Has anyone tried the "Summit" 170cc heads yet?
01-01-2007, 06:11 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Has anyone tried the "Summit" 170cc heads yet?
They are $950 a pair, and look to be an obvious TrickFlow casting. Not surprising since TFS is owned by Summit. The exterior of the entire cylinder head and the heart shaped combustion chamber look to be an exact match for the TFS 195cc head, yet the port shapes and measurements are the same as the TFS 175cc heads. Looks to be the best of both worlds for someone who wishes to up the power at a reasonable cost. Small runners, with big valves. Supposedly, they flow 240cfm@.500" lift, which should be a perfect match for a ported TPI intake setup with a mild cam, or stocker w/1.6's.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
What do you all think?
Has anyone tried a set out yet?
...or shall I be the first?
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1387.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1388.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1389.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1390.jpg
.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
What do you all think?
Has anyone tried a set out yet?
...or shall I be the first?
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1387.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1388.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1389.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1390.jpg
.
Last edited by rel3rd; 01-01-2007 at 07:05 PM.
01-01-2007, 07:34 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Nov 2004
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Not familiar with these heads, but that is still alot of money for a set of 170cc SBC heads. You can get a set of Vortec heads (also 170cc/over 220cfm) for about half that.
I would spend the extra $100-$200 for a 195cc head, make excellent power on a street engine (260+cfm), and have room to grow when more power is desired.
To be competative, they need to price those heads closer to $750/pair (they SHOULD sell for $650... Summit would still make money).
I would spend the extra $100-$200 for a 195cc head, make excellent power on a street engine (260+cfm), and have room to grow when more power is desired.
To be competative, they need to price those heads closer to $750/pair (they SHOULD sell for $650... Summit would still make money).
01-01-2007, 08:06 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
What about the people who have already been there and done that in the past, and know that 300rwhp (tops) will be fine for their current ride?
01-01-2007, 10:55 PM
#4
They are $950 a pair, and look to be an obvious TrickFlow casting. Not surprising since TFS is owned by Summit. The exterior of the entire cylinder head and the heart shaped combustion chamber look to be an exact match for the TFS 195cc head, yet the port shapes and measurements are the same as the TFS 175cc heads. Looks to be the best of both worlds for someone who wishes to up the power at a reasonable cost. Small runners, with big valves. Supposedly, they flow 240cfm@.500" lift, which should be a perfect match for a ported TPI intake setup with a mild cam, or stocker w/1.6's.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
What do you all think?
Has anyone tried a set out yet?
...or shall I be the first?
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1387.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1388.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1389.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1390.jpg
.
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
What do you all think?
Has anyone tried a set out yet?
...or shall I be the first?
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1387.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1388.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1389.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...2/site1390.jpg
.
Yes I think they are TFS castings. You are right about the 240cfm. My TFS are a 195cc, and flow in the 260cfm range.
01-02-2007, 12:05 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Nov 2004
Location: It's more of a 'town'. Iowa (we make E85 here--Oh yes, you are welcome!)
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Who is making 300 RWHP with a stock TPI intake? Ported or otherwise? (Not trying to be a smart azz, not saying it is impossible.)
If you can port your own TPI plenum and intake, you can surely do a bowl job on a set of used Vortecs (or 113s). Granted, the Vortec heads require a $400 intake (they somehow find a way to "get you coming and going"), but to take advantage of a head that flows to .500-.550" lift, and the 'matching' cam's powerband, you will need more than a ported L98/TPI intake manifold. If you are not going to use a cam with over 220 degrees of duration (@ .050") and .520" lift, than you don't require a set of expensive aluminum aftermarket heads.
I understand the idea of trying to make good, usable power, on a budget. Spending almost $1,000 for what sounds like the SMALLEST 23 degree SBC aftermarket aluminum head made (Edelbrock makes an overpriced 170cc head, also) seems a little counter-productive.
You may want to consider a set of aftermarket iron 180cc heads and have the possibility to make 350 streetable RWHP for $200-$300 less.
As for quality, I ported a set of TFS 195s for a friend and their casting/core shift was horrible! I would be surprised if they even flowed 260cfm before I cleaned out the bowls and seat shoulders.
