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Old 03-07-2007, 04:21 PM   #1
sxyvet
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Default " dart pro 1 vs Afr heads "

hi there guys,
i was just wandering what you think of the dart pro1 new platnium heads 200 cc stage 3 alloy vs the Air flow reasearch 195 cc heads!
which would be better?
any design diffrence betwene the too?
which would be better for performance?
any help,ideas facts would be great!
cheers
glen
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Old 03-07-2007, 04:29 PM   #2
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I used to have the AFR's and have since gone to the DART's. Biggest difference is that the Dart's will have more potential down the road b/c they do not have the BAD core shift in the design that the AFR's do. Once you get somewhat radical w/porting, the Dart's will be your best bet. Plus...out of the box, (I am using the 230's) w/only bowl work, they out flowed my FULLY ported and rewelded (b/c of bad casting w/ core shift in the aluminum) AFR's by 550 lift compared to my AFR's @ 600!

Just my opinion. I used the AFR's for almost 8 years. Dont get me wrong...they have a great product; just have some bugs to get worked out.

JP
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:46 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sxyvet View Post
hi there guys,
i was just wandering what you think of the dart pro1 new platnium heads 200 cc stage 3 alloy vs the Air flow reasearch 195 cc heads!
which would be better?
any design diffrence betwene the too?
which would be better for performance?
any help,ideas facts would be great!
cheers
glen
Are you looking for the best out of the box heads, with no porting?

What is your budget?

What will be your max cam lift?

What RPM range do you plan on having?

You have a Superram now right?
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:49 PM   #4
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Old 03-07-2007, 05:55 PM   #5
sxyvet
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hi 97aggie,
thanks for your reply and advice mate!
hi ld85 also,
yep mate i am looking for the best out of the box with no porting would be great!!!

budget is around the $1,400 u.s dollar mark for the pair complete!!

my comp cam max lift is 570 " lift on intake,560" lift on exhaust @1.6 ratio rockers.

rpm range from 1,800 up to say 5,800/6,000 rpm.

also yep i have a fully ported/matched super ram as well!


sorry larry i should of mentioned this stuff before but i was in a bit of a rush to do the post before i had to go out!!
cheers and thanks for your help mate!
glen
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97AGGIE View Post
I used to have the AFR's and have since gone to the DART's. Biggest difference is that the Dart's will have more potential down the road b/c they do not have the BAD core shift in the design that the AFR's do. Once you get somewhat radical w/porting, the Dart's will be your best bet. Plus...out of the box, (I am using the 230's) w/only bowl work, they out flowed my FULLY ported and rewelded (b/c of bad casting w/ core shift in the aluminum) AFR's by 550 lift compared to my AFR's @ 600!

Just my opinion. I used the AFR's for almost 8 years. Dont get me wrong...they have a great product; just have some bugs to get worked out.

JP
Note that you are referring to our older product line....read up on the all new completely redesigned Eliminator product line before you make any hasty decisions. Clean sheet of paper design all new from the ground up....new castings, port and chamber designs, 8 mm lightweight valves, 1.260 lightweight dual springs for better valve control and less valvefloat.....I could go on and on.

Also....highest flow numbers in their class....we have a 195 street head that flows 300 CFM at .600 lift.....I cant tell you how many 220-230 cc race heads are lucky to get to the same number and usually take .700 lift to do so. I have flowed a handful of 230 cc ports that went in the 280-290 CFM range.

As I said....if your not familiar with the new Eliminator product do your homework.

Check our website for more information....

www.airflowresearch.com



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Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 03-12-2007 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Mamo @ AFR View Post
Note that you are referring to our older product line....read up on the all new completely redesigned Eliminator product line before you make any hasty decisions. Clean sheet of paper design all new from the ground up....new castings, port and chamber designs, 8 mm lightweight valves, 1.260 lightweight dual springs for better valve control and less valvefloat.....I could go on and on.

