UV231 Project

Cool.. And you are coming to do mine when? LOL

Keep up the great work and thank you again for sharing it.

Mo_Bandy

Thanks, yes I'm getting close!

Mo

UV231 Project

Mo,

As you know I have had my EV donor car since 2009. But I have to get my current project off my plate and find it a new home before I can move on to something else like my EV project. Anyways, for now I am living through you and your EV project until I can start working on my own.

Mo_Bandy

I'm sure the time will come before you know it

Mo

Mo_Bandy

Made good progress tonight.
12 volts reconnected
DC/DC converter reconnected
Contactor box and charger reinstalled
preliminary power wires run to the BMS

Fired the car up to at least to check things out.

Tomorrow:
Flush the battery cooling system
attach BMS wire to the 72 cells
connect the BMS and thermistor module
hopefully program the BMS
Finish the battery braces to keep them in place
start to button up the back end and replace the carpet.

Pretty aggressive but hey

Mo

ColaBear

looking good. Can't wait for the shake down report.

Mo_Bandy

So in spite of numerous interruptions and delays, I'm still moving forward.

BMS Harness finished and just waiting to validate it before connecting it to the BMS.

Side stiffeners installed to keep the pack in place.

Emergency Shut off installed and mounted.

Rear Fuse Box installed (still loose for adding components ( cooling pump, Thermistor Module and BMS .)




BMS Wiring harness complete, the wider white terminal blocks will go away once all the connections are validated.



Driver side pack reinforcement installed. Emergency shut off installed and mounted, rear fuse block partially installed,



Passenger side pack reinforcement installed. To keep the modules that are above the frame rails from siding sideways



wiring in CAN Busses for the BMS and Thermistor Module



Coolant pump installed and operating.


Now pretty much down to validating the BMS Harness ( validation tool delayed )

Make up thermistor module harnesses.

Program the BMS an Thermistor Module

Finish closing things up....

Enjoy!

Mo

Loa

Hello Mo,

Thanks for the updates, and I can't wait to hear how your car will drive with these new batteries.

The 1975ish Vettes weigh around 3600 pounds stock, but I'm still not sure how much the stuff I'll pull out (engine, exhaust, radiators, tank, etc...) weighs. I'm ultimately looking for a 80 mile range, but I could start with somewhere around 60. With a 11" motor and tesla packs, can you give me a rough idea of how many pack's I'd need?

Also, I'm currently trying to make a list of all the parts I'll need. Would you mind telling me what I'm missing?

-Motor (and mounts, cooling fan): leaning towards 11". Are there better alternatives?
-Batteries (and braces): going to be tesla packs.
-Speed Control (and pedal? Did you keep the original pedal?): no idea.
-Battery management system (which I assume is also the charger?): no idea.
-Battery cooling system: no idea.
-Electric power steering motor
-Electric vacuum pump (for brakes)
-Fuse boxes (I know I need some, not sure where yet)
-Emergency kill switch (including automatic in case of accident?)

I'm sure I need more things, but right now it's what I know. My plan is to have a completed parts list by the end of February.

Thanks a lot!

Loa

Mo_Bandy

Hi Loa,


Ok so you are dealing with roughly the same weight as I am.

So rough method you take 10% of your cars weight: so 360

and you want to go about 80 miles: so 360 *80 = 28,800 W or 28.8Kw
-Motor (and mounts, cooling fan): leaning towards 11". Are there better alternatives?
-Batteries (and braces): going to be tesla packs.
-Speed Control (and pedal? Did you keep the original pedal?): no idea.
-Battery management system (which I assume is also the charger?): no idea.
-Battery cooling system: no idea.
-Electric power steering motor
-Electric vacuum pump (for brakes)
-Fuse boxes (I know I need some, not sure where yet)
-Emergency kill switch (including automatic in case of accident?)


You would need to add 20% to that number as you only ant to use about 80% of the batteries. So you take 28,800 + 5,760= 34,560 or 34.6 KW battery pack. Each of the tesla modules are about 5.3Kw each, so roughly 6.5 Modules so round up to 7 modules you would be running about 175 volts and with the 250Ah at 80% would put you at 35Kw. So at 70% depth of discharge you would still be at about 161 volts. The motor would still be great at 150Volts as well... You can certainly go to 8 modules, if you have it in the budget.

-Motor (and mounts, cooling fan): leaning towards 11". Are there better alternatives? you can go with a single 9" unless you are looking for a lot of speed, the 11" will provide a lot of low end torque like a big block

-Batteries (and braces): going to be tesla packs. You would need to build a battery box to keep the batteries dry and warm, you can fabricate them or use a aluminum battery box, however you will want or need access to both the front and rear of the batteries, I'm making front an rear access plates that I can remove but I will be putting carpeting around the top. I do a lot of car shows so I will also use like a1/2 thick sheet of Lexan, you can also use like ABS or Marine board as well for the top cover. Mine are also setting between the frame rails for the most part as well, as you have seen from the pictures.

-Speed Control (and pedal? Did you keep the original pedal?): no idea. Yes you can use the same pedal and you would use a "pot box" which is essentially like a throttle positioning switch.

