Help No Electricity Dead Short Help
09-13-2015, 04:06 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
Help No Electricity Dead Short Help
I just bought my 1st 1991 Corvette. I drove it for 4wks and now when I put the key into the ignition and there is no electricity at all. The overhead light door light and buzzer don't come on. My mechanic replaced injectors, battery, alternator, wires, everything under the hood. Still nothing. It has a dead short that we can’t find. No check engine light.
Someone said that there is a solenoid close to the gas tank fuel sending unit. I don’t think that is the problem.
Does anyone have an answer? I really need help guys. Thank you
How do I post this message in C4 Tech forum?
Someone said that there is a solenoid close to the gas tank fuel sending unit. I don’t think that is the problem.
Does anyone have an answer? I really need help guys. Thank you
How do I post this message in C4 Tech forum?
09-13-2015, 04:41 PM
#2
start with cleaning both ends of the battery cables and the cables are good. look by the battery for another connection block and clean. look for a orange wire by the battery it is a fuseable link see if it's burnt up. make sure your battery is good and charged.
09-13-2015, 05:23 PM
#3
I just bought my 1st 1991 Corvette. I drove it for 4wks and now when I put the key into the ignition and there is no electricity at all. The overhead light door light and buzzer don't come on. My mechanic replaced injectors, battery, alternator, wires, everything under the hood. Still nothing. It has a dead short that we can’t find. No check engine light.
Someone said that there is a solenoid close to the gas tank fuel sending unit. I don’t think that is the problem.
Does anyone have an answer? I really need help guys. Thank you
How do I post this message in C4 Tech forum?
Someone said that there is a solenoid close to the gas tank fuel sending unit. I don’t think that is the problem.
Does anyone have an answer? I really need help guys. Thank you
How do I post this message in C4 Tech forum?
09-13-2015, 05:29 PM
#4
Racer
My experience with automotive wiring is that, generally speaking, problems are usually found within the grounding system. Particularly with Corvettes, the grounds are a problem since there isn't always a logical path to metal parts due to the use of fiberglass, plastic parts, and rubber bushings, etc. You'll notice, if you disassemble the interior, that there are ground straps in numerous places. Its because of the aforementioned lack of an overall ground path.
If you think about how current flows from the battery, it isn't from Positive to Negative as you'd think, but the other way around. DC current flows from Negative to Positive since electrons are "drawn" in that direction. Therefore, grounds, which are often left exposed to the elements, are very often corroded. The grounding system isn't fused so you can have problems that never cause one to blow.
I had a very similar problem with my 1990. After removing the battery and battery mount, I discovered massive corrosion where the grounds bond together and to the frame. Look just behind the battery, underneath the steering shaft. You'll see a bundle of grounds and fasteners to the frame. Pull all of that apart and clean everything. Then use dielectric grease on everything.
As a side note, I had trouble cleaning the corroded areas. I tried a wire brush and cleaner but couldn't get the connectors and connection points clean. I decided to purchase an air eraser (a tiny sand blaster) from Harbor Tools. They are about $25 and come with a small bottle of abrasive compound. It hardly dispenses any abrasive. I mean, it isn't as messy as you'd think. But I was able to get it into the nooks and crannys everywhere and clean every part. I cleaned the corrosion out of the threaded holes in the frame where the bolts needed to make contact too. After vacuuming and blowing out the area, then coating everything with dielectric grease and de-oxidation compound, I reassembled the wiring. It ended the problem. I've also used the air eraser to clean contacts inside plastic connectors. You can't get in there with a wire brush and you risk ruining the contacts if you use a Dremel tool. It's a wonderful trick and saves a great deal of time.
I'd start there since its as centralized a spot as you can find on the car. It's also in an area that gets a lot of water and road grime as well as a certain amount of battery acid.
