5speeds

Hello All,

Usually I don't jump in on Forums much, but here are some facts. This is to end some confusion about new Muncies and also misinformation posted on other forums on this board. The Tremec 3550 and earlier TKO were discontinued in favor of the new TKO 500 and TKO 600 transmissions. The gears are the same, but the alloys are different. That is why one has a higher rating... There are GM versions and Ford versions and now come with both electronic and mechanical speedo drives. The new units can bolt up to a GM engine with no mods, and they offer offset shifters as well. If you are creative enough, you can make your own crossmember and shifter, so I don't see what the big deal is here.

Tremecs website is:
http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/TKO.asp

Now about ratios. These are not close ratio transmissions and basically wide ratio 4 speeds with an overdrive. The TKO 600 with the 2.87 1st and .82 is probably your best choice in terms of performance and being as close ratio as you can get. Ford and GM units are different in terms of input splines and case bolt patterns. You can usually pick these up from any Tremec dealer for about $1800 and change. See their website for dealer info. I'm not a dealer and don't sell them.

About the Muncie 5 speed. I helped Autogear design the 4 speed and yes there is a 5 speed in the works. I just finished attending the Performance Racing show ( where I have a booth ) and wanted to see if we were on track with the design and applications. This application will fit exactly in place in the 4 speed but realistically will be out sometime by 2006. The reason for the delay is we needed to see where some of the racing rules go as far as shifter locations since there will be a dog ring gearset available for it .

In terms of performance, I am not aware of any TKO 600's or 500's failing or new Muncies failing, (if built ALL NEW). If you are doing the road race or 1/4 mile thing ONLY, then a Muncie will out perform a TKO based on HP loss to the rear wheels and crappy ratios. M22W is great for drag, M22X great for road. If you need STREET and STRIP the advantages of the TKO on the street FAR EXCEED the benefits of the Muncie.

If you need to understand better about gear ratios please read:
http://www.5speeds.com/ratios.html

This will be in my new book published by S/A design and Cartech books.

Take care,

Paul
http://www.5speeds.com

Mako72

Thanks for the information. Question, all things being equal on a 3.36 rear geared Corvette, which would post the better quarter mile time? A 2.52 first gear Muncie or a 2.87 first gear TKO-600-64? I would have thought that with the 2.87 first gear that the TKO would (harder launch), but you indicate otherwise in your post.

69ttop502

Paul, thanks alot for the information. I am holding out for the 5 speed Muncie. I am assuming it is going to be an overdrive. Any more information you have would be great. Thanks again.

5speeds

You can download my RPM calculator at It calculates ratio spreads:

www.5speeds.com/rpm.htm

Yes the TKO will launch harder. Still the ratio spread is better on the M22W and your power band won't fall off, plus you'll add about 10 more HP to the rear wheels. Again PLEASE READ CAREFULLY my original post. The TKO for the street is a better choice. For track only, gear the car correctly if your serious about being competitive and winning.

Paul

CGGorman

Don't forget that proper gearing is a function of engine power slopes. What's right for a torquey 383 stroker will NOT work with a high winding 327...even if they produce the same power it will be at different points in the operating range. Further, the useable range can vary significantly. An engine with a very broad power band will benefit from wider gear spacing where an engine with a narrow range will bog.

Frankly, if you were serious about winning at a drag track, you wouldn't have either of these trannys. You'd have an auto or a single speed with slipper clutches.

redvetracr

Funny, the sign over YOUR booth at the PRI show said "Roltek" or "Borerite" are you the new owner?? I just want to get my "facts" straight...
...redvetracr

5speeds

Should have said hello. I have been working with Roltek for 5 years now with the new JT5 5 speed race stuff and dog ring gears for the Muncie. We assemble and sell Roltek stuff. We share a booth at the show. The 5 speed stuff is exclusive to me and is my design. It has been a great mutual relationship. So next time you see me at a show, say hello. FYI quite a number of people split booth costs at the show....

Paul

Graemeinvette

Paul,
I have just bought a 6 speed from a 'specialist' that came with an adaptor on the bellhousing to fit to my small block. Are you saying that Tremec make a bellhousing that will fit direct?

Graeme

WESCH

Hi

You need the adapter plate for your T56 as the input spline is modifyed including this little extra length to fir the GM bellhousings.
That's at least the way I understand it.

Only the TKO500 and TKO600 fit directly without adapter plate to GMs bellhousings.

