Teach me about the c4 zr1
10-03-2015, 01:37 PM
#41
Melting Slicks
Just for the record...
Excluding tooling purchased for the job. my DIY "500" package came in at $3570, excluding tooling. "All in, it was $5700 including tooling and a replacement head (long story). Best money I ever spent!
Far as costs to beef up the C4 for big power, a dual disc clutch ≈ $1200 from RAM, and 31-spline spindles from Mark Williams Enterprises is ALL that has been needed for the 427 and 441 LT5s that AES built and Pete/Bob assembled to date. (Both items were developed for and installed/tested before being presented by semi-pro drag racer Bob Gillig at C4 gatherings in Bowling green.)
Excluding tooling purchased for the job. my DIY "500" package came in at $3570, excluding tooling. "All in, it was $5700 including tooling and a replacement head (long story). Best money I ever spent!
Far as costs to beef up the C4 for big power, a dual disc clutch ≈ $1200 from RAM, and 31-spline spindles from Mark Williams Enterprises is ALL that has been needed for the 427 and 441 LT5s that AES built and Pete/Bob assembled to date. (Both items were developed for and installed/tested before being presented by semi-pro drag racer Bob Gillig at C4 gatherings in Bowling green.)
10-03-2015, 02:52 PM
#42
Burning Brakes
But for the cost involved, is it really worth it?
Hell you could argue that in general for modding an LT-5, compared to any other platform, unless you do all the port work yourself.
It's not a bad engine, I don't want anyone to get me wrong there. Like I said, I want one, either a ZR-1, or just the engine as a display piece, because of the milestone it represents.
But when you make a BBC look cheap to mod by comparison, for a guy that mods his cars it's a steep proposition.
Hell you could argue that in general for modding an LT-5, compared to any other platform, unless you do all the port work yourself.
It's not a bad engine, I don't want anyone to get me wrong there. Like I said, I want one, either a ZR-1, or just the engine as a display piece, because of the milestone it represents.
But when you make a BBC look cheap to mod by comparison, for a guy that mods his cars it's a steep proposition.
The car isn't for everyone but the power out of a 500+ hp lt-5 makes you deal with the standard c4 issues and price tag.
Any way you go, hp cost money. A 405 hp C5 is $20k.
I would rather spend $13k on a ZR-1 and dump +$10k into it, have 500 to 550 hp than have a standard C5.
10-03-2015, 03:17 PM
#43
Melting Slicks
True indeed. Cams, heads, porting and exhaust to get 500 - 550 fwhp will cost between $5 to +$10k depending who does the work.
The car isn't for everyone but the power out of a 500+ hp lt-5 makes you deal with the standard c4 issues and price tag.
Any way you go, hp cost money. A 405 hp C5 is $20k.
I would rather spend $13k on a ZR-1 and dump +$10k into it, have 500 to 550 hp than have a standard C5.
The car isn't for everyone but the power out of a 500+ hp lt-5 makes you deal with the standard c4 issues and price tag.
Any way you go, hp cost money. A 405 hp C5 is $20k.
I would rather spend $13k on a ZR-1 and dump +$10k into it, have 500 to 550 hp than have a standard C5.
Which is why I'm a fan of LS swaps, BBCs, and boost for sbcs (Or LS's...once you get into the 10k budget range!). All of which can get you there into the 500s for less than 10k if you're smart about your builds.
It's a unique engine the LT-5. Unique also means $$$ though.
10-03-2015, 04:16 PM
#44
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Just for the record...
Excluding tooling purchased for the job. my DIY "500" package came in at $3570, excluding tooling. "All in, it was $5700 including tooling and a replacement head (long story). Best money I ever spent!
Far as costs to beef up the C4 for big power, a dual disc clutch ≈ $1200 from RAM, and 31-spline spindles from Mark Williams Enterprises is ALL that has been needed for the 427 and 441 LT5s that AES built and Pete/Bob assembled to date. (Both items were developed for and installed/tested before being presented by semi-pro drag racer Bob Gillig at C4 gatherings in Bowling green.)
Excluding tooling purchased for the job. my DIY "500" package came in at $3570, excluding tooling. "All in, it was $5700 including tooling and a replacement head (long story). Best money I ever spent!
Far as costs to beef up the C4 for big power, a dual disc clutch ≈ $1200 from RAM, and 31-spline spindles from Mark Williams Enterprises is ALL that has been needed for the 427 and 441 LT5s that AES built and Pete/Bob assembled to date. (Both items were developed for and installed/tested before being presented by semi-pro drag racer Bob Gillig at C4 gatherings in Bowling green.)
Awesome, that is kind of what I was looking for. Now do they sleeve the block to go to 441 or a different block?
10-03-2015, 11:58 PM
#45
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
Ayuh...that is what we here call...NOT STOCK. And an oxymoron if I ever saw one. "Stock...but of course modified" 
Ported heads are not stock. Are Lloyd Elliot or AE ported LT1 heads "stock"? No, they are not stock. LT5 lives by the same (albeit, more expensive) rules.