If you can port your own TPI plenum and intake, you can surely do a bowl job on a set of used Vortecs (or 113s). Granted, the Vortec heads require a $400 intake (they somehow find a way to "get you coming and going"), but to take advantage of a head that flows to .500-.550" lift, and the 'matching' cam's powerband, you will need more than a ported L98/TPI intake manifold. If you are not going to use a cam with over 220 degrees of duration (@ .050") and .520" lift, than you don't require a set of expensive aluminum aftermarket heads.
I understand the idea of trying to make good, usable power, on a budget. Spending almost $1,000 for what sounds like the SMALLEST 23 degree SBC aftermarket aluminum head made (Edelbrock makes an overpriced 170cc head, also) seems a little counter-productive.
You may want to consider a set of aftermarket iron 180cc heads and have the possibility to make 350 streetable RWHP for $200-$300 less.
As for quality, I ported a set of TFS 195s for a friend and their casting/core shift was horrible! I would be surprised if they even flowed 260cfm before I cleaned out the bowls and seat shoulders.
01-02-2007, 12:14 AM
#6
Who is making 300 RWHP with a stock TPI intake? Ported or otherwise? (Not trying to be a smart azz, not saying it is impossible.)
If you can port your own TPI plenum and intake, you can surely do a bowl job on a set of used Vortecs (or 113s). Granted, the Vortec heads require a $400 intake (they somehow find a way to "get you coming and going"), but to take advantage of a head that flows to .500-.550" lift, and the 'matching' cam's powerband, you will need more than a ported L98/TPI intake manifold. If you are not going to use a cam with over 220 degrees of duration (@ .050") and .520" lift, than you don't require a set of expensive aluminum aftermarket heads.
I understand the idea of trying to make good, usable power, on a budget. Spending almost $1,000 for what sounds like the SMALLEST 23 degree SBC aftermarket aluminum head made (Edelbrock makes an overpriced 170cc head, also) seems a little counter-productive.
You may want to consider a set of aftermarket iron 180cc heads and have the possibility to make 350 streetable RWHP for $200-$300 less.
As for quality, I ported a set of TFS 195s for a friend and their casting/core shift was horrible! I would be surprised if they even flowed 260cfm before I cleaned out the bowls and seat shoulders.
If you can port your own TPI plenum and intake, you can surely do a bowl job on a set of used Vortecs (or 113s). Granted, the Vortec heads require a $400 intake (they somehow find a way to "get you coming and going"), but to take advantage of a head that flows to .500-.550" lift, and the 'matching' cam's powerband, you will need more than a ported L98/TPI intake manifold. If you are not going to use a cam with over 220 degrees of duration (@ .050") and .520" lift, than you don't require a set of expensive aluminum aftermarket heads.
I understand the idea of trying to make good, usable power, on a budget. Spending almost $1,000 for what sounds like the SMALLEST 23 degree SBC aftermarket aluminum head made (Edelbrock makes an overpriced 170cc head, also) seems a little counter-productive.
You may want to consider a set of aftermarket iron 180cc heads and have the possibility to make 350 streetable RWHP for $200-$300 less.
As for quality, I ported a set of TFS 195s for a friend and their casting/core shift was horrible! I would be surprised if they even flowed 260cfm before I cleaned out the bowls and seat shoulders.
Interesting stuff. I have seen 3 sets of Kenny D. TFS heads, and there quality control is bang on. Both sets flowed 260, and 261 cfm at .550 lift. I have my flow bench results on my computer. You must of got a ****ty set of heads. TFS generally is on the ball.
01-02-2007, 12:35 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
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Yes, I was very surprised. They were a set of Kenny Dutts w/CNC chambers that we bought off of ebay. So we disassembled them to just clean and lap the valves. Both heads were about the same--unexcusable core shift (though not so evident from the outside finish). I spent something like 4 hours just rough blending the throats to the bowls. I hope they re-zeroed after that batch. I think I am still finding aluminum shavings in my shoes!