Also....highest flow numbers in their class....we have a 195 street head that flows 300 CFM at .600 lift.....I cant tell you how many 220-230 cc race heads are lucky to get to the same number and usually take .700 lift to do so. I have flowed a handful of 230 cc ports that went in the 280-290 CFM range.

As I said....if your not familiar with the new Eliminator product do your homework.

Check our website for more information....

www.airflowresearch.com



Tony M.
Tony

The assumption you're making is none of us did our homework and that we should believe everything on your website: Independent flow sheets vs what is on your web site.

AFR 210 (as cast) Independently tested

Intake exhaust
.100 67.7 54.3
.150 99.0 82.2
.200 130.3 105.2
.250 157.4 127.5
.300 184.1 146.1
.350 201.8 166.6
.400 214.8 182.2
.450 224.6 192.7
.500 232.3 201.9
.550 237.0 208.9
.600 237.0 213.3

AFR CNC 210 (I'll make the assumption it's your "Race Ready" CNC with 2.08 intakes

Intake exhaust Difference from website
.100 61.9 49.4
.150 89.9 80.7
.200 123.1 103.9 -6 -9
.250 150.9 127.5
.300 177.4 147.7 -9 +3
.350 207.2 164.7
.400 227.3 177.9 -7 -7
.450 245.1 190.7
.500 258.0 200.1 -5 -5
.550 267.4 207.1 -3 -3
.600 271.3 213.3 -4 -2
.650 271.6 219.3 -3.5 +2
.700 271.6 222.5 0 +2

OK……. A little less??

Now………How about ported LT1 casting (LE'3s)
Valves are 2.05" /1.60", intake ports are 208 CC , and flow #'s are:

144 / 108@ .200"
202 / 142@ .300"
243 / 174@ .400"
278 / 187@ .500"
287 / 198@ .600"
290 / 202@ .650

Again, when the heads actually hit the streets and people have the chance to independently flow your heads......you'll have more believers.

Talk with us........not to us or at us. We know also what the dyno's say about the exact same heads shown. Want the dyno numbers also?? Hint.....not 615 hp.
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Old 03-08-2007, 01:21 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d48mclain View Post
Tony

The assumption you're making is none of us did our homework and that we should believe everything on your website: Independent flow sheets vs what is on your web site.

AFR 210 (as cast) Independently tested

Intake exhaust
.100 67.7 54.3
.150 99.0 82.2
.200 130.3 105.2
.250 157.4 127.5
.300 184.1 146.1
.350 201.8 166.6
.400 214.8 182.2
.450 224.6 192.7
.500 232.3 201.9
.550 237.0 208.9
.600 237.0 213.3

AFR CNC 210 (I'll make the assumption it's your "Race Ready" CNC with 2.08 intakes

Intake exhaust Difference from website
.100 61.9 49.4
.150 89.9 80.7
.200 123.1 103.9 -6 -9
.250 150.9 127.5
.300 177.4 147.7 -9 +3
.350 207.2 164.7
.400 227.3 177.9 -7 -7
.450 245.1 190.7
.500 258.0 200.1 -5 -5
.550 267.4 207.1 -3 -3
.600 271.3 213.3 -4 -2
.650 271.6 219.3 -3.5 +2
.700 271.6 222.5 0 +2

OK……. A little less??

Now………How about ported LT1 casting (LE'3s)
Valves are 2.05" /1.60", intake ports are 208 CC , and flow #'s are:

144 / 108@ .200"
202 / 142@ .300"
243 / 174@ .400"
278 / 187@ .500"
287 / 198@ .600"
290 / 202@ .650

Again, when the heads actually hit the streets and people have the chance to independently flow your heads......you'll have more believers.

Talk with us........not to us or at us. We know also what the dyno's say about the exact same heads shown. Want the dyno numbers also?? Hint.....not 615 hp.

