etc. and always maintained the engine very well.. That's why it lasted that long.. If others that are buying discount engine would do the same thing - fewer of those engines would develop problems..
My new engine that AR is building for me will be a fully forged short block that should hold up to severe abuse. Well - it's not priced at $2995... not even close...

76redl48

IMO crate engines are a great way to go for most people, the thing you have to remember is we are talking about a wide range of performance level. The crate engine I bought was a custom crate from AR - 350 4bolt main, dart heads, comp cam, performer rpm intake slightly more then stock. I installed it set it up and started it up by myself (ok my wife helped) with no problems. Now if I were to get an engine that was at a higher performance level at some point I would need help or even need a professinal to do the set up and startup. So what I am getting at is IMO a lot of the problems people experience with these so called discount crate engines is because they do not have the knowledge or expertise to finish the job now don't get me wrong I have done the same thing and paid the price to learn the hard way, and I understand not all problems are self inflicted but if you have your ducks in a row your chances of success will greatly increase.
Dave

SanDiegoPaul

My 383 has an all forged bottom end using 6 inch H-Beam rods. I found that the forged pistons make more noise than I was used to, but the thing is strong. The only thing I'd change was my choice to put a lot of $$ into cast iron heads instead of getting CA smog legal aluminum ones. That's an option for later.

But as installed the engine cost me $5895.00 and that was built locally not purchased on the Net.