-Battery management system (which I assume is also the charger?): no idea. The BMS I chose is an Orion you would need at least a 42 cell system. The battery charger is also separate. There are many choices I prefer Manzanita Micro, you can simply punch in the charge voltage and you're done rather than if you add another module having to send the charger out for reprogramming... Also the higher charging current you have the faster the battery pack will charge.
-Battery cooling system: no idea. I'm using a Swiftech pump. the hoses are 5/16 I.D.

-Electric power steering motor I'm not sure if we can post the dealers who sell these but with a PM I will be happy to share... they run about $1,000

-Electric vacuum pump (for brakes) I use the SSBC complete system that has the pressure switch included, they run about $300...

-Fuse boxes (I know I need some, not sure where yet) Currently I'm using 3 boxes that are 8 fuses each. I have 1 each that are switched and unswitched 12V and in the rear I have one that I have 4 circuits switched and 4 unswitched. This should cover most everything you need to add.
-Emergency kill switch (including automatic in case of accident?) You can use an inertia switch, and have it in line with the switched 12V line. should you hit something it will immediately kill the 12 power and the car with stop, you press the top and you can restore the power.

You would also need a shunt to monitor your amp draw, as well as a volt meter and an AH gauge to track how much battery you have left, look at it like a fuel gauge i.e. so as an example 200AH is full and 50 AH is empty...

You will also need to consider a separate cooling system for the controller, this will need to be higher capacity than the one for the batteries as the controller needs to dissipate much more heat.

You will need a DC/DC controller to act essentially like your alternator, it will take the 175 vdc pack voltage and use it to keep the 12 battery charged on your car for running essentially everything that is 12v in the car, pump, power steering, vacuum pumps etc....

You will need the speed sensor for the motor, and have it drive a tach.

You also need to look for controller as well, this is what drives the motor, there is Zilla which is the high performance controller and then there is Soliton. Since you are only driving one motor you would not need more than a 1000W controller... Which rough sag voltage of about 160V and say running the motor at an aggressive 800 amps with give you about 129.3KW which equates to about 175 HP and about 240 ft/Lbs these numbers perhaps sound a bit low, but the torque is 240 from 0 rpm through probably about 2500-3000 rpms...

I'm assuming you will use the stock 4 speed, which is perfect, you may need to go to racing clutch I would go with a Fidanza aluminum flywheel.

You will need at least 2/0 cable for the batteries and motor connections to the controller. You can also purchase the copper jumpers as well to go between the batteries.


You will need the motor adapter kit, this will allow you to mate the motor to your bell housing and the motor shaft to your flywheel etc. with the adapter.

This is pretty much the list, please feel free to PM I can give you more details in an email...

Best regards,
MO

Loa

Wow! Thanks a lot for all that info! I think I'll need a few days/weeks to process and research it all.

Quick questions:
-240ft/lbs of torque from 0-3000 sounds pretty good. Is that with the 9" or 11" motor?
-With the Tesla packs, will adding more only give me more range, or more range AND more power?

Thanks!

Loa

Mo_Bandy

this is the 11" and it would provide more range and more power.

Mo

Mo_Bandy

Loa,
Sorry so brief yesterday.

Yes this was the 11" motor.

Adding more batteries will provide more distance, they can provide up to 1500 amps.

A motor is only capable of about 162,000 watts ( 180v * 900 amps) which is about (162,000watts /746)= 217 HP this is for about 10 to 15 seconds.

That said I have even run a single 9" motor ( with the 4L60 ) and the car ran great...


Adding more modules of batteries for example I suggested to you 7 modules , I will be running 13 and going to 14 modules and plan o see close to 160 -170 miles range ( at the expense of another 300 pounds)

Best regards,
Mo

Loa

Thanks for the added precision on the #battery packs Vs power/range.

I was asking because I was wondering if it would be possible to have two set-ups (let's say one set-up with 8 packs in series, the other with two groups of 4 packs in parallel) with the same number of battery packs. One designed for range, one for power. But from what I can gather, the 11" motor pretty much tops out at roughly 200hp.

New question then: if I'm using Tesla packs, at what number of packs will I reach max power with a 11" motor? (After which, adding more packs will only get me more range as I'll top the 900 amps. Is this right?)

I'm also curious about the clutch you mentioned. I do wanna buy a Vette with the 4 speed manual transmission, and I don't understand why I should think of changing the clutch.

Loa

Mo_Bandy

Hi Loa,

I was asking because I was wondering if it would be possible to have two set-ups (let's say one set-up with 8 packs in series, the other with two groups of 4 packs in parallel) with the same number of battery packs. One designed for range, one for power. But from what I can gather, the 11" motor pretty much tops out at roughly 200hp.

With the Tesla modules putting them in parallel would not really buy to anything. You would want to just go with 8 and leave them in series... To get about the 200 HP you would maybe want to consider 2 9" motors in a Siamese configuration like I have... The batteries will support a single motor with no issues at all... With 8 modules, at 1200 amps I'm guessing the sag would be down to about 144V *1200 amps = ~173Kw / 746 = 231 HP with full sag


New question then: if I'm using Tesla packs, at what number of packs will I reach max power with a 11" motor? (After which, adding more packs will only get me more range as I'll top the 900 amps. Is this right?)

