C4in mesa

I have recently removed the starter and secured all connections. I had previously experienced problems with the ignition wire female spade connection becoming loose or coming off. That was fixed. I wrapped insulation around the heavy gauge positive wire so in case it ever were to come in contact with the header. Everything looked good and it started right up. I drove the car all day yesterday no issues. Conservative estimate from the time I got it working again I started it 30 times. 6 or 7 times on jack stands. Then out and about. However this morning the car started right up and the starter kept spinning. This happened to me several times while I was trying to fix the connection issue. After the fact I concluded the problem was from poor connections to the solenoid. Having started 30 times without one issue then back to the same old ? I am asking what check list do I run to determine where the problem is ?

WVZR-1

The drive "retracts" from the flywheel but still spins?

This is a Tilton style starter or OE OR?

C4in mesa

The drive retracts. It is a Summit 829000 starter.

WVZR-1

I believe Summit contracts their starter production to whom? I'd contact them with your particular problem. I believe they supply you with all of the required hardware and instructions for an install and you've got maybe separate issues. I do believe that some starter manufacturers will tell you a "whine" after cranking and key release is an indication of drive to ring gear gap is to tight. Is yours? I've no idea. I'd ask them first. Maybe yours being intermittent is the result of inconsistent gap around the entire circumference of the flywheel. I've actually "no idea".

C4in mesa

I think and this is from past experience (TOM has pointed out in the past) go through the check list first. So I got home a bit ago and plugged the battery back in. The starter spins. So I jacked the car back up. I unhooked the power from the battery to the starter. I then put a test light on without the key turned and the only hot wire is the one from the battery. The starter was spinning without the key being turned. Next I got back underneath the car reconnected the power connection to the solenoid. Reconnected the battery and turned the key and it functions normally. I turn the key 5 times and every turn it pops out and spins and shuts off when the key is off. What the hell is going on ? How can I correctly trouble shoot this issue ? I am afraid to bolt the starter back up and drive it as if nothing is wrong. Imagine being somewhere like a car show and the bendix won't stop.

WVZR-1

Summit services the solenoid and I believe that's the source of your problem. A fellow had a similar situation a couple weeks ago and his was some stray strands of wire that was hanging around.

Add a -S to the starter part number for a solenoid from them. How old is starter? If you're a regular/frequent customer you might be well taken care of. Sometimes you just need to ask.

C4in mesa

I appreciate your advice. It seems to me that a faulty solenoid is most likely. What has me stumped is how it works sometimes and not others ? A new solenoid is $26 from Summit. I will contact this week.

cardo0

I think u may have it wired wrong Mr. mesa. Or possibly the pinion gear is getting stuck in the flywheel because it wasnt clearance correctly when installed. I cant tell from 400 miles away how its wired or clearanced but the newer starters only use 3 wires to 2 solenoid terminals - they dont use the old coil bypass wire to the "R" terminal (if your solenoid has one).

So 2 red wires - one large from the batt and one 'bout 10 gauge that connects to the Positive junction somewhere on a fender and both wires connect on the same large solenoid stud terminal.
The last wire is from the ignition switch and was purple on the older C3 vettes (like mine) which goes to the "S" terminal.

U definitely dont want to use the "R" terminal on the starter solenoid (if there is one on yours).

I learned how to test my starter by disconnecting the short wire between the solenoid and the motor. That way i can test the solenoid with my little battery charger all i want and the starter motor wont turn. A small batt charger has enough amps/power to kick out that bendix gear and that indicates if the solenoid is working. So if u want to noodle the solenoid out u can disconnect one end of the wire between solenoid and starter motor. Then clamp your batt charger neg to the case of solenoid (or even the motor case should work) and the other positive wire clamp to the solenoid larger stud. When u touch another wire between the large stud with pos clamp connected to the "S" term on solenoid u should see the bendix gear kick out and when u pull that same wire off the gear should retract back in.

Whew! That enough for now. Let us know it works for u and good luck.

C4in mesa

I can guarantee that it isn't wired wrong.
Here us a picture of the solenoid and it's exactly as you describe.


I will run through your prescribed test to determine if the solenoid is functional. I have to ask if a solenoid can work sometimes and not others ? If this is the case I would replace it to solve the guessing game of whether it will start the car.

cardo0

I have to ask if a solenoid can work sometimes and not others ? If this is the case I would replace it to solve the guessing game of whether it will start the car.