If you think about how current flows from the battery, it isn't from Positive to Negative as you'd think, but the other way around. DC current flows from Negative to Positive since electrons are "drawn" in that direction. Therefore, grounds, which are often left exposed to the elements, are very often corroded. The grounding system isn't fused so you can have problems that never cause one to blow.
I had a very similar problem with my 1990. After removing the battery and battery mount, I discovered massive corrosion where the grounds bond together and to the frame. Look just behind the battery, underneath the steering shaft. You'll see a bundle of grounds and fasteners to the frame. Pull all of that apart and clean everything. Then use dielectric grease on everything.
As a side note, I had trouble cleaning the corroded areas. I tried a wire brush and cleaner but couldn't get the connectors and connection points clean. I decided to purchase an air eraser (a tiny sand blaster) from Harbor Tools. They are about $25 and come with a small bottle of abrasive compound. It hardly dispenses any abrasive. I mean, it isn't as messy as you'd think. But I was able to get it into the nooks and crannys everywhere and clean every part. I cleaned the corrosion out of the threaded holes in the frame where the bolts needed to make contact too. After vacuuming and blowing out the area, then coating everything with dielectric grease and de-oxidation compound, I reassembled the wiring. It ended the problem. I've also used the air eraser to clean contacts inside plastic connectors. You can't get in there with a wire brush and you risk ruining the contacts if you use a Dremel tool. It's a wonderful trick and saves a great deal of time.
I'd start there since its as centralized a spot as you can find on the car. It's also in an area that gets a lot of water and road grime as well as a certain amount of battery acid.
09-13-2015, 07:49 PM
#5
Advanced
Thread Starter
Dremmel tool
I am going to write all this down and give it to the mechanic. I didn't know about the fuse block behind the Battery. This is the 2nd new Battery and 2nd new alternator. I also put a test wire from the Neg on the Battery to the frame. I scraped the surfaces clean before I did it. But I will do what you suggested.
It seems like the wires from the battery aren't getting to what ever is next. I have been wanting a Dremel. I think we may have some dielectric grease.
It seems like the wires from the battery aren't getting to what ever is next. I have been wanting a Dremel. I think we may have some dielectric grease.
My experience with automotive wiring is that, generally speaking, problems are usually found within the grounding system. Particularly with Corvettes, the grounds are a problem since there isn't always a logical path to metal parts due to the use of fiberglass, plastic parts, and rubber bushings, etc. You'll notice, if you disassemble the interior, that there are ground straps in numerous places. Its because of the aforementioned lack of an overall ground path.
If you think about how current flows from the battery, it isn't from Positive to Negative as you'd think, but the other way around. DC current flows from Negative to Positive since electrons are "drawn" in that direction. Therefore, grounds, which are often left exposed to the elements, are very often corroded. The grounding system isn't fused so you can have problems that never cause one to blow.
I had a very similar problem with my 1990. After removing the battery and battery mount, I discovered massive corrosion where the grounds bond together and to the frame. Look just behind the battery, underneath the steering shaft. You'll see a bundle of grounds and fasteners to the frame. Pull all of that apart and clean everything. Then use dielectric grease on everything.
As a side note, I had trouble cleaning the corroded areas. I tried a wire brush and cleaner but couldn't get the connectors and connection points clean. I decided to purchase an air eraser (a tiny sand blaster) from Harbor Tools. They are about $25 and come with a small bottle of abrasive compound. It hardly dispenses any abrasive. I mean, it isn't as messy as you'd think. But I was able to get it into the nooks and crannys everywhere and clean every part. I cleaned the corrosion out of the threaded holes in the frame where the bolts needed to make contact too. After vacuuming and blowing out the area, then coating everything with dielectric grease and de-oxidation compound, I reassembled the wiring. It ended the problem. I've also used the air eraser to clean contacts inside plastic connectors. You can't get in there with a wire brush and you risk ruining the contacts if you use a Dremel tool. It's a wonderful trick and saves a great deal of time.
