Go Back   Corvette Forum > C4 Corvettes, 1984 - 1996 > C4 Scan & Tune
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ Vendor Directory
Search
C4 Scan & Tune
Corvette Onboard Diagnostics, Service Advice, Dyno Tuning, Fuel Management, Tuning Software, LS1 Edit

Welcome to Corvetteforum.com!
Welcome to Corvetteforum.com.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join Corvetteforum.com today!


Corvette Store
 
 
C7 Parts & Accessories
C6 Parts & Accessories
C5 Parts & Accessories
C4 Parts & Accessories
C3 Parts & Accessories
C2 Parts & Accessories
C1 Parts & Accessories
Wheels & Tires
Sponsored Ads
 
 
Vendor Directory
  
Reply
 
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-11-2003, 11:31 AM   #1
Beth396
CF Member
 
Member Since: Oct 2003
Location: Cave Creek AZ
Default injector pulse width equation

This equation for injection pulse width was given to me by a tuner that frequents the Vettenet email list:

[VE*MAP*displacement]
PW= ----------------------------------------
[#cyl*(IAT*CLT/2)*AFR*flowrate]

He said that CLT was coolant temperture. At one time I looked over the source code for the 91 ECM and it looked like CLT was some other parameter. Does anyone know for sure?

Beth

[Modified by Beth396, 4:32 PM 11/11/2003]


[Modified by Beth396, 4:33 PM 11/11/2003]
Beth396 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2003, 11:34 AM   #2
Beth396
CF Member
 
Member Since: Oct 2003
Location: Cave Creek AZ
Default Re: injector pulse width equation (Beth396)

I've tried twice to fix the format of the above equation. Can someone fix it? It's about a clear as mud..
Beth396 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2003, 01:30 PM   #3
DOCTOR J
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: May 1999
Location: Greenwich, CT
Default Re: injector pulse width equation (Beth396)


Um, I can't read your equation. Presuming you are looking at the $8D mask for a 727,
fuel flow (inj PW) is calculated using fixed inj size & two variables:
Calculated air flow & Commanded AFR.

Commanded AFR is the sum of stoich plus AE & PE,
plus any other fuel modifiers in the main program.

Calculated air flow is the ideal gas law (displacement X rpm) including compensation
for baro pressure, MAT, and EGR. It's expressed in grams/sec.

Baro compensation is taken from a MAP reading just before engine start.
EGR compensation is a subtraction from the partial pressure of air when EGR is active (look-up table).

Temperature compensation is sort of convoluted in the way GM handled the math.
The MAT term can come from 2 tables in the program:

Depending on the setting of a switch, the 'Inv. MAT Term Lookup Delta
Multiplier Vs. Airflow' table may or may not be used.

If this table is disabled then the MAT Compensation Counts Vs. MAT table is
indexed with the normal value of MAT. If this table is enabled, then the
table index for the MAT Compensation Counts table is a corrected value of
MAT. The corrected value is calculated as follows:

Corrected MAT = MAT + Table Value * (Coolant Temp - MAT)
where 'Table Value' is the value looked up from the Inv. MAT Term Lookup
Delta Multiplier table.

The Inverse MAT term is then calculated as:

Inverse MAT Term = Cylinder Volume / (((Table Value ** 0.5) + 233) * 128)
where 'Table Value' is the value looked up from the MAT Compensation
Counts table (indexed by either MAT or the corrected MAT depending on the option switch).

This value is then used in the calculation of the grams of air per cylinder
as follows:

grams air per cylinder = Volumetric Efficiency * (MAP - EGR Partial
Pressure) * Inv. MAT Term

This value and engine RPM are then used to calculate air flow which is then
used to calculate the base pulse width.


Not sure if that answers your Q, but generally that's what is going on
IIRC (it's been a while since I tried to read the hack).

The base fuel calc is updated ~80 times/sec in a 727.

During steady-state operation there is a further embellishment: the pw
is constantly being adjusted via the lambda feedback loop (the
so-called adaptive tuning loop) from the EGO.

Hope that helps.

edited for readability


[Modified by DOCTOR J, 1:42 PM 11/11/2003]
DOCTOR J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2003, 01:54 PM   #4
Skippy Stone
CF Senior Member
 
Skippy Stone's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2002
Location: Aptos CA
Default Re: injector pulse width equation (DOCTOR J)

Quote:
EGR compensation is a subtraction from the partial pressure of air when EGR is active (look-up table).

Temperature compensation is sort of convoluted in the way GM handled the math. The MAT term can come from 2 tables in the program:

Hope that helps.

[Modified by DOCTOR J, 1:38 PM 11/11/2003]
I hope Beth396 will chime in with more information on the equation. However, I want to thank you Doctor J (not THE 76er Doctor J, I presume), for some good information. You have confirmed a suspicion of mine about the EGR. Thus making certain running conditions unstable when the EGR is gone. And the explaination on the MAT and Mat/inv tables has also helped me.

Thank you
Skippy Stone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2003, 02:16 PM   #5
Beth396
CF Member
 
Member Since: Oct 2003
Location: Cave Creek AZ
Default Re: injector pulse width equation (DOCTOR J)

Doctor!

Yes this helps, my intenion was to get some discussion going in this tune section. I don't want to scare anyone with a bunch of technical stuff but some might be interested. Ideal gas law...PV=nRT...cool. I'm going to go over your post and comment, but right now I have to get ready for a meeting in a couple of hours.