Yes, as I explained above, 8 is what you would need for full power, with those 8 modules you would see about a 40Kw pack ( figuring 80%) if the car weighs about 3600 pounds 40,000w / 360 wh = 111 miles you would still be about 100 miles of range. So with 8 modules you would be able to make the full single motor power and exceed your "expected" 60-80 mile range.

I'm also curious about the clutch you mentioned. I do wanna buy a Vette with the 4 speed manual transmission, and I don't understand why I should think of changing the clutch.

You have to remember with a ICE ( internal combustion engine you generally don't make max torque until you are at about 3500 rpm's. An electric motor is almost inverse... you will make mx torque at literally 0 RPM and it falls off around 3200 RPM ( depending on amps and voltage settings) so you will want a clutch that will withstand the torque or you will ( or may) be burning up clutches...


Best regards,

MO

Loa

Hello Mo,

I understand your formula to calculate range, but I'm still not clear how to calculate power. I probably won't have the budget to purchase 8 packs in one go. I'm planning to start with 4 and buy 4 more later on.

So with 4 packs for this car and this motor (11"), I should get roughly 45 miles of range. (is that correct?)

Now I know I'll be below the roughly 200hp line, but I don't know by how much. Is it as simple as half the voltages = half the power?

Thanks again!

Mo_Bandy

Hi Loa,

The car will run, but be really "slow" on 4 cells

So to calculate the power to the motor:

You take the maximum voltage to the motor and the maximum current to the motor.

So with say 8 cells :

You will make max power with 8 cells


so even with voltage sag you would take 180v * 900Amps =162,000 watts. or 152Kw

to determine the horsepower you divide by 746 =217 HP


So with 4 cells

With approximate voltage sag you would be limited by the battery output.

I estimate with 4 modules at sag at say 1200 amps would be about 18 volts per module ( or this would be where the controller should be set to limit).

So 4 *18 = 64 volts.

64 volts *1200 amps =76,800 watts of battery power

so to the motor: 64 volts * 900 amps=57,600 watts

for the horsepower 57,600 watts / 746 = 77 HP at about 1000 rpms
your torque would be about 347 ft/lbs from 0-1000 and will be down to 46 ft/lbs at 2000 rpm.

So as I mentioned yes it will work but be like a golf cart. the total pack power would be 20Kw . So if we figure the car will weight say 3300 pounds.

We would take the 20Kw / 330wh per mile theoretically you would get 60 miles range.

my rough calculation would be the top speed of the car would be 35 mph and It will take it 21 seconds to get there.

With 5 cells you would be able to hit 60 mph however your 0-60 would be about 33.7 seconds just as a rough point of reference.

Depending on the roads you would be driving that may be fine...

That said, yes you absolutely can add an additional module to the pack as you are able. You will need to possibly rebalance the other batteries to the additional modules as you add them. Also the charger and the controller would have to be reprogrammed for those changes.

I hope this helps

MO

Loa

Hmmm. Thanks for the info. That does change my plans though. I was under the impression that I could build a decently powerful car with low range and then add more batteries to get that extra range.

Is it a limitation on the way the tesla packs are made? Could I select another battery to achieve what I want? (If I understand correctly: high voltage using batteries in series, and then adding another such set, but in parallel, later.)

Loa

Mo_Bandy

Hi Loa,

Yes absolutely.
You can go with the CALB cells similar to what I had before they occupy a bit more space...

T get full power at sag you will need 67 cells (2,7 volts x 67)= 180.9 the nominal voltage would be 214 volts (67cells X 3.2)

You could go with 67 180ah cells this would give you (3.2 volts X 67 cells X 180 Ah) = 38,592 watts

38,592 X .8 ( usable part of the cells) =30,874 watts or 30.8 Kw

30,874 watts / 360 ( estimated watt hours per mile) = 85 miles range

these cells weigh about 12 pounds each = 804 pounds

The cost is about $250 ea. or about $16K


You can also for less range go with CALB 100Ah

67 x 3.2 x 80 Ah ( usable) = 17,152 watt pack

These cells are about 7 pounds each or about 469 pounds

17,152w /360 wh/m = ~47 miles

These you can get for close to about $130 ea. or about $8K

You can later add more in series or parallel and might be the best fit...

Best regards,

MO

ghlkal

Mo, does your Vette have an automatic kill switch? If so, can you provide more information, beyond what you outlined here?

Thanks

Mo_Bandy

Hi ghlkal,

Yes it is an inertial switch that in the event of a roll over or a hard crash in gas powered cars it would shut off the fuel pump and thus kill the engine.

I have mine wired inline the +12V system of the car in the event something like that were to happen it would kill the power to the motor controller and at the same time disconnect the contactors to the high voltage pack

It is essentially a ball that is in a magnetic mount, if it were to disconnect you simply press it back into place like a reset button.

They run about 50 dollars...




inertia switch

I have mine mounted on the firewall of the car.

Hope this helps...

MO