Kubs

Please help me pick some valvetrain for my engine build. I am not sure how to know what spring pressure to use, what spring O.D., single or dual, beehive?, etc...

The heads are 113s with stock valves, but have been ported a bit and gasket matched to a 1205. I will be using LS7 lifters and the cam is a custom grind hyd roller with the following specs:

Adv Duration: 275/284
@0.050": 221/228
Lift w/ 1.6rr: 0.550/0.556
LSA: 111
ICL: 107

What would be a good spring pressure to use? What kind of installed height should I look for using the stock valves (I think its around 1.7?)? Obviously I will get new retainers and seats to match as well. This is a budget build so I'm not looking for something crazy, just standard and reliable. Im shooting for a 6500 RPM redline, and I would like to keep the price around $200-$250 for springs, retainers, and locks if possible.

pmihaltian

rklessdriver

With stock valves in those heads you'll be able to get 1.750, maybe 1.800 with .050 up retainers/locks. Alot depends on what spring cups/locators you end up using... which depends on what OD/ID springs you want to use....

That cam should need about 110-150lbs seat pressure and 320-380lbs open pressure.... Since your building a race engine I'd err on the higher side (if possible) of those recommendations.

Some of the Beehive springs will work fine. Personally I don't really like them because they have no safety net at all when they break. They do have some advantages thou and if you buy a quality spring, breakage is not a big factor. Problem there is the PAC and PSI springs that are worth buying won't meet your $$$$ limits.

I caution you not to buy the 1.250/1.260 single w/damper springs. Some will meet the lift and pressure requirements but they won't last on a hyd roller.

Which IMO leaves the old tried and true 1.437-1.460 dual springs.

Crane PN 99893 ($140)
Competition Products 10* Ti retainers PN 3560 ($107)
VTO 10* locks PN 4413 ($20)

OR (cheaper steel retainers/locks)

VTO 7* CM retainers PN 3437 ($40)
VTO 7* locks PN 4134 ($15)

I'd need to know the OD of your valve guides to tell you what spring seats to buy.

All those PN's and prices (which I rounded up slightly) can be found on the Competition Products/Howards Cams web site.
Will

Kubs

Will,

You have come through again for me! I called Bullet Cams and they recommended springs with about 130lb seat and 350 lbs open, and also suggested beehive. Sounds like the pressures are good, but I too was uneasy about the beehive springs.

As far as the guides, I will have to check with the guy who ported them, but Im pretty sure he left the OEM ones in since they looked good. I will check and get back to you.



Edit: Those Crane springs show around 400lbs open pressure. That is not high enough to wipe out a cam lobe is it? I don't think I have a billet core...

rklessdriver

They show 400LBS@1.170..

With the Crane 99893 on your cam, if you set up at 1.800 (135lbs) you'd be down to 1.244@.556 lift which is right about 355lbs.

Another spring to consider is the Elgin PN ELGRV-9902ZK ($72) which would have 120lbs@1.800 and about 329lbs@1.244... this spring is sold in packs of 8, so if you like it remember to buy 2 packages.

Yet another spring is the Hi-Tec Racing Products PN HTC 2443 ($75). It would be 150LBS@1.800 and about 325lbs@1.244.

On a cast core hyd roller cam with good oil your going to be OK with any of those springs....

Will

PLRX

Kubs

Thanks Will. I do like the Crane springs. Also, are those Ti retainers you mentioned the "tall" version or would I have to set the spring at 1.800" using the proper spring seat?

rklessdriver

I used a set of those Ti retainers on Sportsman dirt track engine a while back and even thou they are not advertised as such, they did have some increase in install height (over some steel 10* retainers I had in the shop)... Now the matching 10* locks I gave you the PN number to are advertised as +.035...

I don't think you'll have any problems making the 1.800 install height using them, but of course you never know 100% until you have all the parts and start measuring set up heights.....

You should be able to measure your set up height as it is now - With the stock retainer and locks (no factory spring locator)... Figure you've got an increase of .035 for the locks and probally .020-.030 for the Ti retainers - Then subtract .062 for the new spring seat/locator (all the aftermarket ones are .062)..... and have a good idea of how it's going to work out.....

And there are +.050 locks available if you need them.

