C4 pricing. Think about this first.
09-17-2016, 11:59 AM
#41
Racer
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=FOURSPEEDVETTE;1593075978]
Please stop making "sweeping generalizations and assumptions" about a few thousand 25 year old vehicles. He wanted each car addressed individually, listed by VIN number and categorized by condition and mileage with specific comments relative to each vehicle.
YOU GOT THAT?
I wanted to thank you and the OP for your entertaining read with its sweeping generalizations and assumptions.
Not quite sure what you meant by this statement.
What do you consider "sweeping generalizations and assumptions"? I don't see anything of the sort in my reply. Only facts on my lengthy selling and buying history with cars, including Corvettes, was implied in my statements.
Not quite sure what you meant by this statement.
What do you consider "sweeping generalizations and assumptions"? I don't see anything of the sort in my reply. Only facts on my lengthy selling and buying history with cars, including Corvettes, was implied in my statements.YOU GOT THAT?
09-17-2016, 02:12 PM
#43
Le Mans Master
C4 pricing is low right now. That makes them a great bang for the buck.
I have never bought cars as an investment (although I made money on many of them). The rate of return is usually not very good and is a big risk if it will even pay off, so they are usually not a good investment.
If the C4's go up in price I expect it will be enough years that I may not be around any more.
I have always liked driving performance/sports/muscle/etc. cars since I was 15. Over the years certain cars have changed in values. Many of the 60's/70's cars are too expensive now for what they are, and new cars are too expensive too (30k for an pretty basic to 60k to 100+k for a performance car).
To keep driving a fun car now, the best bang for the buck is the C4-C5 Corvette. Many of them are well kept, look/handle/accelerate/brake/mpg/etc. great all for well under half of a new car. I usually keep a car a few years and then get something different (with exceptions like my '85 Corvette I kept for over 25 years). So when I am looking for something fun to drive and compare the pricing on the C4 to other cars, what I am comparing them too are older/high mileage/rusting/abused/cars that I call "beaters". It makes if a no brainer to get the Corvette. C4's have been quite reliable too as opposed to many of the "beaters". I even got a couple C4's as daily drivers when I was doing a 100 mile per day commute.
In short, If you want something that you can have fun driving as well as events/shows/etc. without breaking the bank and losing a lot of depreciation, then a C4 is a great choice. I like some of the newer or more expensive cars too, but the smile I get from driving them is the same smile I get from driving a C4.
I also think the C4 is a a good balance point of having some of the good technology without going too far. I expect the C4 may be repairable for a long time, but I expect the newer cars will not be. The C5's are already parts shortages (EBCM, SWPS, etc). There are many of the "tech" features on the newer cars that I do not want, and when they break (which they will) it will either be expensive or unable to be fixed. I don't expect the newer cars to survive for a long time like the old cars can.
I can relate to those who sold cars a long time ago and those cars are valued higher now. I have had a bunch (about 70 cars including GTO's, 442's, SS Chevelles, Monte Carlo SS's, Impala SS's, Z28's, Formula Firebirds, Trans Ams, Charger R/T's, and quite a few others.) But to tell the truth, I think the C4's are better cars in most ways. They handle better, are quick or quicker with mods, better mpg, modern accessories, etc. So I miss the older cars and was glad I had them, but they are not the ones I enjoy driving the most.
my $0.02
I have never bought cars as an investment (although I made money on many of them). The rate of return is usually not very good and is a big risk if it will even pay off, so they are usually not a good investment.
If the C4's go up in price I expect it will be enough years that I may not be around any more.
I have always liked driving performance/sports/muscle/etc. cars since I was 15. Over the years certain cars have changed in values. Many of the 60's/70's cars are too expensive now for what they are, and new cars are too expensive too (30k for an pretty basic to 60k to 100+k for a performance car).
To keep driving a fun car now, the best bang for the buck is the C4-C5 Corvette. Many of them are well kept, look/handle/accelerate/brake/mpg/etc. great all for well under half of a new car. I usually keep a car a few years and then get something different (with exceptions like my '85 Corvette I kept for over 25 years). So when I am looking for something fun to drive and compare the pricing on the C4 to other cars, what I am comparing them too are older/high mileage/rusting/abused/cars that I call "beaters". It makes if a no brainer to get the Corvette. C4's have been quite reliable too as opposed to many of the "beaters". I even got a couple C4's as daily drivers when I was doing a 100 mile per day commute.
In short, If you want something that you can have fun driving as well as events/shows/etc. without breaking the bank and losing a lot of depreciation, then a C4 is a great choice. I like some of the newer or more expensive cars too, but the smile I get from driving them is the same smile I get from driving a C4.
I also think the C4 is a a good balance point of having some of the good technology without going too far. I expect the C4 may be repairable for a long time, but I expect the newer cars will not be. The C5's are already parts shortages (EBCM, SWPS, etc). There are many of the "tech" features on the newer cars that I do not want, and when they break (which they will) it will either be expensive or unable to be fixed. I don't expect the newer cars to survive for a long time like the old cars can.
I can relate to those who sold cars a long time ago and those cars are valued higher now. I have had a bunch (about 70 cars including GTO's, 442's, SS Chevelles, Monte Carlo SS's, Impala SS's, Z28's, Formula Firebirds, Trans Ams, Charger R/T's, and quite a few others.) But to tell the truth, I think the C4's are better cars in most ways. They handle better, are quick or quicker with mods, better mpg, modern accessories, etc. So I miss the older cars and was glad I had them, but they are not the ones I enjoy driving the most.
my $0.02
The following users liked this post:
95tealconvert (09-17-2016)
09-17-2016, 07:05 PM
#44
[QUOTE=FOURSPEEDVETTE;1593075978]
Here are a few examples of what I meant :
" Finally something worth reading about on C4 values! I agree that when someone posts here asking "whats my car worth" many of the same people here come in with some really low prices claiming that they are all worth next to nothing. "
What examples do you have of " many of the same people here come in with some really low prices claiming that they are all worth next to nothing " ?