You didn't have to put out effort to be "much clearer"...you only needed to avoid making up misinformation.
Ported heads are not stock. Are Lloyd Elliot or AE ported LT1 heads "stock"? No, they are not stock. LT5 lives by the same (albeit, more expensive) rules. You didn't have to put out effort to be "much clearer"...you only needed to avoid making up misinformation.
10-04-2015, 04:18 AM
#46
Burning Brakes
Ayuh...that is what we here call...NOT STOCK. And an oxymoron if I ever saw one. "Stock...but of course modified" Ported heads are not stock. Are Lloyd Elliot or AE ported LT1 heads "stock"? No, they are not stock. LT5 lives by the same (albeit, more expensive) rules.
You didn't have to put out effort to be "much clearer"...you only needed to avoid making up misinformation.
Ported heads are not stock. Are Lloyd Elliot or AE ported LT1 heads "stock"? No, they are not stock. LT5 lives by the same (albeit, more expensive) rules. You didn't have to put out effort to be "much clearer"...you only needed to avoid making up misinformation.
Not stock? Is this an episode of pinks? Do you set the rules for this forum?
They are the stock heads but modified so technically the car has the same heads and cam(s) that came from the factory.
Tomato, tomoto however you want to call it.
I am not making up misinformation but do not feel like debating with you. Seems like you do not like the C4 ZR-1 which is fine with me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Last edited by pushrod-v8; 10-04-2015 at 01:46 PM.
10-04-2015, 06:01 AM
#48
Race Director
I had a many ZR-1s before my c5 Z06 and if I ever get another Z06 it wont be a c5. But it will be near my ZR-1.
10-04-2015, 11:26 AM
#49
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: South-central Missouri
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A stock block is machined to accept the CNC'ed, flanged sleeves. This method has significant potential for FI applications (borrowed from Honda FI applications, as I understand it).
The AES web page alludes to a $ tag around $8,500 for the machine work, and maybe pistons, but all-in with the top-end porting, forged stroker crank, etc, etc, it is closer to $22,000 plus (depending on variations and DIY work).
That seems like a lot, and it is. But, considering the engineering and development of any racing application project, it falls in line: go buy a Ktec or Lingenfelter prepped C6R 427 motor and stuff it in a C4 and see what one has to pay.
Like Mike 100 said, the big price breaking point is at the point when a billet stroker crank is required; at about the 400+ cubic inch demark. Below that point considerable and very reliable hp can be achieved with sleeves and the stock crank (or even of-set ground cranks).
Hot-rodding the LT5 isn't cheap: nobody ever said is was. It is not for everyone. But, for those that are intrigued with the distinctive (long), turbine-smooth torque delivery of the DOHC architecture (like no other 'peaky' OHV) and appreciate benefits of a hand assembled, precision balanced, race-built, no expense spared, and world-class winning piece of automotive history that never is found in a pickup truck or Camaro (but still found in winners circles), maybe this is the car for you.
Something else... That long torque curve and high rpm has interesting advantages you have to experience to appreciate, like holding a lower gear longer! Many a time a cocky LS driver spies a nice C4 and is spoiling for an easy "kill"... only to have this happen...
That is almost routine at a drag strip: The lower torque advantage/lighter weight gets the jump on the ZR-1 at first. "Hah!" But, then the LT5 starts stretching its legs and ...
Last edited by Paul Workman; 10-05-2015 at 08:37 AM.
10-04-2015, 01:44 PM
#50
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
Here is what I actually "do not like"; People making up false data, to suit their whims. For the record, that is what I do not like. You couldn't be more wrong about my opinion of the ZR-1.
10-04-2015, 01:55 PM
#52
Burning Brakes
Something else... That long torque curve and high rpm has interesting advantages you have to experience to appreciate, like holding a lower gear longer! Many a time a cocky LS driver spies a nice C4 and is spoiling for an easy "kill"... only to have this happen...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzPPEK9Qf3M
That is almost routine at a drag strip: The lower torque advantage/lighter weight gets the jump on the ZR-1 at first. "Hah!" But, then the LT5 starts stretching its legs and ...
10-04-2015, 01:57 PM
#53
Burning Brakes
That part...in the bold? That is precisely, what makes it "NOT STOCK".
Nope, no lie, but that is deception. More importantly, that is NOT what you said originally, that I called out. Let's keep this on track here; YOU said, "Stock 350 motors are making 550 hp". STOCK 350 motors are doing no such thing.
Ahhh, ASSumption time? Where did you come up w/that little "gem"? You'll have to quote where I said that, or anything remotely LIKE that, so that I can correct it. Can you please do that for me? Quote where I said that? Thanks.
Here is what I actually "do not like"; People making up false data, to suit their whims. For the record, that is what I do not like. You couldn't be more wrong about my opinion of the ZR-1.
Nope, no lie, but that is deception. More importantly, that is NOT what you said originally, that I called out. Let's keep this on track here; YOU said, "Stock 350 motors are making 550 hp". STOCK 350 motors are doing no such thing.