I'd start there since its as centralized a spot as you can find on the car. It's also in an area that gets a lot of water and road grime as well as a certain amount of battery acid.
If you think about how current flows from the battery, it isn't from Positive to Negative as you'd think, but the other way around. DC current flows from Negative to Positive since electrons are "drawn" in that direction. Therefore, grounds, which are often left exposed to the elements, are very often corroded. The grounding system isn't fused so you can have problems that never cause one to blow.
I had a very similar problem with my 1990. After removing the battery and battery mount, I discovered massive corrosion where the grounds bond together and to the frame. Look just behind the battery, underneath the steering shaft. You'll see a bundle of grounds and fasteners to the frame. Pull all of that apart and clean everything. Then use dielectric grease on everything.
As a side note, I had trouble cleaning the corroded areas. I tried a wire brush and cleaner but couldn't get the connectors and connection points clean. I decided to purchase an air eraser (a tiny sand blaster) from Harbor Tools. They are about $25 and come with a small bottle of abrasive compound. It hardly dispenses any abrasive. I mean, it isn't as messy as you'd think. But I was able to get it into the nooks and crannys everywhere and clean every part. I cleaned the corrosion out of the threaded holes in the frame where the bolts needed to make contact too. After vacuuming and blowing out the area, then coating everything with dielectric grease and de-oxidation compound, I reassembled the wiring. It ended the problem. I've also used the air eraser to clean contacts inside plastic connectors. You can't get in there with a wire brush and you risk ruining the contacts if you use a Dremel tool. It's a wonderful trick and saves a great deal of time.
I'd start there since its as centralized a spot as you can find on the car. It's also in an area that gets a lot of water and road grime as well as a certain amount of battery acid.
09-13-2015, 07:54 PM
#6
Advanced
Thread Starter
Fuse between Battery and starter
When yours went bad did the dash lights, buzzer and everything light up or did you just get totally nothing? Thanks
I had a similar situation on my 95 behind the battery there is a fuse block housing six differnt fuses for fuel, dash and engine. Check to see if the whole unit has come loose. You need to remove the battery to get to it. At least that was how it was on my 1995, ran great one day dead as a door nail the next.
09-13-2015, 09:01 PM
#7
The fuse able link went on my 94. Afresh battery gave me power. Just read the other day that there are two fusible links I'n the harness. The other one is main voltage source. Test the wires to see if current is getting through. Alternator to battery, battery to the block on the firewall behind the battery. Was the first alternator confirmed bad? Could have sent a surge that melted the fusible link.
09-13-2015, 10:03 PM
#8
Pro
The best way to find a short is to start isolating circuits. You can pull fuses one at a time or disconnect plugs or wires. Check for electrical draw every time you disconnect a circuit. Much cheaper than just buying unnecessary parts.
09-13-2015, 10:46 PM
#9
Advanced
Thread Starter
Surge is possible
I don't know how the mechanic determined the 1st alternator was bad other than process of elimination. This makes the 3rd Alternator and 2nd New Battery. Will the gauges light up or not if it is bad?
I like the Negative ground idea because it will not throw a Code. What about the starter? Does it get juice before the Dash lights come on?
When you put the key in and turn it once the dash lights all come on right? Do the wires to the starter get juice at that point or do they get juice on the next turn off the key? Thanks
I like the Negative ground idea because it will not throw a Code. What about the starter? Does it get juice before the Dash lights come on?
When you put the key in and turn it once the dash lights all come on right? Do the wires to the starter get juice at that point or do they get juice on the next turn off the key? Thanks
The fuse able link went on my 94. Afresh battery gave me power. Just read the other day that there are two fusible links I'n the harness. The other one is main voltage source. Test the wires to see if current is getting through. Alternator to battery, battery to the block on the firewall behind the battery. Was the first alternator confirmed bad? Could have sent a surge that melted the fusible link.
09-13-2015, 10:58 PM
#10
Advanced
Thread Starter
Spell check
I am not used to your software and I cant find out where to turn the Spell Checker.