" This forum is full of people who have never owned but one or two (special) cars. They then consider themselves experts on specialty car values. You have to know how to avoid those guys appraisals and do some homework of the car values in a professional arena. "
What makes you think you know what people make up this forum-what their history is with cars or that the forum is full of people who have never owned but one or two (special) cars, to make this kind of statement ? As far as I can tell when we are on the C4 forum we are talking about C4's but now according to you we consider ourselves experts on specialty car values?
Here are a few examples from the OP's original post :
" Sometimes I think this site is dedicated to lowering the price of Corvettes. "
Why would we as C4 enthusiasts dedicate ourselves to lowering the price of Corvettes ? This is simply silly logic that makes no sense. Let me see if I can follow your logic- I have money and time invested in a C4 Corvette so my goal is to lower my investment potential by coming on this forum and trying to drive down the price of C4's so mine will be worth less. Does that about sum it up or do I need more Coffee to comprehend what you are saying here ?
" I realize that after all these years some C4's are toast and some are still nice but overall the price quotes I see here are way to low. "
What facts do you have to present that overall the price quotes I see here are way to low ? From what I have seen on this forum the discussion of prices on the C4 follow very closely with what I see in the market.
I wanted to thank you and the OP for your entertaining read with its sweeping generalizations and assumptions.
Not quite sure what you meant by this statement. What do you consider "sweeping generalizations and assumptions"? I don't see anything of the sort in my reply. Only facts on my lengthy selling and buying history with cars, including Corvettes, was implied in my statements.
Not quite sure what you meant by this statement.
What do you consider "sweeping generalizations and assumptions"? I don't see anything of the sort in my reply. Only facts on my lengthy selling and buying history with cars, including Corvettes, was implied in my statements." Finally something worth reading about on C4 values! I agree that when someone posts here asking "whats my car worth" many of the same people here come in with some really low prices claiming that they are all worth next to nothing. "
What examples do you have of " many of the same people here come in with some really low prices claiming that they are all worth next to nothing " ?
" This forum is full of people who have never owned but one or two (special) cars. They then consider themselves experts on specialty car values. You have to know how to avoid those guys appraisals and do some homework of the car values in a professional arena. "
What makes you think you know what people make up this forum-what their history is with cars or that the forum is full of people who have never owned but one or two (special) cars, to make this kind of statement ? As far as I can tell when we are on the C4 forum we are talking about C4's but now according to you we consider ourselves experts on specialty car values?
Here are a few examples from the OP's original post :
" Sometimes I think this site is dedicated to lowering the price of Corvettes. "
Why would we as C4 enthusiasts dedicate ourselves to lowering the price of Corvettes ? This is simply silly logic that makes no sense. Let me see if I can follow your logic- I have money and time invested in a C4 Corvette so my goal is to lower my investment potential by coming on this forum and trying to drive down the price of C4's so mine will be worth less. Does that about sum it up or do I need more Coffee to comprehend what you are saying here ?
" I realize that after all these years some C4's are toast and some are still nice but overall the price quotes I see here are way to low. "
What facts do you have to present that overall the price quotes I see here are way to low ? From what I have seen on this forum the discussion of prices on the C4 follow very closely with what I see in the market.
09-17-2016, 08:32 PM
#46
Race Director
That Sir, is incorrect.
IIRC
In 1970 the auto industry switched from gross horsepower ratings to brake horsepower ratings. The same 300hp engine in 1969 dropped to 200 in 1970.
With the old hp rating they applied a brake to the flywheel of a bare engine at full throttle to measure.
With the bhp rating the power was measured at the rear wheels. The engine had the water pump, alternator, fans, emission crap etc. as it came from the factory and the power lost through the drivetrain became part of the equation. There is very significant difference.
I recall reading that the old 450hp ratings of yesterdays big block engines would be less than 300 if measured in bhp today.
Please define "half the power" because its certainly not in performance. Talking completely stock. The quarter mile figure for 245hp C4 is around 14.5. The base '67 427 would run about 13.5. in a straight line. The 427 was quicker but a C4 has far superior handling characteristics and will run away from it on a closed course. So which is faster becomes a matter of opinion.
I don't know what condition your C4 was in when you had it restored but mine is very low mileage and in mint condition. I'm sure I could drop it off at Jeg's and for under 10k they could make it run as good or better than any current production Corvettes. I don't do any racing and I am quite satisfied with its performance. If you purchased a mint C4 for 20k and put half the difference in the price of a new C7 into it I'm pretty sure it would be crazy fast.
I was not talking about a frame off restoration like you see on TV. There are enough of them in good condition that something like that would not be necessary unless that particular car had some special nostalgic meaning to you.
IIRC
In 1970 the auto industry switched from gross horsepower ratings to brake horsepower ratings. The same 300hp engine in 1969 dropped to 200 in 1970.
With the old hp rating they applied a brake to the flywheel of a bare engine at full throttle to measure.
With the bhp rating the power was measured at the rear wheels. The engine had the water pump, alternator, fans, emission crap etc. as it came from the factory and the power lost through the drivetrain became part of the equation. There is very significant difference.
I recall reading that the old 450hp ratings of yesterdays big block engines would be less than 300 if measured in bhp today.
Please define "half the power" because its certainly not in performance. Talking completely stock. The quarter mile figure for 245hp C4 is around 14.5. The base '67 427 would run about 13.5. in a straight line. The 427 was quicker but a C4 has far superior handling characteristics and will run away from it on a closed course. So which is faster becomes a matter of opinion.