Did you install the T56 already ? Do you think it's possible to install it without cutting and/or relocating the crossmember ?
I mean install engine + trans as an assy.

Gunther

Graemeinvette

Gunther,
I bought the T56 from people in the US who have been monosylabic in response to our queries. We are in the process of modding the crossmember now, but I was hoping that losing the adaptor would give the box and shgifter a better location.

Graeme

Graemeinvette

Gunther,
I bought the T56 from people in the US who have been monosylabic in response to our queries. We are in the process of modding the crossmember now, but I was hoping that losing the adaptor would give the box and shifter a better location.

Graeme

WESCH

Hi

Did you get the T56 standart GM version with the 2.97 1st and .62 6th gear or the T56 Viper version with the 2.66 1st and .50 6th gear ?
I am in process to soon order a T56, but can't locate the standart version with a mechanical speedo gear adapter.
This is ( only ) offered on the T56 Viper version.
Viper version = 2499 , standart version is 1962 $.
I would go for the cheaper version, if I could get it with the same adapter plate and mech. speedo setup.

Gunther

redvetracr

I had a Roltek...gave it back and bought a T-101
...redvetracr

djcwardog

Folks,

I have also been following Wally on the Chevelle forum "transmission" pages as he provides updates on the new Auto Gear (based on old "Muncie" design) 5 speed. This post here is the first one I remember that says that external dimensions will be the same - assume it will go right in place of an M21 with only new shift linkages needed...? Good to see another choice for manual OD trannys - hope they get it out before summer of 05 as I am sure we will all be interested in it!

Graemeinvette

I bought the Viper version with the 2.66 first, at that price it looks like you are looking at the same vendor I bought from, dont! Mine arrived without a shifter and a stripped thread on the adaptor plate that had to be helicoiled adn as much after sales service as a crematorium. Try these guys instead, much friendlier! http://www.classicchevy5speed.com/ Good time to buy though with the $ so low!

Graeme

Brettmc

Can you give us any specific info on the muncie 5?

Brett

WESCH

Hi

Clasicchevy does not seem to offer the T56 at all, at least not on their web page. I E-mailed them regarding this.
I looked at D&D Performance, they seem to be the only once offering the T56 with a mechanical speedo adapter, so it would fit my 68 Vette.
Keisler also offers the T56 Viper trans, but not with the mech. speedo gear setup, or ?
I might on the end just go for the TKO600, is surely easier to install, 40 or more Pounds lighter and the .64 Overdrive will also do.
The T56 Viper trans is suppost to become 500 $ more expensive as of Jan 05. So, if I want one, I have to hurry.

Gunther

5speeds

About Muncie 5 speed specifics.

The transmission requirements is that it fits directly into the same configuration as the present Muncie. This is accomplished by having no mid plate and creating a longer maincase and making the reverse gear part of the 1-2 slider. Just how a T5 reverse or Hemi Chrysler A833 works. The linkage will be a 3 rail internal system on the side similar to a Ford SROD. Which will allow for several side shift locations. Again don't expect anything in 2005.

Paul

5speeds

T56's are an interesting question. Do you need a wide ratio 4 speed with 2 overdrive gears? Granted the T56 is not as wide as the TKO but we keep on adding more and more mass which equals more HP losses at the wheels. The T56 has a longer center to center making it very strong. Few T56 transmissions break. There are however synchro issues. The new G-Force conversion kits to convert your standard box into a Z06 spec transmission are available, with new close ratios gears and Z06 upgrade you can dump over 4 grand into it.

see http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com

What I don't like about any of these kit guys is that it would be nice for them to show pictures of the bare floors, pictures of the installations underneath, etc. That is what I do with my Jaguar kit ( sorry I know this is a Vette forum ) . You an see every aspect of the kit installation. I personally would like to see more pics of installations.

see http://www.5speeds.com/jag.htm for fun...

Paul

WESCH

Hi

Would be great, but to wait, well.... and at what price range ?
I took a bit more time to crowl through Keisler's web page.
Well, they do offer the GM/T56 basic trans , fits to GM bellhousing and has mech. speedo adapter, 475 HP standart version for 2000 $ and the T56 viper trans for 2400 + required electr to mech speedo adapter for an extra 280 $ , making it 2680 $.
Is it worse the extra nearly 700 $ to upgrate to the Viper version for me , just having the standart 435 HP 427 BB in my 68 Vette ?
Well, it doesn't need many mods to reach the 475 HP.

Gunther