You know what... you need to quit hammering on Tony from AFR. I don't see people on here from Dart, Edelbrock, Brodix,Trick flow or any other cylinder head manufacturer out there, on this website. He is a valuble asset to this forum. And he has raised the bar on small block Chevy cylinder heads.
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Old 03-08-2007, 01:35 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by tpi 421 vette View Post
You know what... you need to quit hammering on Tony from AFR. I don't see people on here from Dart, Edelbrock, Brodix,Trick flow or any other cylinder head manufacturer out there, on this website. He is a valuble asset to this forum. And he has raised the bar on small block Chevy cylinder heads.
I disagree.
If he brings valid information to this forum why not post it. If AFR is inflating numbers and private people aren't seeing those numbers we the consumer should see the difference. People are spending their hard earned bucks based on those numbers.
If what he posts is BS, yea he needs to quit hammering on AFR.
I think a good guy to clear up some of the AFR stuff would be Pete K when his heads arrive. I'd like to see those heads flowed out of the box and dynoed with a realistic cam/intake instead of these stupid non streetable/emission dyno tests we read about.

Last edited by hippy; 03-08-2007 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 03-08-2007, 08:18 AM   #10
d48mclain
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Originally Posted by tpi 421 vette View Post
You know what... you need to quit hammering on Tony from AFR. I don't see people on here from Dart, Edelbrock, Brodix,Trick flow or any other cylinder head manufacturer out there, on this website. He is a valuble asset to this forum. And he has raised the bar on small block Chevy cylinder heads.
No one is hammering anyone. Just keeping information posted honest and as factual as possible.

If you have something that is contrary to what I've posted that you can back up (I have the actual/origional flow sheets) please post it. I'm all eyes, ears n teeth to learn something. I can always be proved wrong...you just need to provide the proof.
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Old 03-08-2007, 08:23 AM   #11
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Old 03-08-2007, 10:23 AM   #12
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I have not read whole thread yet, but if u have USD 1400 than i would definetly go with AFR eliminater's 195cc. And make sure u port the runners of SR, may be porting required on SR base too, to take the advantage of those super flow AFR heads, see my sig for mads, and at the finish line rpm is 5500, and it passed emmissions too.
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Old 03-08-2007, 11:18 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by sami85L98 View Post
I have not read whole thread yet, but if u have USD 1400 than i would definetly go with AFR eliminater's 195cc. And make sure u port the runners of SR, may be porting required on SR base too, to take the advantage of those super flow AFR heads, see my sig for mads, and at the finish line rpm is 5500, and it passed emmissions too.
Out of the box, AFR is the way to go, I would also see what the extra cost would be backcut the valves for better low RPM flow.

Now, IMO, if you want to have them ported in the future, go with the Darts becasue they are mroe "port-able"
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Old 03-08-2007, 04:37 PM   #14
sxyvet
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hi there guys,
then afr 195 cc elimnator heads it is then!
cheers and thanks guys!
glen
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Old 03-08-2007, 08:37 PM   #15
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WOW...someone is a bit defensive about their product. As I stated...BOTH are great products. Just giving my "real" advice. I am not concerned w/light weight valves and etc...I am using titanium valves and jesel shaft mounted rockers. Just my opinion...and w/nothing but bowl work, mine flowed 310 @ 550 lift.
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Old 03-08-2007, 08:45 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by 97AGGIE View Post
WOW...someone is a bit defensive about their product. As I stated...BOTH are great products. Just giving my "real" advice. I am not concerned w/light weight valves and etc...I am using titanium valves and jesel shaft mounted rockers. Just my opinion...and w/nothing but bowl work, mine flowed 310 @ 550 lift.
So you are comparing Dart 230s with bowl work to what size AFR, just curious
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Old 03-08-2007, 08:55 PM   #17
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Was simply my opinion on what I used to run compared to what I have now gone with. Not trying to make anyone mad or anything. I used to have fully ported and rewelded AFR 195's (b/c walls were too thin). Got tired of having problems w/them and went w/the Dart's. Again..both have great products.
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Old 03-09-2007, 09:35 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by 97AGGIE View Post
Was simply my opinion on what I used to run compared to what I have now gone with. Not trying to make anyone mad or anything. I used to have fully ported and rewelded AFR 195's (b/c walls were too thin). Got tired of having problems w/them and went w/the Dart's. Again..both have great products.
Opinions based upon past experience along with the actual experience should be welcomed on this list with open arms and not discouraged nor used as an entry for a 30 second elevator commercial endorsement challenging the experience.

