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406ci Traditional Mouse Vs. Late-Model 402ci LS2

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Old 12-14-2006, 08:47 AM
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BrianCunningham
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Default 406ci Traditional Mouse Vs. Late-Model 402ci LS2

An interesting read
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...sts/index.html
We initially tossed the idea of comparing a stock LS1 with a conventional small-block 350, but after questioning the angle we later realized, what’s the fun in that? And dare we say, it’s already been done by others who’ll be the first to admit that they did a fair job of updating you with the crucial differences—but certainly did little to stimulate the gearhead factor. To kick it up a notch, and satiate our hunger for power, we set the stage to bump up the cubic inches of a later-model LS2 into a big-inch 402 and pin it against a “warmed over” 406ci small-block.
Our requirements for this challenge: All components had to be readily available, over-the-counter production pieces; nothing over 11:1 compression; we had to use a hydraulic-roller camshaft; and we had to keep the components as close as possible, meaning we had to use the same manufacturer for our cylinder heads, camshafts, and manifolds, and most importantly, both bullets had to share the same carburetor.
...
Q&A WITH SHAWN MENDENHALL FROM COAST HIGH PERFORMANCE
CHP: We gave you a tough task, building a traditional small-block to match up with a Gen IV motor.
Shawn Mendenhall: GM did well in designing the LS-series engines. The 15-degree heads are such a huge advantage. It would have been nice if we could have used 18-degree cylinder heads.
CHP: It there anything to be said for going old school?
SM: The only advantage for the 23-degree setup is the bore. With a larger bore size, it's easier for the heads to breathe, and you can start with a factory block, which you can still get at a swap meet. It costs more to do a 4.125-inch bore in the newer motors, because you need cylinder sleeves and custom pistons.
CHP: What does the future hold for the traditional small-block configuration?
SM: Until there's no more gas, people will have fun with them. As long as there's a desire for 23-degree parts and people still have stuff stashed in their garages, they're never gonna go away. Aftermarket blocks are more within the average guy's reach.
CHP: You mentioned 18-degree heads. What are your thoughts on the subject?
SM: The 18-degree stuff is old-school racing technology. Make it user-friendly, which is already starting to happen, and it's gonna really change the market. You can make good power with 18-degree heads--they're gonna be able to make a ton of horsepower on the street.
Old 12-14-2006, 09:44 AM
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cv67
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THe LS motor will make more per with less cam timing and be more street freindly . Both killer motors though.
Old 12-14-2006, 10:09 AM
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mos90
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if the 23 deg heads on the 406 were ported to flow the same # as the ls2 heads the 406 would have made more power than the the 402. they could have stepped the cam down to comparable sizes and it would have been a wash. but good info. the 406 #s are about the same as my motor but i have a solid roller and a smaller intake runner. i can still kick myself in the butt for not spending 2k more (for dart or world block)and building a 434 rather than a 396 but what are you gonna do. could have made 650 hp rather than 570.
Old 12-14-2006, 11:15 AM
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GeosFun
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Magazine tests sure do like to use carburators. Few of us have them anymore, so those of us with FI still have to scratch our heads. But the article is pretty clear the new LS engines have a major leg up on us oldsters.

I wonder how the new AFR Eliminator 23 degree heads with comparable port volume would have performed in this test.
Old 12-14-2006, 12:00 PM
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mos90
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they are going to produce a 220 and 230 cc eliminator. afr said that they will flow up to 350 cfm for the full comp ported 230cc
Old 12-14-2006, 02:00 PM
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In the article above, the LS heads are 225cc flowing 313cfm at .600. The Dart Pro 1 heads are 227cc flowing 309 at .700, pretty comparable.

I will wait with baited breath to see what kind of power the 220AFR Eliminators produce. They sound pretty comparable to the Dart Pro 1 in this test. Maybe they are the saving grace for us 23 degree guys.