Maybe you and Skip can derive the PW equation as a function of injector flow rate, calculated air flow and commanded AFR from the ideal gas law in the mean time..just kidding. Later, Beth
Beth396 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2003, 03:02 PM   #6
Skippy Stone
CF Senior Member
 
Skippy Stone's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2002
Location: Aptos CA
Default Re: injector pulse width equation (Beth396)

If you could pass around that source code for that 91, Beth396, I'll hack anything you need!

Well, at least I'll find somebody who can. :blueangel:
Skippy Stone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2003, 03:45 PM   #7
DOCTOR J
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: May 1999
Location: Greenwich, CT
Default Re: injector pulse width equation (Skippy Stone)


Commented hacks of the GM programs have been publicly available for several
years. One of the most vererable $8D copies is on the site of the late 'ECMGuy':
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/S...g/do_tune.html

GM only makes reading their programs complicated in order to limit those who
actually understand how the computer works to the technically literate :).


There is no need then to derive the pw equation - the calculation is there in
black-letter code. Rather than belabor it, the highlights are these:

Generally, GM treats a high-impedence injector as a fixed-weight device,
although in fact it's a fixed-volume flow controller. GM uses voltage & low-pw
compensation (offset) tables to correct injector opening-time latency, trying to
achieve linearity for their equation.

Based then on some nominal fuel density, the (compensated) pw for the injectors is
calculated to give a stoichiometric weight balance of air to fuel. Stoich is generally
taken as 14.7:1, though it is adjustable in the code (within small limits). It's also
worth noting GM allows for different stoich ratios at idle and under load, just to make
tuning the engines that much more elegant.

BTW, the GM code also contains the complete definition of the ALDL output stream.

Thus the tuning & scanner info needed to work with these ECMs is already de facto
public-domained - which is not surprising for a near-20 year old computer system.

Have fun.

edit for typo


[Modified by DOCTOR J, 3:53 PM 11/11/2003]
DOCTOR J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2003, 06:45 PM   #8
Beth396
CF Member
 
Member Since: Oct 2003
Location: Cave Creek AZ
Default Re: injector pulse width equation (Skippy Stone)

Skip, DoctorJ provided the link. Good thing because I couldn't remember where it was.
Beth396 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 10:09 AM   #9
Beth396
CF Member
 
Member Since: Oct 2003
Location: Cave Creek AZ
Default Re: injector pulse width equation (DOCTOR J)

[VE*MAP*displacement]

PW= ----------------------------------------

[#cyl*(IAT*CLT/2)*AFR*flowrate]

I can't figure out how to get the format of this equation correct so it looks right when I post it. Volumetric efficiency (VE), MAP and displacement are in the numerator and # of cylinders, intake air temperature (IAT), CLT (?), air/fuel ratio (AFR), and injector flowrate are in the denominator.

I don't really feel like getting into the level of detail of the algorithm that DrJ went into. If the equation is basically correct, I'm happy with that. The equation is nice because it shows mathmatically that the injector PW will increase if the IAT is decreased. Cooler air is more dense and the fuel will be increased. If you increase your injector flow rate (bigger injectors or more fuel pressure) the injector PW will decrease.

That's why you don't want to go too large on injectors...you might not be able to shut them down enough at low RPM and MAP. Also, if you increase your MAP (less vacuum) or increase the displacement you'll increase the PW.

Beth
Beth396 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 10:00 PM   #10
HighHopes85
CF Senior Member
 
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: Lafayette IN
Send a message via AIM to HighHopes85
Default Re: injector pulse width equation (Beth396)

Beth...use [cod e] equation here [/cod e] without the spaces in 'code'

<BLOCKQUOTE>code:<HR><PRE>
[VE*MAP*displacement]
PW= ---------------------------------
[#cyl*(IAT*CLT/2)*AFR*flowrate]
</PRE>[/QUOTE]


[Modified by HighHopes85, 9:00 PM 11/12/2003]
HighHopes85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2003, 07:25 PM   #11
Skippy Stone
CF Senior Member
 
Skippy Stone's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jul 2002
Location: Aptos CA
Default Re: injector pulse width equation (DOCTOR J)

Quote:

Thus the tuning & scanner info needed to work with these ECMs is already de facto
public-domained - which is not surprising for a near-20 year old computer system.

[Modified by DOCTOR J, 3:53 PM 11/11/2003]
A technology pup!

that's younger than the original Mac OS
which is a bunch younger than DOS (Microsoft still uses it)
which is a bunch younger than UNIX.

But then the auto technology is rather primative. You could get DOHCs on something like a 1908 or 1910 Alfa. I forget which year.

Thanks for the link. I forgot about that.
------------------------------------------------

Thanks HighHopes85 for the clear equation.
Skippy Stone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2003, 07:25 PM
 
Go Back   Corvette Forum > C4 Corvettes, 1984 - 1996 > C4 Scan & Tune
Reload this Page injector pulse width equation
 
 
 
Reply

Tags
afr, airflow, auto, base, calculation, corvette, egr, equation, estimation, formula, gm, injector, pulse, tune, ve, width


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Click for Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Any Beth Hart fans here??? ThePigWhisperer Off Topic 0 05-05-2013 10:52 AM
Who wanted the 65 with the original motor? 69z28&ss396 C1s & C2s for Sale/Wanted 1 04-22-2013 08:37 PM
Cragar SS Wheels on a C2 - Who's got 'em? 4WDVETTE C1 & C2 Corvettes 12 11-14-2003 08:31 AM
Rear bolts for a C2 hardtop.....how do they attach.... sams'66 C1 & C2 Corvettes 5 11-11-2003 11:52 AM
275/40/17 & 275/40/18 or 255/40/17 - 285/35/18 GS D3s on Stock Rims KF9BD Wheels & Tires 0 11-10-2003 11:45 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:31 AM.


Emails & Password Backup