I hope that is what he is doing now. He was very sure that his mechanic could fix it. He was all smiles and bragging, now he is avoiding me and real secretive. He has had it for 2 weeks now.
I hope that is what he is doing now. He was very sure that his mechanic could fix it. He was all smiles and bragging, now he is avoiding me and real secretive. He has had it for 2 weeks now.
09-13-2015, 11:57 PM
#11
Instructor
Member Since: Jul 2013
Location: Castle Rock Colorado
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Looking at my fsm electrical diagrams, the fuseible link in question is link T. Runs from junction block behind battery along with A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,M,R Feeds the ignition switch, starter enable relay, main fuse block. Fuseible link H feeds ECM, oil pressure switch. Any mechanic worth his salt could figure this out within a few hours. Time to find a new mechanic, with a clue on how to troubleshoot electrical system. This is what I come up with, with the limited info given. Good luck.
09-14-2015, 12:08 AM
#12
Advanced
Thread Starter
Car out of Shop while still broken
I was impressed with your diagnosis. I am going to print this out and show it to him and if he has a bewildered look take it from there. Thank you Sir.
Looking at my fsm electrical diagrams, the fuseible link in question is link T. Runs from junction block behind battery along with A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,M,R Feeds the ignition switch, starter enable relay, main fuse block. Fuseible link H feeds ECM, oil pressure switch. Any mechanic worth his salt could figure this out within a few hours. Time to find a new mechanic, with a clue on how to troubleshoot electrical system. This is what I come up with, with the limited info given. Good luck.
09-14-2015, 09:50 AM
#13
Key would chime and I door lights came on, when you opened the door. Everything else was dead, no dash lights except the security light would flash and when you turned the key nothing at all.
09-14-2015, 09:55 AM
#14
Looking at my fsm electrical diagrams, the fuseible link in question is link T. Runs from junction block behind battery along with A,B,C,D,E,F,G,J,M,R Feeds the ignition switch, starter enable relay, main fuse block. Fuseible link H feeds ECM, oil pressure switch. Any mechanic worth his salt could figure this out within a few hours. Time to find a new mechanic, with a clue on how to troubleshoot electrical system. This is what I come up with, with the limited info given. Good luck.
11-01-2015, 02:15 PM
#15
Advanced
Thread Starter
Back again same problem 2 new batteries
Hey Guys I am back again with the same problem. After my last post my problem came back. It broke down 3 weeks ago. I had it towed to another shop.
They said that they changed out the Battery and alternator. After I got it out and it drove just fine up until yesterday. I was at a business for 5 mins came out turned the key and the dash lights came on but the starter would not hit. I called AAA they came out to give it a jump. He hooked up a diagnostic machine and said nothing was wrong with it. I turned the key to show him and it started. On my way home it started missing I pulled into the Wal-mart. They said I would have to turn it off to check it. I told him if I turned it off It might not start. I did and it would not start. He ran a diagnostic and said the Battery was no good. I tried to start it and it did not turn over. The dash lights came on along the security light. I did not say anything about the security light before but it came on when the dash lights came on. I added a ground wire from the Neg post to part of the frame with no results. Should I take it back off?
I am going the air eraser mentioned by you.
Checking the fuses. When ya’ll talk about the fuses, wouldn’t they stay broken? I have never had a fuse go bad and back to good.
I am going to try cleaning that box behind the battery again.
Thanks Guys.
Could this be a dragging starter?
They said that they changed out the Battery and alternator. After I got it out and it drove just fine up until yesterday. I was at a business for 5 mins came out turned the key and the dash lights came on but the starter would not hit. I called AAA they came out to give it a jump. He hooked up a diagnostic machine and said nothing was wrong with it. I turned the key to show him and it started. On my way home it started missing I pulled into the Wal-mart. They said I would have to turn it off to check it. I told him if I turned it off It might not start. I did and it would not start. He ran a diagnostic and said the Battery was no good. I tried to start it and it did not turn over. The dash lights came on along the security light. I did not say anything about the security light before but it came on when the dash lights came on. I added a ground wire from the Neg post to part of the frame with no results. Should I take it back off?