I don't know what condition your C4 was in when you had it restored but mine is very low mileage and in mint condition. I'm sure I could drop it off at Jeg's and for under 10k they could make it run as good or better than any current production Corvettes. I don't do any racing and I am quite satisfied with its performance. If you purchased a mint C4 for 20k and put half the difference in the price of a new C7 into it I'm pretty sure it would be crazy fast.
I was not talking about a frame off restoration like you see on TV. There are enough of them in good condition that something like that would not be necessary unless that particular car had some special nostalgic meaning to you.
You are also incorrect. Modern HP is not measured at the rear wheels. I know about the change in ratings that came in 72....but there is still some "allure" in owning an ADVERTISED 400+hp sportscar.
In both eras (before/after 1972), HP is measured at the flywheel. In both eras, you still need to measure to see what's actually at the rear wheels. After 72, manufacturers had to measure with intakes, exhaust, and accessories....on an engine dyno...at the flywheel.
While 400hp engines of the 60's might only be 300hp, the early C4's are only 200rwhp. Later ones are around 250rwhp. There is still a difference AND you still MIGHT need to deal with emissions/smog equipment for areas like California.
My point was about production numbers, how HP dropped in the 80's, and didn't really return until the generation AFTER the C4. (Of course there are exceptions like the ZR1. Since that car has it's own engine, it might be interesting to see what prices/support it will see.
I bent over backwards to modernize mine. I also tried to keep the nostalgia of sidepipes. I added 100rwhp to bring my L98 up to the level of those 60's 427's...AND...the cars that have come afterward.
I (at least) know what my stock L98 was. I couldn't pull away from a modern "300hp" Acura on the hwy. I could beat it "off the line", but it wasn't much more than a well-handling "cripple" of the 60's generation. It wasn't THAT much different than a 21st century family car....in terms of acceleration.
There is some realism here. I would also add that the C5 was the first generation that added a "trunk". C4's can be limiting in what you haul. There are practical limitations I didn't cover...especially when talking about convertibles. All of these things affect the market.
One last thing....I've driven several C3's and C4's. in this "century". Most of them are "rattle traps". Even in that regard, I think they leave a negative impression. One of the biggest things I like about my interior restoration is how much more solid/quiet it is on the interior. That alone subtracts years from it's perceived age.
If I ever bought another C4, I'd probably only consider an LTx or even ZR1....though I clearly know an L98 TONS better. And, yes, I'd WANT a ZF6...which is also a problem-child. I bought one of the last ZF6 DMFW setups in 2009. Because that component was discontinued, I'd probably "settle" for an automatic....or just hold out for a C6.
Last edited by GREGGPENN; 09-17-2016 at 08:34 PM.
09-18-2016, 02:08 AM
#47
That Sir, is incorrect.
IIRC
In 1970 the auto industry switched from gross horsepower ratings to brake horsepower ratings. The same 300hp engine in 1969 dropped to 200 in 1970.
With the old hp rating they applied a brake to the flywheel of a bare engine at full throttle to measure.
With the bhp rating the power was measured at the rear wheels. The engine had the water pump, alternator, fans, emission crap etc. as it came from the factory and the power lost through the drivetrain became part of the equation. There is very significant difference.
I recall reading that the old 450hp ratings of yesterdays big block engines would be less than 300 if measured in bhp today.
Please define "half the power" because its certainly not in performance. Talking completely stock. The quarter mile figure for 245hp C4 is around 14.5. The base '67 427 would run about 13.5. in a straight line. The 427 was quicker but a C4 has far superior handling characteristics and will run away from it on a closed course. So which is faster becomes a matter of opinion.
I don't know what condition your C4 was in when you had it restored but mine is very low mileage and in mint condition. I'm sure I could drop it off at Jeg's and for under 10k they could make it run as good or better than any current production Corvettes. I don't do any racing and I am quite satisfied with its performance. If you purchased a mint C4 for 20k and put half the difference in the price of a new C7 into it I'm pretty sure it would be crazy fast.
I was not talking about a frame off restoration like you see on TV. There are enough of them in good condition that something like that would not be necessary unless that particular car had some special nostalgic meaning to you.
IIRC
In 1970 the auto industry switched from gross horsepower ratings to brake horsepower ratings. The same 300hp engine in 1969 dropped to 200 in 1970.
With the old hp rating they applied a brake to the flywheel of a bare engine at full throttle to measure.
With the bhp rating the power was measured at the rear wheels. The engine had the water pump, alternator, fans, emission crap etc. as it came from the factory and the power lost through the drivetrain became part of the equation. There is very significant difference.
I recall reading that the old 450hp ratings of yesterdays big block engines would be less than 300 if measured in bhp today.
Please define "half the power" because its certainly not in performance. Talking completely stock. The quarter mile figure for 245hp C4 is around 14.5. The base '67 427 would run about 13.5. in a straight line. The 427 was quicker but a C4 has far superior handling characteristics and will run away from it on a closed course. So which is faster becomes a matter of opinion.
I don't know what condition your C4 was in when you had it restored but mine is very low mileage and in mint condition. I'm sure I could drop it off at Jeg's and for under 10k they could make it run as good or better than any current production Corvettes. I don't do any racing and I am quite satisfied with its performance. If you purchased a mint C4 for 20k and put half the difference in the price of a new C7 into it I'm pretty sure it would be crazy fast.
I was not talking about a frame off restoration like you see on TV. There are enough of them in good condition that something like that would not be necessary unless that particular car had some special nostalgic meaning to you.
1. The 300HP engines in 1969 did not drop to 200HP in 1970. The rating change happened in 1971 when GM released both sets of numbers. There was more happening than just the change from SAE Gross to SAE net. Compression ratios also changed from 1970 to 1971. In reality, the 300HP Gross number was closer to about 240 in Net terms. Consider that the LT1 engine in 1970 was rated at 370 Gross HP. The following year when compression dropped, the same Gross rating was 330HP - a full 40 HP less. That 330HP number was 270HP Net for about a 60HP difference.