After all, doesn't "flow volume and velocity = flow volume and velocity = same HP" ? If the Eliminator heads are comparable to the LS heads in performance, maybe we still have a few years left in our dino's.
Old 12-14-2006, 02:02 PM
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Geezz....makes us 18deg headed sbc guys feel really "old school performance" when you hear LS motor guys talk about there valve angle.
Old 12-14-2006, 04:32 PM
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GeosFun
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makes us 18deg headed sbc guys

Show off!
Old 12-14-2006, 04:49 PM
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SHINOBI-X
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Originally Posted by GeosFun
makes us 18deg headed sbc guys

Show off!
I wish I had some 18 heads I had 21deg heads......they where sportsman II 200 IRON heads angle milled down to the limit and the chambers size was at 55.8cc! They where on a 358cid I had once. It did like to rev

But....I don't think that motor I had was as efficient and reliable as a 402LS2 or any LS motor for that matter.
Old 12-14-2006, 04:54 PM
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Steve85
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SM: The 18-degree stuff is old-school racing technology. Make it user-friendly, which is already starting to happen, and it's gonna really change the market. You can make good power with 18-degree heads--they're gonna be able to make a ton of horsepower on the street.
You can buy heads/intake/rockers all day on ebay at good prices but..

One problem is getting headers that will fit anything but what Hedman makes for early Camaro's and Nova's (and maybe a couple other cars now)

I have made several phone calls to C4 header mfr's, including a lengthy discussion with Stahle, and none are willing to weld an 18* flange on set of C4 headers.

The other problem is the chamber sizes, most are mid 50's making it a challenge to get a street friendly comp ratio.
Old 12-14-2006, 07:50 PM
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CFI-EFI
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Originally Posted by RainDelay
The other problem is the chamber sizes, most are mid 50's making it a challenge to get a street friendly comp ratio.
I have a set of 64 cc chamber heads and have to have 22 cc dishes in the pistons, just to get down to 11 1/2:1. With heads like that, I'd have to install the pistons up side down.

We Gen I and Gen II guys are playing with outselves if we think we can keep up with the newer technology. The LS engines are the wave of the future...for now.

RACE ON!!!
Old 12-14-2006, 07:59 PM
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It's not just the valve angle. LS motors: symetrical ports, intake and exhaust,
Different firing order...
The Pro Stock guys been swappin 4 and 7 for years. Not alot of people outside of hardcore racers know about it. Makes the engine run completely different. On the order of 75 HP on a hi HP BBC
Plus 8 coils. Lets not get into the benefit of multi coils, more saturation time.
Cathedral ports...
Superior electronics...
It goes on, and on...
Old 12-14-2006, 08:22 PM
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JAKE
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[SNIP=GeosFun;1558103005]Magazine tests sure do like to use carburators. Few of us have them anymore, so those of us with FI still have to scratch our heads. [/SNIP]

I've repeatedly noticed the same thing myself. It's like an apple to oranges comparison. About time they entered the 21st century with the rest of us.

Jake

Last edited by JAKE; 12-15-2006 at 12:21 AM.
Old 12-14-2006, 10:11 PM
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doug_dayson
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Not to mention a way stronger bottom end, and lighter weight too!

Originally Posted by edcmat-l1
It's not just the valve angle. LS motors: symetrical ports, intake and exhaust,
Different firing order...
The Pro Stock guys been swappin 4 and 7 for years. Not alot of people outside of hardcore racers know about it. Makes the engine run completely different. On the order of 75 HP on a hi HP BBC
Plus 8 coils. Lets not get into the benefit of multi coils, more saturation time.
Cathedral ports...
Superior electronics...
It goes on, and on...
Old 12-15-2006, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by doug_dayson
Not to mention a way stronger bottom end, and lighter weight too!
Agreed!! Cross bolt mains (427 side oiler, TF Hemis). Heads bolts that all the way to the crank case.
The only limiting factor at HP levels exceeding 1000 has been the head bolt configuration.
I think the mags use carbs to simplify, and to take the electronics out of the equation.
If they wanted to make that comparison as equal as possible, they should have used a 4-7 swap cam and 218 deg heads. Or even better SB2 heads.

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