Highly unlikely in a brand new starter. In an old used starter yes as i have that experience to share. The contactor inside - the copper disk that carries the full motor starting current - gets considerable errosion/damage from all the arcing going on when the solenoid pulls in the contacts to the disk. But not expected in a brand new or nearly new starter/solenoid. I learned when i was a kid on my '62 chevy that i could just pull the solenoid cover off and flip the contactor disk over to the unused side making the starter good to go again.

Replacing parts is never the best way to find a problem as it can get extremely expensive fast for sometimes a valueless open wire somewhere. But sometimes swapping parts does work if u have ready spares.

C4in mesa

My starter is almost 3 years old.

MavsAK

Electronics, aren't nearly as on or off as people like to think they are.
Sensors can work intermittently, amplifiers can do the same, same with relays, and solenoids.

Probably a solenoid, given the symptoms.
I notice you said header, if you've got headers one of the things I'd do after replacing the solenoid, is definitely put some thermotec heat shield wrap around your starter. Headers are brutal on starters.

C4in mesa

Yesterday I ordered a new solenoid from Summit. Exact fit. The website said no shipping if I order $100 of stuff. Being cheap or frugal whatever you want to call it I went ahead and ordered a heat shield for the starter. I also ordered some zip ties, a couple spare parts until it added up to $101. The solenoid was $26. Anyway having spent so much time under the car with this I am considering wrapping the headers with heat wrap and metal wire to secure it. Twist and snip the ends so it's nice and neat.

C4in mesa

I put the new solenoid on and connected the battery wire and starter connection. I double checked with my voltage meter and zero power to the starter wire. Double backed and checked the neutral safety switch. It has one hot wire with the key turned. The starter relay behind the SES display and it too has a hot connection with the key turned forward. Not sure what to do next ?

cardo0

So it wasnt the starter or solenoid at all. Obvious the starter wire your talking 'bout which should be the wire connected to the "S" term has no power then either a open inside the insulation or bad connection. U need to clean and tighten all the connections from starter/ig sw to starter solenoid. If still no power then replace the wire. U can also verify continuity with the resistance setting on your multimeter with power off. High resistance between ig sw and starter means open or bad connection. Also u can check for a grounded wire by measuring resistance from one end of wire (ig sw) to a good chassis ground/metal.

C4in mesa

I had power at both the solenoid battery connection and starter spade connection. I even got the car to fire once and took it for a spin. After getting back and parking it she wouldn't start again. Then I take the starter off again and the bendix wouldn't stop spinning until I disconnected the battery. After that crap I thought the solenoid was bad and replaced it. Now I have zero power at the wire for the starter connection. I had my voltage meter on it with someone turning the key. Only the battery wire is hot.
I don't know jack about wiring but I will test the wire using your instructions. Now it gets tricky. Where does the wire go ? I see the end that connects to the starter. It travels into a bundle with the knock sensor wire and the big wire that goes to the battery. It travels up along the firewall on the passenger side of the engine then I can't see where it goes ? If I run an independent wire I need to know where it starts ? I will need help with that task.

cardo0

Well if u dont understand wiring and electrical troubleshooting then it will take a very long time while on the learning curve. Maybe more money spent on parts u dont know how to verify. Your better off finding an electrician or auto electrical shop (there used to be a few - dont know today) to find and fix for u. Trying to troubleshoot over the internet is very difficult and can be stressful. Not fun for me. Im outa here.

coupeguy2001

It is possible that you have overheated the fusible link that runs the starter solenoid S terminal through your neutral start switch.
It is fusibile link A. check for continuity. disconnect the battery to do so.
That wire goes to your ign. switch, then through the neutral start switch, to solenoid and the aux fuse block.
Find your fuse labeled c inj/clu. If that has no power then the fusible link is bad. BUT, if it is powered, it is something else.
But I bet it's that.
Assuming there's nothing wrong with the vats, you should be able to get a new fusible link at autozone or NAPA for a couple bucks.

Also check the engine to body/ and battery ground wire and the battery terminals for tightness and cleanliness.

um....... I have a nice chrome geared GM starter for $120 if it proves out that something inside your starter is no good.

C4in mesa

I will get back under the car this weekend. I work out in the desert sun so my energy or desire to get under the car isn't there M-F. I will post the results Sunday. I have considered checking the VATS bypass just to be sure. I had that done 3 years ago.