2. The 450HP cars would be rated far higher than 300HP today if rated SAE net. The 425HP 71 LS6 was rated at 325HP Net rating. But the LS6 was strangled by its exhaust system in those years. The earlier C2 big blocks didn't have the C3 restricted exhaust so their Gross to Net numbers would be a smaller reduction. Also, the big blocks of the 1960s were significantly UNDER-rated even in the gross ratings because of the insurance industry. I would estimate the real power output of the solid lifter 435HP 67 at about 385 Net HP.
3. Why would I suggest a higher rating than your 300 estimate? - because I own both a 67 435HP coupe and a 1995 405HP ZR-1. I can say that both cars when driven hard deliver very fast acceleration - even by today's standards. Note that the original owner of my 67 drove the car to a 12.9 second quarter mile (I have the documentation) when completely stock - including tires.
Last edited by bb62; 09-18-2016 at 02:09 AM.
09-18-2016, 09:48 AM
#48
Safety Car
[QUOTE=95tealconvert;1593078472]
Here are a few examples of what I meant :
" Finally something worth reading about on C4 values! I agree that when someone posts here asking "whats my car worth" many of the same people here come in with some really low prices claiming that they are all worth next to nothing. "
What examples do you have of " many of the same people here come in with some really low prices claiming that they are all worth next to nothing " ?
" This forum is full of people who have never owned but one or two (special) cars. They then consider themselves experts on specialty car values. You have to know how to avoid those guys appraisals and do some homework of the car values in a professional arena. "
What makes you think you know what people make up this forum-what their history is with cars or that the forum is full of people who have never owned but one or two (special) cars, to make this kind of statement ? As far as I can tell when we are on the C4 forum we are talking about C4's but now according to you we consider ourselves experts on specialty car values?
Here are a few examples from the OP's original post :
" Sometimes I think this site is dedicated to lowering the price of Corvettes. "
Why would we as C4 enthusiasts dedicate ourselves to lowering the price of Corvettes ? This is simply silly logic that makes no sense. Let me see if I can follow your logic- I have money and time invested in a C4 Corvette so my goal is to lower my investment potential by coming on this forum and trying to drive down the price of C4's so mine will be worth less. Does that about sum it up or do I need more Coffee to comprehend what you are saying here ?
" I realize that after all these years some C4's are toast and some are still nice but overall the price quotes I see here are way to low. "
What facts do you have to present that overall the price quotes I see here are way to low ? From what I have seen on this forum the discussion of prices on the C4 follow very closely with what I see in the market.
Well I'll put it this way. I've been on this forum for almost 10 years with 3511 posts. You've been here for 1 year with 255 posts. Do the math. I've seen it all here. You have a LONG way to go. And, yes many of the same people do come here (in your own words) with sweeping generalizations and assumptions. I won't call them out here as I think most intellegent people here recognize who they are. My comments here reflect my own personal experience with Corvettes. It's a shame I have to defend myself on something so ridiculous.
Here are a few examples of what I meant :
" Finally something worth reading about on C4 values! I agree that when someone posts here asking "whats my car worth" many of the same people here come in with some really low prices claiming that they are all worth next to nothing. "
What examples do you have of " many of the same people here come in with some really low prices claiming that they are all worth next to nothing " ?
" This forum is full of people who have never owned but one or two (special) cars. They then consider themselves experts on specialty car values. You have to know how to avoid those guys appraisals and do some homework of the car values in a professional arena. "
What makes you think you know what people make up this forum-what their history is with cars or that the forum is full of people who have never owned but one or two (special) cars, to make this kind of statement ? As far as I can tell when we are on the C4 forum we are talking about C4's but now according to you we consider ourselves experts on specialty car values?
Here are a few examples from the OP's original post :
" Sometimes I think this site is dedicated to lowering the price of Corvettes. "
Why would we as C4 enthusiasts dedicate ourselves to lowering the price of Corvettes ? This is simply silly logic that makes no sense. Let me see if I can follow your logic- I have money and time invested in a C4 Corvette so my goal is to lower my investment potential by coming on this forum and trying to drive down the price of C4's so mine will be worth less. Does that about sum it up or do I need more Coffee to comprehend what you are saying here ?
" I realize that after all these years some C4's are toast and some are still nice but overall the price quotes I see here are way to low. "
What facts do you have to present that overall the price quotes I see here are way to low ? From what I have seen on this forum the discussion of prices on the C4 follow very closely with what I see in the market.
09-18-2016, 10:57 AM
#49
Racer
Thread Starter
You are also incorrect. Modern HP is not measured at the rear wheels. I know about the change in ratings that came in 72....but there is still some "allure" in owning an ADVERTISED 400+hp sportscar.
In both eras (before/after 1972), HP is measured at the flywheel. In both eras, you still need to measure to see what's actually at the rear wheels. After 72, manufacturers had to measure with intakes, exhaust, and accessories....on an engine dyno...at the flywheel.
While 400hp engines of the 60's might only be 300hp, the early C4's are only 200rwhp. Later ones are around 250rwhp. There is still a difference AND you still MIGHT need to deal with emissions/smog equipment for areas like California.
My point was about production numbers, how HP dropped in the 80's, and didn't really return until the generation AFTER the C4. (Of course there are exceptions like the ZR1. Since that car has it's own engine, it might be interesting to see what prices/support it will see.
I bent over backwards to modernize mine. I also tried to keep the nostalgia of sidepipes. I added 100rwhp to bring my L98 up to the level of those 60's 427's...AND...the cars that have come afterward.