Ahhh, ASSumption time? Where did you come up w/that little "gem"? You'll have to quote where I said that, or anything remotely LIKE that, so that I can correct it. Can you please do that for me? Quote where I said that? Thanks.
Here is what I actually "do not like"; People making up false data, to suit their whims. For the record, that is what I do not like. You couldn't be more wrong about my opinion of the ZR-1.
And I will continue to say a stock 350 lt-5 can make and do make 500 - 550 hp.
10-04-2015, 02:06 PM
#54
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
Know that is continuing to mislead people who don't know, by creating misinformation. Stock is how the car came from GM. Did they come from GM w/ported heads, cam work, tuning, headers, and exhaust? No they did not. So cars that have that done, are not stock, and claiming they are stock, is lying. I could port my LT1 heads (could be any engine, not just and LT1), regrind the cam, install LTH/exhaust, tune the ECM, and probably make ~450hp, and start claiming that "Stock LT1's make 450hp". Would that be true? Would that be a legitimate representation of "Stock LT1's"? No, it most certainly would not be. It would be an outright lie.
Dizwiz on this forums has an LT1 w/a supercharger. He makes 550RWHP on a stock bottom end. Should he start claiming that "Stock LT1's make ~640hp"? Would that be true? Would that be a legitimate representation of "Stock LT1's"? I mean...he's using the "original crank and rods that came from GM, right? So surely, isn't that "stock"? No, it most certainly would not be. It would be an outright lie.
10-04-2015, 02:25 PM
#55
Burning Brakes
I could port my LT1 heads (could be any engine, not just and LT1), regrind the cam, install LTH/exhaust, tune the ECM, and probably make ~450hp, and start claiming that "Stock LT1's make 450hp". Would that be true? Would that be a legitimate representation of "Stock LT1's"? No, it most certainly would not be. It would be an outright lie. .
If you say I am a liar that's fine with me. I have a ZR-1 in my garage and you dont.
Bow down to the king buddy!
10-04-2015, 03:17 PM
#56
Team Owner
Pro Mechanic
port my LT1 heads (could be any engine, not just and LT1), regrind the cam, install LTH/exhaust, tune the ECM
No dismissive comments on the Supercharge "stock LT!" for your entertainment?Glad you feel that way. You call me out for "setting the rules", but these aren't "my rules"...words actually do have a meaning and purpose. That is why we use words, instead of grunts and gestures. The meaning or words is where you might ground yourself w/reality. Or try to, anyway.
Last edited by Tom400CFI; 10-04-2015 at 03:23 PM.
10-04-2015, 05:00 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
Comprehension is tough for you.
Reading. Try it. No dismissive comments on the Supercharge "stock LT!" for your entertainment?
Glad you feel that way. You call me out for "setting the rules", but these aren't "my rules"...words actually do have a meaning and purpose. That is why we use words, instead of grunts and gestures. The meaning or words is where you might ground yourself w/reality. Or try to, anyway.
Well, this is what it comes down to when you lose and argument, can't admit it and have the mentality of a 6th grader. I've seen "this one" before. Indeed, now I have several more words I'd use to describe you, besides liar. None too favorable. You really set a good example for the ZR-1 community!
Reading. Try it.
No dismissive comments on the Supercharge "stock LT!" for your entertainment?Glad you feel that way. You call me out for "setting the rules", but these aren't "my rules"...words actually do have a meaning and purpose. That is why we use words, instead of grunts and gestures. The meaning or words is where you might ground yourself w/reality. Or try to, anyway.
Well, this is what it comes down to when you lose and argument, can't admit it and have the mentality of a 6th grader. I've seen "this one" before. Indeed, now I have several more words I'd use to describe you, besides liar. None too favorable. You really set a good example for the ZR-1 community!
I guess in your typing your reply you missed me say "with all that done to an LT-1"
You will not make 450hp with ported LT1 heads, intake, headers, tune, and a reground factory LT-1 cam.
And the truth is you don't have a ZR-1 in your garage.
Now bow down to the King!
Last edited by pushrod-v8; 10-04-2015 at 05:05 PM.
10-04-2015, 05:09 PM
#59
Burning Brakes
Glad you feel that way. You call me out for "setting the rules", but these aren't "my rules"...words actually do have a meaning and purpose. That is why we use words, instead of grunts and gestures. The meaning or words is where you might ground yourself w/reality. Or try to, anyway.
(
(
Any reason you choose not to comment on the link I provided earlier regarding the abuse of "stock car" in NASCAR because we both know there is nothing about the car being stock.
They said its stock and say it every weekend NASCAR races.
Guess NASCAR lies too.
10-04-2015, 05:15 PM
#60
Burning Brakes
Glad you feel that way. You call me out for "setting the rules", but these aren't "my rules"...words actually do have a meaning and purpose. That is why we use words, instead of grunts and gestures. The meaning or words is where you might ground yourself w/reality. Or try to, anyway.
(
(
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...ctually-stock/