When you get a chance take a caliper and measure the OD of your valve guide where it meets the casting/spring seat or measure the ID of the hole in the factory spring seat so I can figure out what spring seats/locators you'll need. Most aftermarket ones are .570 or .630 ID and you want the spring seat/locator to fit as close to the guide as possible.... You may need to machine the factory guide.
Will

Kubs

Great! The guy doing the porting has my heads. I called but didnt get a hold of him. When i can get those dimensions I'll let you know.

rklessdriver

No worries. I'll check back on this thread tomorrow after work.

If I forget or miss anything just drop me a PM.
Will

Crepitus

Nice write up rklessdriver! Plz dont PM, when this one is done it will be print to file and saved.

Kubs

Will,

The guides are .560 but apparently either I didnt give him the factory retainers, or he doesnt have them anymore. He found some retainers he had laying around and but got such a wide range of install height it doesnt really help.

Im guessing these are seats I can use?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4776-16/

or these:

http://www.competitionproducts.com/S...uctinfo/42130/

Aardwolf

If you do business with comp and have a question, ask to speak to Patterson. He built some of my engine, is very knowledgeable, and works at comp.

rklessdriver

Yes, either one of those spring seat/locators are .570 ID so they will fit the guide nicely and both will also work with the Crane springs. They will locate the spring on the inner step.

Just so you know, the 1.550 OD spring seats/locators may be kinda close to the head bolts... depends on what head bolts you use but sometimes you have to grind a spot on the spring seat/locators for socket clearance.... it'll be evident when he's putting them together if he will need to grind them or not.

I know the spring pockets are raised up from the casting floor on the 113 head but I don't know if there is any flashing around some of them that might need to be trimmed away for the new spring seats/locators to fit..... (since the stock ones are only 1.260 OD and the new ones will be 1.550 OD)....

Your cyl head guy may need to cut the head (spring pockets), but it's an easy job and the cutter is really cheap - If he doesn't already have one.

http://www.competitionproducts.com/S...ductinfo/4719/

http://www.competitionproducts.com/V...ductinfo/4732/

Also, a couple of things I don't want to leave unsaid.

Once he gets your new retainers and locks, make sure he mocks them up on a head w/valves and makes sure of your retainer to guide/valve seal clearance, because .566 lift is a lot of lift without machining those factory guides down.

The inner diameter of the Crane spring is .700 so he needs to be sure whatever valve seals you're using are not going to touch/get hung up in the inner spring as well.....

I don't know what your cyl head guy has already done (or not done) on your heads so forgive me if he's already got this stuff under control. I just want to make sure I cover everything possible with these parts and their set up - So nothing unexpected pops up.

I'm not going to speculate on why he's getting such a difference in setup heights.... Could be a few things but without seeing it first hand I have no way to tell.

This stuff is good quality for the $$$$ and should work really well for you. I hope you get your new engine together soon. If you need anything else let me know.
Will

Kubs

All wonderful information. I will be sure to check clearance all around the seat. The head bolts are ARP with 12pt heads so I think socket clearance is ok but not sure on the washer under the bolt.

I've read that the stock guides on 113s can only clear .525 lift so i knew going in guide clearance was going to be an issue.

For valve seals, in the past I have used just Fel-Pro from Autozone or local store. I think I remember you posting about VTO viton or teflon seals a while back. I assume those are a better choice? Will they clear the inside of the spring better?

Kubs

Do you mean Comp Cams or Competition Products? I think I will be getting my valvetrain from Competition Products. Thanks for the tip.

Aardwolf

Competition products, he does cam grinds etc there. Good guy!

rklessdriver

I use Viton seals or the metal clad Viton seals (on really small ID springs).... I have used the VTO seals on a few Methanol burning drag racing engines but they do seem to allow a good bit of oil by... I have not used Teflon seals since the 1990's.

Most of them are .500 or .530 OD, so to use any of them you'll have to cut the guides to one of those sizes.

The ID of those Crane springs is .700 - With the stock .560 OD guide, that won't leave much room for seals. Springs move around a lot at RPM and I like to have .050-.060 min clearance to the seal.... I've never measured the OD of one of those stock Fel Pro seals but I'd bet it's going to be tight.
Will