I (at least) know what my stock L98 was. I couldn't pull away from a modern "300hp" Acura on the hwy. I could beat it "off the line", but it wasn't much more than a well-handling "cripple" of the 60's generation. It wasn't THAT much different than a 21st century family car....in terms of acceleration.
There is some realism here. I would also add that the C5 was the first generation that added a "trunk". C4's can be limiting in what you haul. There are practical limitations I didn't cover...especially when talking about convertibles. All of these things affect the market.
One last thing....I've driven several C3's and C4's. in this "century". Most of them are "rattle traps". Even in that regard, I think they leave a negative impression. One of the biggest things I like about my interior restoration is how much more solid/quiet it is on the interior. That alone subtracts years from it's perceived age.
If I ever bought another C4, I'd probably only consider an LTx or even ZR1....though I clearly know an L98 TONS better. And, yes, I'd WANT a ZF6...which is also a problem-child. I bought one of the last ZF6 DMFW setups in 2009. Because that component was discontinued, I'd probably "settle" for an automatic....or just hold out for a C6.
In both eras (before/after 1972), HP is measured at the flywheel. In both eras, you still need to measure to see what's actually at the rear wheels. After 72, manufacturers had to measure with intakes, exhaust, and accessories....on an engine dyno...at the flywheel.
While 400hp engines of the 60's might only be 300hp, the early C4's are only 200rwhp. Later ones are around 250rwhp. There is still a difference AND you still MIGHT need to deal with emissions/smog equipment for areas like California.
My point was about production numbers, how HP dropped in the 80's, and didn't really return until the generation AFTER the C4. (Of course there are exceptions like the ZR1. Since that car has it's own engine, it might be interesting to see what prices/support it will see.
I bent over backwards to modernize mine. I also tried to keep the nostalgia of sidepipes. I added 100rwhp to bring my L98 up to the level of those 60's 427's...AND...the cars that have come afterward.
I (at least) know what my stock L98 was. I couldn't pull away from a modern "300hp" Acura on the hwy. I could beat it "off the line", but it wasn't much more than a well-handling "cripple" of the 60's generation. It wasn't THAT much different than a 21st century family car....in terms of acceleration.
There is some realism here. I would also add that the C5 was the first generation that added a "trunk". C4's can be limiting in what you haul. There are practical limitations I didn't cover...especially when talking about convertibles. All of these things affect the market.
One last thing....I've driven several C3's and C4's. in this "century". Most of them are "rattle traps". Even in that regard, I think they leave a negative impression. One of the biggest things I like about my interior restoration is how much more solid/quiet it is on the interior. That alone subtracts years from it's perceived age.
If I ever bought another C4, I'd probably only consider an LTx or even ZR1....though I clearly know an L98 TONS better. And, yes, I'd WANT a ZF6...which is also a problem-child. I bought one of the last ZF6 DMFW setups in 2009. Because that component was discontinued, I'd probably "settle" for an automatic....or just hold out for a C6.
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid.../13/Horsepower
And yea, an Acura might have beat you off the light but where will it be when you hit 160?
Last edited by CCRed; 09-18-2016 at 10:59 AM.
09-18-2016, 11:41 AM
#50
Racer
Thread Starter
Some misconceptions here:
1. The 300HP engines in 1969 did not drop to 200HP in 1970. The rating change happened in 1971 when GM released both sets of numbers. There was more happening than just the change from SAE Gross to SAE net. Compression ratios also changed from 1970 to 1971. In reality, the 300HP Gross number was closer to about 240 in Net terms. Consider that the LT1 engine in 1970 was rated at 370 Gross HP. The following year when compression dropped, the same Gross rating was 330HP - a full 40 HP less. That 330HP number was 270HP Net for about a 60HP difference.
2. The 450HP cars would be rated far higher than 300HP today if rated SAE net. The 425HP 71 LS6 was rated at 325HP Net rating. But the LS6 was strangled by its exhaust system in those years. The earlier C2 big blocks didn't have the C3 restricted exhaust so their Gross to Net numbers would be a smaller reduction. Also, the big blocks of the 1960s were significantly UNDER-rated even in the gross ratings because of the insurance industry. I would estimate the real power output of the solid lifter 435HP 67 at about 385 Net HP.
3. Why would I suggest a higher rating than your 300 estimate? - because I own both a 67 435HP coupe and a 1995 405HP ZR-1. I can say that both cars when driven hard deliver very fast acceleration - even by today's standards. Note that the original owner of my 67 drove the car to a 12.9 second quarter mile (I have the documentation) when completely stock - including tires.
1. The 300HP engines in 1969 did not drop to 200HP in 1970. The rating change happened in 1971 when GM released both sets of numbers. There was more happening than just the change from SAE Gross to SAE net. Compression ratios also changed from 1970 to 1971. In reality, the 300HP Gross number was closer to about 240 in Net terms. Consider that the LT1 engine in 1970 was rated at 370 Gross HP. The following year when compression dropped, the same Gross rating was 330HP - a full 40 HP less. That 330HP number was 270HP Net for about a 60HP difference.
2. The 450HP cars would be rated far higher than 300HP today if rated SAE net. The 425HP 71 LS6 was rated at 325HP Net rating. But the LS6 was strangled by its exhaust system in those years. The earlier C2 big blocks didn't have the C3 restricted exhaust so their Gross to Net numbers would be a smaller reduction. Also, the big blocks of the 1960s were significantly UNDER-rated even in the gross ratings because of the insurance industry. I would estimate the real power output of the solid lifter 435HP 67 at about 385 Net HP.
3. Why would I suggest a higher rating than your 300 estimate? - because I own both a 67 435HP coupe and a 1995 405HP ZR-1. I can say that both cars when driven hard deliver very fast acceleration - even by today's standards. Note that the original owner of my 67 drove the car to a 12.9 second quarter mile (I have the documentation) when completely stock - including tires.