01-02-2007, 01:02 AM
#8
Yes, I was very surprised. They were a set of Kenny Dutts w/CNC chambers that we bought off of ebay. So we disassembled them to just clean and lap the valves. Both heads were about the same--unexcusable core shift (though not so evident from the outside finish). I spent something like 4 hours just rough blending the throats to the bowls. I hope they re-zeroed after that batch. I think I am still finding aluminum shavings in my shoes!
hmm. did you guys flow them after all that work? you talking about the 195CC CNC's?
01-02-2007, 01:19 AM
#9
Pro
01-02-2007, 01:26 AM
#10
Yeah I think he made 300rwhp/380rwtq. It appears there was a few bricks taken out of the typical TPI dyno graph, but the wall certainly wasnt destroyed. As you can tell peak RWHP is at around 4500 rpm's. It was moved up a tad over my old dyno runs. I think my stocker peaked at 4300 rpm's.
I doubt you would want to rev that motor past 5000 rpm's, as the Torque peak is sinking like the Titanic.
Still not bad however. At 5500 rpm's, It appears that motor is making around 275rwhp, but the torque is around 250rwhp. So yeah a few bricks were taken from the wall, but the wall is still standing in especially in the torque department. I personally dont think the wall can be destroyed with the long tube runners.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/phot...Razor_Dyno.JPG
I doubt you would want to rev that motor past 5000 rpm's, as the Torque peak is sinking like the Titanic.
Still not bad however. At 5500 rpm's, It appears that motor is making around 275rwhp, but the torque is around 250rwhp. So yeah a few bricks were taken from the wall, but the wall is still standing in especially in the torque department. I personally dont think the wall can be destroyed with the long tube runners.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/phot...Razor_Dyno.JPG
Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; 01-02-2007 at 01:39 AM.
01-02-2007, 02:26 AM
#12
Pro
Yeah I think he made 300rwhp/380rwtq. It appears there was a few bricks taken out of the typical TPI dyno graph, but the wall certainly wasnt destroyed. As you can tell peak RWHP is at around 4500 rpm's. It was moved up a tad over my old dyno runs. I think my stocker peaked at 4300 rpm's.
I doubt you would want to rev that motor past 5000 rpm's, as the Torque peak is sinking like the Titanic.
Still not bad however. At 5500 rpm's, It appears that motor is making around 275rwhp, but the torque is around 250rwhp. So yeah a few bricks were taken from the wall, but the wall is still standing in especially in the torque department. I personally dont think the wall can be destroyed with the long tube runners.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/phot...Razor_Dyno.JPG
I doubt you would want to rev that motor past 5000 rpm's, as the Torque peak is sinking like the Titanic.
Still not bad however. At 5500 rpm's, It appears that motor is making around 275rwhp, but the torque is around 250rwhp. So yeah a few bricks were taken from the wall, but the wall is still standing in especially in the torque department. I personally dont think the wall can be destroyed with the long tube runners.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/phot...Razor_Dyno.JPG
01-02-2007, 02:34 AM
#13
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St. Jude Donor '05
For the money probably not a bad head to use with TPI. The intake will only flow so much...
01-02-2007, 08:34 AM
#14
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01-02-2007, 08:37 AM
#15
01-02-2007, 08:53 AM
#16
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Yeah I think he made 300rwhp/380rwtq. It appears there was a few bricks taken out of the typical TPI dyno graph, but the wall certainly wasnt destroyed. As you can tell peak RWHP is at around 4500 rpm's. It was moved up a tad over my old dyno runs. I think my stocker peaked at 4300 rpm's.
I doubt you would want to rev that motor past 5000 rpm's, as the Torque peak is sinking like the Titanic.
Still not bad however. At 5500 rpm's, It appears that motor is making around 275rwhp, but the torque is around 250rwhp. So yeah a few bricks were taken from the wall, but the wall is still standing in especially in the torque department. I personally dont think the wall can be destroyed with the long tube runners.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/phot...Razor_Dyno.JPG
I doubt you would want to rev that motor past 5000 rpm's, as the Torque peak is sinking like the Titanic.
Still not bad however. At 5500 rpm's, It appears that motor is making around 275rwhp, but the torque is around 250rwhp. So yeah a few bricks were taken from the wall, but the wall is still standing in especially in the torque department. I personally dont think the wall can be destroyed with the long tube runners.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/phot...Razor_Dyno.JPG
So if I only nocked off a couple of bricks, what is the tpi wall then?