Like you, I also owned prior AFR heads and when I redid my combo (a true street car) went to a different brand of head. Not because of potential horsepower, but because of prior issues.

In going from a set of GTP LT4's to a set of AFR 227's in a 396ci block the car immediately ran 20 degrees hotter (same block) and had top end oil retention issues. I corrected the oil retention problem myself, but living in Dallas Texas the car was borderline and if you used the air-conditioning…..you had to turn it off in stop n go traffic or the temps would go sky high. It was for that reason AND the porter (nothing to do with AFR) fudged the flow sheets with car not making potential that I decided to replace the heads.

In researching other heads I went to a set of Trick Flows not because they would produce any more power, but the heads were designed with better cooling passages. Where the AFR's would run 190 degrees (with a 160 thermo) on the hwy, the Trick Flows run 167-170 degrees. At the end of a quarter mile pass the AFR heads would indicate 210-220 degrees while the Trick flows show 173-176 and cool right back down to 170.

Another issue is I've been hearing about the new revised AFR heads for three years and yet to see any now. You make one phone call and the Trick Flows can be sitting on your door step the next morning. You make six calls and maybe you see the AFR's in 3-4 months (when they become available).

I'm personally much more comfortable with the temp reduction in everyday driving as I don't want to watch the temp gauge more than I do the speedo. Plus, I have heads and know exactly how they perform, not promises based on iffy marketing material on how they will.
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Old 03-09-2007, 12:47 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by d48mclain View Post
Opinions based upon past experience along with the actual experience should be welcomed on this list with open arms and not discouraged nor used as an entry for a 30 second elevator commercial endorsement challenging the experience.

Like you, I also owned prior AFR heads and when I redid my combo (a true street car) went to a different brand of head. Not because of potential horsepower, but because of prior issues.

In going from a set of GTP LT4's to a set of AFR 227's in a 396ci block the car immediately ran 20 degrees hotter (same block) and had top end oil retention issues. I corrected the oil retention problem myself, but living in Dallas Texas the car was borderline and if you used the air-conditioning…..you had to turn it off in stop n go traffic or the temps would go sky high. It was for that reason AND the porter (nothing to do with AFR) fudged the flow sheets with car not making potential that I decided to replace the heads.

In researching other heads I went to a set of Trick Flows not because they would produce any more power, but the heads were designed with better cooling passages. Where the AFR's would run 190 degrees (with a 160 thermo) on the hwy, the Trick Flows run 167-170 degrees. At the end of a quarter mile pass the AFR heads would indicate 210-220 degrees while the Trick flows show 173-176 and cool right back down to 170.

Another issue is I've been hearing about the new revised AFR heads for three years and yet to see any now. You make one phone call and the Trick Flows can be sitting on your door step the next morning. You make six calls and maybe you see the AFR's in 3-4 months (when they become available).

I'm personally much more comfortable with the temp reduction in everyday driving as I don't want to watch the temp gauge more than I do the speedo. Plus, I have heads and know exactly how they perform, not promises based on iffy marketing material on how they will.
I believe AFR's are knew these cooling and oil consumption issues, with prior AFR heads and they eliminate these issues with New eliminater heads and thats how the name eliminater, well i guess.
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Old 03-09-2007, 01:29 PM   #20
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I believe AFR's are knew these cooling and oil consumption issues, with prior AFR heads and they eliminate these issues with New eliminater heads and thats how the name eliminater, well i guess.
As mentioned, if you have information validating the correction of prior problems please share it. My guess is what your saying MAY be true as they certainly knew thay had a few issues, but without validation and feedback from field use, it is only speculation.
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