I am going the air eraser mentioned by you.
Checking the fuses. When ya’ll talk about the fuses, wouldn’t they stay broken? I have never had a fuse go bad and back to good.
I am going to try cleaning that box behind the battery again.
Thanks Guys.
Could this be a dragging starter?
11-01-2015, 02:26 PM
#16
Race Director
If modern science has proven Conventional flow theory is incorrect and Electron flow theory is correct, I haven't heard about it yet, so if you can provide a link to anything that supports the idea that a final determination has actually been made then I want to read it.
11-01-2015, 02:54 PM
#17
Race Director
No electrical power is pretty straightforward. I wouldn't pay for more than 1 labor hour without a flawless description of why things are taking so long.
11-01-2015, 03:09 PM
#18
Race Director
Hey Guys I am back again with the same problem. After my last post my problem came back. It broke down 3 weeks ago. I had it towed to another shop.
They said that they changed out the Battery and alternator. After I got it out and it drove just fine up until yesterday. I was at a business for 5 mins came out turned the key and the dash lights came on but the starter would not hit. I called AAA they came out to give it a jump. He hooked up a diagnostic machine and said nothing was wrong with it. I turned the key to show him and it started. On my way home it started missing I pulled into the Wal-mart. They said I would have to turn it off to check it. I told him if I turned it off It might not start. I did and it would not start. He ran a diagnostic and said the Battery was no good. I tried to start it and it did not turn over. The dash lights came on along the security light. I did not say anything about the security light before but it came on when the dash lights came on. I added a ground wire from the Neg post to part of the frame with no results. Should I take it back off?
I am going the air eraser mentioned by you.
Checking the fuses. When ya’ll talk about the fuses, wouldn’t they stay broken? I have never had a fuse go bad and back to good.
I am going to try cleaning that box behind the battery again.
Thanks Guys.
Could this be a dragging starter?
They said that they changed out the Battery and alternator. After I got it out and it drove just fine up until yesterday. I was at a business for 5 mins came out turned the key and the dash lights came on but the starter would not hit. I called AAA they came out to give it a jump. He hooked up a diagnostic machine and said nothing was wrong with it. I turned the key to show him and it started. On my way home it started missing I pulled into the Wal-mart. They said I would have to turn it off to check it. I told him if I turned it off It might not start. I did and it would not start. He ran a diagnostic and said the Battery was no good. I tried to start it and it did not turn over. The dash lights came on along the security light. I did not say anything about the security light before but it came on when the dash lights came on. I added a ground wire from the Neg post to part of the frame with no results. Should I take it back off?
I am going the air eraser mentioned by you.
Checking the fuses. When ya’ll talk about the fuses, wouldn’t they stay broken? I have never had a fuse go bad and back to good.
I am going to try cleaning that box behind the battery again.
Thanks Guys.
Could this be a dragging starter?
11-01-2015, 03:18 PM
#19
Drifting
If modern science has proven Conventional flow theory is incorrect and Electron flow theory is correct, I haven't heard about it yet, so if you can provide a link to anything that supports the idea that a final determination has actually been made then I want to read it.
http://www.physics4kids.com/files/elec_dc.html
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Amotoxracer (11-01-2015)
11-01-2015, 03:35 PM
#20
It almost sounds like you have two problems. One related to a no crank condition that exists even when you have normal electrical power inside the car, and then another no crank condition that exists, at times, where you don't have any battery power almost as though the battery is dead or is actually dead.
when you have dash lights might be your vats acting up do you have another key?also look at your pos battery cable some have reported it wearing a spot where it goes by the steering column.
Last edited by antfarmer2; 11-01-2015 at 03:39 PM.