I have also seen in many of the car magazines that the C4 was "conservatively rated" at 245bhp and I have to believe that. Mine (auto) can easily bark the tires shifting into second and drift out out of control quick doing that. It can also hit at least 157.
It seems it would take more than 245bhp to do that. Does anyone know of a actual dynamometer test on a stock C4? This HP discussion should probably be in a separate thread for those who are interested in that subject.
09-18-2016, 04:19 PM
#51
OP, you are right about value. So is Brandon.
time. interest rates. attrition. demographics. replacement parts.
so many things affect both the depreciation curve and the demand curve. time is what links both of your opinions as both being right.
C4's at at the bottom of the depreciation curve the demand curve is actually increasing as the baby boom echo (my gen, im 39) starts to have the mid life crisis and we pick up cars that were on our walls as kids.
like in the new show "Stranger things"!!
(which, I noticed that they had a "Late c4" on the wall....tisk tisk...show is set in 83 and that should have been a poster of the 84 corvette not a late model!)
but OP, why so worked up about it?
Brandon, your experience is biased because you know what its like to try and bring a real dog back to life. You might as well have paid 7k for a clean high mileage car. This is how you get the cheap ones, and the expensive ones on the market at the same time.
I see c4's here go for 15k. they are mint and low mileage. Cheapest around me is 2500 and its moldy inside.
So...you are both right at the same time............... in my opinion.
I like this discussion because of where the C4's are in their curve. Pay a fair price for a c4 today, do nothing to it, and it will be very hard to lose money. just to be clear, i am not saying these are "investment grade". they are not!! But I can almost gaurantee you that your 4K corvette c4, that runs and drives, isn't going to go to 2k ! its not an investment.....its an asset that has finished 'going lower'. sort of like the price of oil right now. the tide is rising due to the curve. I lauge when i see a new vette for 100k up here in canada...and people think that 4k c4's are going to go lower....not going to happen.....and i havn't even gotten into the armount of M1 and M2 money that has been pumped into the marketplace. Its virtually impossible for the C4 to go lower from here...again clarifying that i am talkigna bout run of the mill z51 and lower cars. not the ce and pace cars that do not hold improvements over the other models. those will still come down. likely, and unfortunately, the zr1 c4 will fall a bit as well. but will you ever find the zr1 at 10k that runs and drives and doesn't need a bunch of work? i doubt it. When the crappiest of metal cameros from the early 70's and very early 80's are going for 10 k already, no way that the zr1 will get there. time....time is the factor!
Love these cars and love this forum!
time. interest rates. attrition. demographics. replacement parts.
so many things affect both the depreciation curve and the demand curve. time is what links both of your opinions as both being right.
C4's at at the bottom of the depreciation curve the demand curve is actually increasing as the baby boom echo (my gen, im 39) starts to have the mid life crisis and we pick up cars that were on our walls as kids.
like in the new show "Stranger things"!!
(which, I noticed that they had a "Late c4" on the wall....tisk tisk...show is set in 83 and that should have been a poster of the 84 corvette not a late model!)
but OP, why so worked up about it?
Brandon, your experience is biased because you know what its like to try and bring a real dog back to life. You might as well have paid 7k for a clean high mileage car. This is how you get the cheap ones, and the expensive ones on the market at the same time.
I see c4's here go for 15k. they are mint and low mileage. Cheapest around me is 2500 and its moldy inside.
So...you are both right at the same time............... in my opinion.
I like this discussion because of where the C4's are in their curve. Pay a fair price for a c4 today, do nothing to it, and it will be very hard to lose money. just to be clear, i am not saying these are "investment grade". they are not!! But I can almost gaurantee you that your 4K corvette c4, that runs and drives, isn't going to go to 2k ! its not an investment.....its an asset that has finished 'going lower'. sort of like the price of oil right now. the tide is rising due to the curve. I lauge when i see a new vette for 100k up here in canada...and people think that 4k c4's are going to go lower....not going to happen.....and i havn't even gotten into the armount of M1 and M2 money that has been pumped into the marketplace. Its virtually impossible for the C4 to go lower from here...again clarifying that i am talkigna bout run of the mill z51 and lower cars. not the ce and pace cars that do not hold improvements over the other models. those will still come down. likely, and unfortunately, the zr1 c4 will fall a bit as well. but will you ever find the zr1 at 10k that runs and drives and doesn't need a bunch of work? i doubt it. When the crappiest of metal cameros from the early 70's and very early 80's are going for 10 k already, no way that the zr1 will get there. time....time is the factor!
Love these cars and love this forum!
**CAUTION** RANT WARNING 
Sometimes I think this site is dedicated to lowering the price of Corvettes. I suspect some of the regulars who always seem to chime in on most of the pricing threads are dealers looking for a steal. I realize that after all these years some C4's are toast and some are still nice but overall the price quotes I see here are way to low.
When it comes to used car pricing I say KBB and the other valuation sites are **** and most of their pricing is driven by insurance companies and car dealers. They are good for common vehicle pricing but Corvettes are not common.
And here is why......
Consider the number of Corvettes produced vs the human population. They are not what you could consider plentiful and actually pretty rare.
They are fiberglass and they don't rust. You can pay a lot of money to have a metal car restored and watch it start to rust again. Great.
The average price for a new car these days is over $30,000.00 dollars. The price of a new Corvette is $60,000.00 to over $100,000.00 Anything decent that runs these days can bring 5k pretty easy. Any decent Corvette out there should be worth at least 15k or 1/4 the price of a new one. You can pay 15k and more for a zero turn mower or a ATV these days!
I would pay 20k for a nice low milage C4 any day before I would pay that price for a new Kia or Hyundai for Gods sake.
The C4 is still a very formidable vehicle compared to over 90% of the vehicles produced today. It can still corner at the 1G mark, it can hit the legal speed limit on a cloverleaf easily and the top speed is more than enough to out run most anything.