My old dyno shows 290 rwhp at 5,000 rpm. and 310 rwtq.
The short video clip shows my car still pulling hard at 5k.
The dyno was 2 weeks after I finished the Head/cam install and I think she's running even better now.
I shift at 5,200 rpm.
01-02-2007, 09:02 AM
#17
So if I only nocked off a couple of bricks, what is the tpi wall then?
My old dyno shows 290 rwhp at 5,000 rpm. and 310 rwtq.
The short video clip shows my car still pulling hard at 5k.
The dyno was 2 weeks after I finished the Head/cam install and I think she's running even better now.
I shift at 5,200 rpm.
My old dyno shows 290 rwhp at 5,000 rpm. and 310 rwtq.
The short video clip shows my car still pulling hard at 5k.
The dyno was 2 weeks after I finished the Head/cam install and I think she's running even better now.
I shift at 5,200 rpm.
I am not saying you didnt build a nice motor there. It would be real fun on the street, and you will be able to spin the back tires in 2nd gear on the roll since I can almost do it with my 330rwtq. When I first got my car, I thought I would build a motor just like yours, but I had change of heart.
It appears when comparing to my stock dyno graph after a 7 hour sleep that you prolonged the RWHP and RWTQ curves by about 500 rpm's by maving way more air. Does it have similar curves? The answer is you bet yeah.
Also I did not see this video. Can I view it?
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1452735 My "stock" TPI dyno pull is hosted by Vic'89. See the similarities. The biggest difference is you made around 60 more RWHP and 50 more RWTQ. Goodjob!
Last edited by 88BlackZ-51; 01-02-2007 at 09:18 AM.
01-02-2007, 10:31 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p...=Ricksdyno.flv
Razor89 is making 300rwhp for one...with a very simple combo.
A lot of others are close, and there's a few doing it with TPI powered non-Vettes as well. If I make 250-275rwhp I'll be fine with that because I also know the torque will also be up there where I want it. 375rwtq is the goal. As for big horsepower, like I said...already been there, done that. Heck, 5 years ago my street car made more rwhp than your user name...I'm looking for something different this time around. A "FUN" street car....
Vortec heads are not an option IMHO. For starters, they are $750+ for new ones, then with the $400 intake, the "deal factor" is quickly gone. I already have a prepped TPI intake, so I'd rather not sell for a loss so I can buy cheaper heads.
The cheapest 113 heads I found (when looking) were $500 for a 100K mile+ set. Factor in me taking the time to do some bowl work, then probably some new springs, maybe a few guides, a valve job, etc., from my local machine shop and they too quickly lose any cost effectiveness. Not to mention, I'd prefer NOT to run used heads.
I've also found out by personal past experience that you don't have to have a BIG CAM to make respectable power. Whenever anyone asks about a performance part, there's one thing a lot of people here seem to confuse themselves with, and it is the fact that not everyone wants a drag car, not everyone wants a MiniRam/SuperRam/LT1 intake, or a car that needs a 3500 stall converter, or one that needs to rev to 6 grand or so to make power. I don't want any of that. None.
The main reason I am swapping to an aluminum head is because that is what's out there at, IMHO, a reasonable price. My car has the typical small block chevy iron heads that are in need of freshening, and possibly some guides as well. Since I could care less about having the original heads on my car, it's not a smart move to invest any money into them. Especially since I'd still have a set of iron heads that are OK at best.
My last car, which was a toy that I sold to buy the Vette, ran very well with it's too big, un-needed aluminum heads, an efi intake designed for an engine that made peak power at 5200 rpm's or less, and a stock camshaft with some higher ratio rockers. I wasn't dis-satisfied with that combo, and I don't expect to be unhappy with this one.
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...go_org_pub.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/My_1st_Movie.wmv
Originally Posted by 500hp
Who is making 300 RWHP with a stock TPI intake? Ported or otherwise? (Not trying to be a smart azz, not saying it is impossible.)