They get great milage. They don't work hard even driving vigorously. At the legal speed limit the engine is only running a little over a cold idle. You can't really run one hard a lot on the street unless you have a damn good lawyer.
INSURANCE - Some C4's qualify for classic car insurance now. If you have a decent driving record and the car is in good shape you can get a stated value policy of around 20k for under $200.00 a year.
PERFORMANCE - If you need more you can bump a C4 up to current levels (or more) for a lot less than the price of a newer Corvette even if you pay to have it done professionally. And that includes the price of the car. Have it painted, get the interior done if it needs it and still be lower or around the the price of the average new car. Then you have something special. They still turn heads.
MAINTENANCE - The tilting hood makes the C4 one of the easiest Corvettes to work on ever. Try working on a newer one if you don't believe it.
Having been around a while I can remember seeing used 427 Stingrays and split windows selling for around 2k. As they get older kids start getting hold of them and finish them off. The ones that survive spike in price tremendously once the realization hits that not many are left. Supply and demand. There are plenty of people out there who collect and enjoy older cars and its undoubtably desirable to have something unique. Which one of you here will not turn and look when you see a '63 split window or a decent old C1, C2 or C3?
The C4's time is coming soon..... Mark my words.
I had a friend back in the 70's that sold his mint '67 427 Stingray for $2,500.00 and it has haunted him ever since. That was about a average price then. It could easily bring 100k now but it was totaled pretty quick by the kid who bought it. He can't have a conversation without someone bringing it up and reminding him about it.
Remember how bad you wanted a Corvette? They are plenty of people out there who still want one.
Will you make the same mistake?
Sometimes I think this site is dedicated to lowering the price of Corvettes. I suspect some of the regulars who always seem to chime in on most of the pricing threads are dealers looking for a steal. I realize that after all these years some C4's are toast and some are still nice but overall the price quotes I see here are way to low.
When it comes to used car pricing I say KBB and the other valuation sites are **** and most of their pricing is driven by insurance companies and car dealers. They are good for common vehicle pricing but Corvettes are not common.
And here is why......
Consider the number of Corvettes produced vs the human population. They are not what you could consider plentiful and actually pretty rare.
They are fiberglass and they don't rust. You can pay a lot of money to have a metal car restored and watch it start to rust again. Great.
The average price for a new car these days is over $30,000.00 dollars. The price of a new Corvette is $60,000.00 to over $100,000.00 Anything decent that runs these days can bring 5k pretty easy. Any decent Corvette out there should be worth at least 15k or 1/4 the price of a new one. You can pay 15k and more for a zero turn mower or a ATV these days!
I would pay 20k for a nice low milage C4 any day before I would pay that price for a new Kia or Hyundai for Gods sake.
The C4 is still a very formidable vehicle compared to over 90% of the vehicles produced today. It can still corner at the 1G mark, it can hit the legal speed limit on a cloverleaf easily and the top speed is more than enough to out run most anything.
They get great milage. They don't work hard even driving vigorously. At the legal speed limit the engine is only running a little over a cold idle. You can't really run one hard a lot on the street unless you have a damn good lawyer.
INSURANCE - Some C4's qualify for classic car insurance now. If you have a decent driving record and the car is in good shape you can get a stated value policy of around 20k for under $200.00 a year.
PERFORMANCE - If you need more you can bump a C4 up to current levels (or more) for a lot less than the price of a newer Corvette even if you pay to have it done professionally. And that includes the price of the car. Have it painted, get the interior done if it needs it and still be lower or around the the price of the average new car. Then you have something special. They still turn heads.
MAINTENANCE - The tilting hood makes the C4 one of the easiest Corvettes to work on ever. Try working on a newer one if you don't believe it.
Having been around a while I can remember seeing used 427 Stingrays and split windows selling for around 2k. As they get older kids start getting hold of them and finish them off. The ones that survive spike in price tremendously once the realization hits that not many are left. Supply and demand. There are plenty of people out there who collect and enjoy older cars and its undoubtably desirable to have something unique. Which one of you here will not turn and look when you see a '63 split window or a decent old C1, C2 or C3?
The C4's time is coming soon..... Mark my words.
I had a friend back in the 70's that sold his mint '67 427 Stingray for $2,500.00 and it has haunted him ever since. That was about a average price then. It could easily bring 100k now but it was totaled pretty quick by the kid who bought it. He can't have a conversation without someone bringing it up and reminding him about it.
Remember how bad you wanted a Corvette? They are plenty of people out there who still want one.
Will you make the same mistake?
Last edited by VikingTrad3r; 09-18-2016 at 04:28 PM.
09-18-2016, 04:41 PM
#52
Race Director
Member Since: Jul 2007
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
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2020 C3 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2019 C3 of Year Finalist (stock)
Anything is only worth what some one is willing to pay for it. C4's are no different. Until these things become more desirable they will struggle, especially with C5's getting so cheap. the dropping prices on C5's will keep C4 prices down, not a knock on C4's.
09-18-2016, 05:21 PM
#53
Melting Slicks
im a new C4 owner and just posted my 1st thread the other day titled new c4. i got a practically brand new 94 coupe with 14k miles. yes the prices are in the basement for them right now, i paid 13k dollars for it. being a buyer im thrilled you can get such a beautiful car for that kind of money. i guess when i sell it i will feel different but the most i can lose on my car is 13k dollars plus whatever i put into it. i had a 72 BB coupe that i lost 5 grand on 2 years later. i learned long ago if your looking for an investment these cars are not the way to go unless you have a chrystal ball.
09-18-2016, 05:27 PM
#54
Race Director
I did not make reference to any specific engine. There are different ways to measure horsepower and that was my point. Here is a interesting read on the subject of the old ratings if anyone cares.