If you can port your own TPI plenum and intake, you can surely do a bowl job on a set of used Vortecs (or 113s). Granted, the Vortec heads require a $400 intake (they somehow find a way to "get you coming and going"), but to take advantage of a head that flows to .500-.550" lift, and the 'matching' cam's powerband, you will need more than a ported L98/TPI intake manifold. If you are not going to use a cam with over 220 degrees of duration (@ .050") and .520" lift, than you don't require a set of expensive aluminum aftermarket heads.
I understand the idea of trying to make good, usable power, on a budget. Spending almost $1,000 for what sounds like the SMALLEST 23 degree SBC aftermarket aluminum head made (Edelbrock makes an overpriced 170cc head, also) seems a little counter-productive.
If you can port your own TPI plenum and intake, you can surely do a bowl job on a set of used Vortecs (or 113s). Granted, the Vortec heads require a $400 intake (they somehow find a way to "get you coming and going"), but to take advantage of a head that flows to .500-.550" lift, and the 'matching' cam's powerband, you will need more than a ported L98/TPI intake manifold. If you are not going to use a cam with over 220 degrees of duration (@ .050") and .520" lift, than you don't require a set of expensive aluminum aftermarket heads.
I understand the idea of trying to make good, usable power, on a budget. Spending almost $1,000 for what sounds like the SMALLEST 23 degree SBC aftermarket aluminum head made (Edelbrock makes an overpriced 170cc head, also) seems a little counter-productive.
A lot of others are close, and there's a few doing it with TPI powered non-Vettes as well. If I make 250-275rwhp I'll be fine with that because I also know the torque will also be up there where I want it. 375rwtq is the goal. As for big horsepower, like I said...already been there, done that. Heck, 5 years ago my street car made more rwhp than your user name...I'm looking for something different this time around. A "FUN" street car....
Vortec heads are not an option IMHO. For starters, they are $750+ for new ones, then with the $400 intake, the "deal factor" is quickly gone. I already have a prepped TPI intake, so I'd rather not sell for a loss so I can buy cheaper heads.
The cheapest 113 heads I found (when looking) were $500 for a 100K mile+ set. Factor in me taking the time to do some bowl work, then probably some new springs, maybe a few guides, a valve job, etc., from my local machine shop and they too quickly lose any cost effectiveness. Not to mention, I'd prefer NOT to run used heads.
I've also found out by personal past experience that you don't have to have a BIG CAM to make respectable power. Whenever anyone asks about a performance part, there's one thing a lot of people here seem to confuse themselves with, and it is the fact that not everyone wants a drag car, not everyone wants a MiniRam/SuperRam/LT1 intake, or a car that needs a 3500 stall converter, or one that needs to rev to 6 grand or so to make power. I don't want any of that. None.
The main reason I am swapping to an aluminum head is because that is what's out there at, IMHO, a reasonable price. My car has the typical small block chevy iron heads that are in need of freshening, and possibly some guides as well. Since I could care less about having the original heads on my car, it's not a smart move to invest any money into them. Especially since I'd still have a set of iron heads that are OK at best.
My last car, which was a toy that I sold to buy the Vette, ran very well with it's too big, un-needed aluminum heads, an efi intake designed for an engine that made peak power at 5200 rpm's or less, and a stock camshaft with some higher ratio rockers. I wasn't dis-satisfied with that combo, and I don't expect to be unhappy with this one.
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/wsb/...go_org_pub.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~rel3rd/My_1st_Movie.wmv
01-02-2007, 10:47 AM
#19
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St. Jude Donor '05
I've also found out by personal past experience that you don't have to have a BIG CAM to make respectable power. Whenever anyone asks about a performance part, there's one thing a lot of people here seem to confuse themselves with, and it is the fact that not everyone wants a drag car, not everyone wants a MiniRam/SuperRam/LT1 intake, or a car that needs a 3500 stall converter, or one that needs to rev to 6 grand or so to make power. I don't want any of that. None.
Just beacuse these cars' peak hp is low does not mean its bad, tHey were designed and geared for street torque. All rpm does it create heat and wear it out .
Last edited by cv67; 01-02-2007 at 10:50 AM.
01-02-2007, 11:17 AM
#20
Pro