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid.../13/Horsepower
And yea, an Acura might have beat you off the light but where will it be when you hit 160?
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid.../13/Horsepower
And yea, an Acura might have beat you off the light but where will it be when you hit 160?
Ironically, I almost posted the exact same link when you challenged what "mid-year" horsepower really was.
Of the earlier models, the "mid-year" wins in terms of styling and HP. Then gas shortage/emissions almost killed the Corvette. It's reasonable to say the C4 was the start of a new era...particularly when you are talking about handling and...what you could get in the earlier stages of emissions control.
"Mid-Year" Corvettes represent the height of pre-emissions, no gasoline worries, and an abandon for everything. Now we are looking at a new world of challenges. If the C4 fits into a category of fossil-fuel powered sports cars AFTER we swap to "alternative fuels"/electricity, will people see it as highly desirable/collectible? Mid-years and Shark styling seemed more "bold" for the time. Maybe more desirable because if that? C4's are somewhat more understated...and probably, less different than 80's TransAm, Camaros, etc...
What IS going to make L98's/LT1's standout in the crowd of collectible sportscars?
Calloway and ZR1's stand out as a return to POWER. They also have the lower specimen count of the 60's cars. Grandsports and LT4's might qualify too.
I'm certainly NOT against the C4 becoming collectible...I'm just waiting for points that make "us" think people will flock to the "base model" C4's someday?
I think the biggest point that didn't make sense is the comparison of $100k C3's to where a C4 might appreciate....and implying that most C4's owners could be risking something big by not holding onto it for the big skyrocket in value.
Last edited by GREGGPENN; 09-18-2016 at 05:33 PM.
09-18-2016, 05:42 PM
#55
Race Director
im a new C4 owner and just posted my 1st thread the other day titled new c4. i got a practically brand new 94 coupe with 14k miles. yes the prices are in the basement for them right now, i paid 13k dollars for it. being a buyer im thrilled you can get such a beautiful car for that kind of money. i guess when i sell it i will feel different but the most i can lose on my car is 13k dollars plus whatever i put into it. i had a 72 BB coupe that i lost 5 grand on 2 years later. i learned long ago if your looking for an investment these cars are not the way to go unless you have a chrystal ball.
In 1999, I paid $14k for a 14k miled 1989. Today, that $14k requires $20k to have the same "buying power". That means $13k bought "more car" for considerably less money...in terms of the dollar's value. We SHOULD say the market is still going down.
When I bought mine, I compared it to ANY 14k miled car. I considered the price not any worse than I would have paid for the "average car". It wasn't going to depreciate any faster...or gain either. I think that's still true.
09-18-2016, 06:28 PM
#56
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2004
Location: altered state
Posts: 81,242
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2,602 Posts
St. Jude Donor '05
Ugh....stop worrying about it
If these were expensive id be looking at something else. In fact I bought my 89 because Camaros were too expensive at the time.
If I married a fat slob that sat on a couch all day and waited every day to see if she would go to the gym like the one next door and didnt?? makes no sense does it? In the meantime I gotta pay the food tax. Dont even mention the words I feel like Im in a cockpit.
If these were expensive id be looking at something else. In fact I bought my 89 because Camaros were too expensive at the time.
If I married a fat slob that sat on a couch all day and waited every day to see if she would go to the gym like the one next door and didnt?? makes no sense does it? In the meantime I gotta pay the food tax. Dont even mention the words I feel like Im in a cockpit.
09-18-2016, 08:41 PM
#57
I got an '85 a couple of months ago. My wife bought a new Equinox and I complained about the cost and resisted the salesman's aggressive sales techniques. The '85 was on the lot and I had been looking at it. They threw it in with the Equinox at no extra charge. I was happy with the price!
09-18-2016, 08:59 PM
#58
Safety Car
Six months ago, I bought a new 29K mile '86, with the window sticker, for less than a third of what it cost brand new 30 years ago. I'm not worried about losing money on it. If C4s become desired collectibles, we can all be rich. 
09-18-2016, 11:03 PM
#59
Safety Car
I got an '85 a couple of months ago. My wife bought a new Equinox and I complained about the cost and resisted the salesman's aggressive sales techniques. The '85 was on the lot and I had been looking at it. They threw it in with the Equinox at no extra charge. I was happy with the price!
Your wife bought a brand new Equinox and there was a 31 year old 1985 C4 on this same new car lot? That would indicate the 85 must have been near perfect to be on a new car lot. And you got it for nothing just because you bought a new car? The mark up on brand new cars is very minimal. Sometimes VERY minimal. So then they just gave you the C4 also so you'd buy the new Equinox?
Can you post a picture of it? Or both of them parked side by side? Honestly, it sounds too good to be true. If so, you're a pretty good wheeler dealer.
09-19-2016, 05:00 AM
#60
Originally Posted by FOURSPEEDVETTE
Wait a minute. Your wife bought a brand new Equinox and there was a 31 year old 1985 C4 on this same new car lot? That would indicate the 85 must have been near perfect to be on a new car lot. And you got it for nothing just because you bought a new car? The mark up on brand new cars is very minimal. Sometimes VERY minimal. So then they just gave you the C4 also so you'd buy the new Equinox? Can you post a picture of it? Or both of them parked side by side? Honestly, it sounds too good to be true. If so, you're a pretty good wheeler dealer.
Your wife bought a brand new Equinox and there was a 31 year old 1985 C4 on this same new car lot? That would indicate the 85 must have been near perfect to be on a new car lot. And you got it for nothing just because you bought a new car? The mark up on brand new cars is very minimal. Sometimes VERY minimal. So then they just gave you the C4 also so you'd buy the new Equinox? Can you post a picture of it? Or both of them parked side by side? Honestly, it sounds too good to be true. If so, you're a pretty good wheeler dealer.